How do you deal with Islam?
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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Actually no. Pre-October 7 I was running in circles about what to do with Israel Palestine. You are still there. Now I am looking at a straight line towards resolution. So long as the rest of the world runs around in the land for peace circle, there will never be peace. The world must condemn and then obliterate chronic and barbaric Jew hatred for peace to happen. I’m not holding my breath.
400,000 died for Jews? Did Japan kill Jews? Your sense of history is seriously warped.
Separation of church and state? Do you expect the same out of Israel's enemies?
Stop the talking points and evaluate yourself.
Goat, thanks for the clarification of my clumsy wording using the word created.
Should of said a UN Resolution laid the basis within international law and diplomacy for the creation of the state of Israel.
Wasn't this was the first recognition by an international body of the legitimacy of a Jewish state, to exist ?
I think you're downplaying the deeply antisemitic nature of the populace of those countries. I believe it's a mistake to attribute animosity towards Israel at this point to just bad leadership in those countries.
They teach antisemitism in their schools. They teach kids what HooiserJimbo has been writing here: that the Israelis are equivalent to the Nazis. IMO that deep cultural indoctrination is going to take a very long time to eradicate, if it even can be.
Oh, believe me, I agree with all of that. However, even with all of that, what I said was true. Egypt has normalized relations with Israel. Turkey has. Jordan has. The Saudis were on the cusp of doing so. That would be the first or second step towards changing hearts in the region. All of this has happened or was about to happen with the Palestinian question unresolved. Hamas is able to be a fly in the ointment because of the position they control.
My secular belief is that the Israelis control the ground. The Palestinians exist at their leisure. If they were their Arab neighbors they would have kicked the Palestinians out years ago, just like what happened to Arab Jews across the region. I don't believe there can be a Palestinian state with Gaza included. It makes the borders untenable. The people in Gaza wouldn't like it (obviously) but the easiest solution would be to relocate then from a smaller area and with a smaller population. The only reason to move the Jews is because of an underlying belief that they don't belong there to begin with.
My religious view is that none of the secular matters, none of what Israel does matters, and that God is eventually going to sort it out so this is all just mental masturbation anyway.
The two state solution-- or at least a meaningful one, was the Balfour Declaration in 1919 or somewhere around that time frame. There was to be what was called a "national home for the Jewish people", with the balance of Palestine reminding under control of the Ottoman Empire, which had controlled Palestine for 400 years. That was not was not met favorably by the Arabs--much like after WW2. So getting a two state solution, while seemingly reasonable on its face, is nigh impossible.
The bottom line, this all so tragic at so many levels. So many innocents who have been killed on both sides, which is always what happens when religion --specifically religions based upon revelation and revealed wisdom are involved. You do raise a good point, although certainly one that I would not justify the slaughter of innocents for, is that the settlement on the west bank has been, will be so in the future, a flash point.
There's a lot of history in this area. One of my good buddies is Palestinian, and his family had owned the same property for centuries. Until they didn't--and from his perspective (and likely the perspective of many Palestinians), nobody cared.
The bottom line for me is little kids and young men and women for both sides who are innocent were killed and will continue to get killed, and it is terrible. Surely, this was not all revealed wisdom......
Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism, and the Holocaust does not permit Israel to behave however they want to. I would like to think they learned something about how they were treated and not do it to others. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are some similarities of Israel and the Nazis. As somebody who is a fan of democracy, the human rights and peace we have in America, and how we treat minorities and Native Americans, I have a problem with how Israel has treated Palestinians. My tax money helps fund Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians, and a lot of Americans died in WW2 for Jews: I expect better.
Peace is possible. The immediate surrounding Arab states have not gone to war with Israel since 1973. They may not like Israel for the most part, but they're not bombing them and are co-existing. A clear two-state solution was agreed to in the Oslo accords. Israel is occupying and expanding in West Bank instead of making it a Palestinian state in accordance with Oslo. Israel wants to keep the 80 year conflict going, so they get it.
I hope you are right. For the sake of the youth of the world, it has to happen. Will it? I don't know.
Nice post. you might say instead of hundreds of Hamas hostages there are millions if you consider those Palestinians who only want a normal peaceful life. The problem is the Jew-hating bomb throwers are in control and their hold on Gaza and the West Bank is given traction and cover by many in the West. I personally think much of the Wests Hamas sympathy is driven by a well-orchestrated misinformation campaign.
I don’t think a two state solution is viable now. The key is Iran, but we don’t address that. It would also be nice if the Arab nations in the region were more sympathetic and welcoming of Palestinians. But they aren’t.
Nobody likes Hamas: that would be a mischaracterization. The assholes in charge on both sides don't want peace and don't mind killing innocent civilians: that is the problem.
Nobody likes a bully/oppressor. I think many people around the globe are finally educating themselves about the situation instead of giving Israel carte blanche because of the Holocaust. Israel is a bully/oppressor, which is sad because of their history of being persecuted.
Jordan has provided the West Bank, Egypt has provided Gaza, and the surrounding Arab states already have many Palestinian immigrants. They have done enough. They are calling Israel out for their BS of trying to cleanse the area of Palestinians and not using the provided land for a 2 state solution, as they should.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#:~:text=Based on the Israeli definition,100% of the Gaza Strip.
Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap).[8][10] From the Palestinian perspective this equated to an offer of a Palestinian state on a maximum of 86% of the West Bank.[8]
According to Robert Wright, Israel would only keep the settlements with large populations. Wright states that all others would be dismantled, with the exception of Kiryat Arba (adjacent to the holy city of Hebron), which would be an Israeli enclave inside the Palestinian state, and would be linked to Israel by a bypass road. The West Bank would be split in the middle by an Israeli-controlled road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians, although Israel reserved the right to close the road to passage in case of emergency. In return, Israel would allow the Palestinians to use a highway in the Negev to connect the West Bank with Gaza. Wright states that in the Israeli proposal, the West Bank and Gaza Strip would be linked by an elevated highway and an elevated railroad running through the Negev, ensuring safe and free passage for Palestinians. These would be under the sovereignty of Israel, and Israel reserved the right to close them to passage in case of emergency.[11]
Israel would retain around 9% in the West Bank in exchange for 1% of land within the Green Line. The land that would be conceded included symbolic and cultural territories such as the Al-Aqsa Mosque, whereas the Israeli land conceded was unspecified. Additional to territorial concessions, Palestinian airspace would be controlled by Israel under Barak's offer.[11][12] The Palestinians rejected the Halutza Sand region (78 km2) alongside the Gaza Strip as part of the land swap on the basis that it was of inferior quality to that which they would have to give up in the West Bank.[8]
That is part of the article. That being said, I think there is enough blame to go around on both sides for the Summit's failure, and peace talks/efforts need to continue until a settlement is reached.
"Clinton's initiative led to the Taba negotiations in January 2001, where the two sides published a statement saying they had never been closer to agreement (though such issues as Jerusalem, the status of Gaza, and the Palestinian demand for compensation for refugees and their descendants remained unresolved)".
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Peace has to be the end result. I'm really sorry to see more of an effort to bomb and kill civilians than to sit their asses down and hammer something out. If the leaders on both sides need to have a meeting a day until a settlement occurs, then do it.
Agreements mean nothing unless both sides want it and are willing to abide by it. The 16th century barbarism of October 7 shows me that Hamas‘ mindset is not about an agreement. It’s about killing Jews.
So they were super close to an agreement yeah? The Israelis, even though they have the upper hand as reality stood and stands on the ground offered the Palestinians 100% of Gaza and in excess of 90% of the West Bank (73% up front and the rest to come over time as to allow for the removal of the existing Israeli presence there.) That was rejected and then what happened?
I will help you. The second intifada was launched. It lasted 5 years, collectively killed around 5,000 people, eventually led to the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza completely, and then the subsequent election of Hamas and the ensuing Civil War where Hamas eliminated the Fatah competition in Gaza.
The Palestinians are not a good faith negotiating partner.
There are absolutely people on both sides that want total victory and to totally cleanse the land of the other side. Unfortunately, these people are in charge. The conflict has been ongoing since 1947 for a reason. I certainly think 80 years where both sides still exist and the only result is a stack of bodies is enough to toss the total victory theory into the waste bin. Until leadership changes and more effort is geared towards peace, it will just be more of the same and the body stack will grow higher.
I would argue erecting apartheid walls, herding a minority into a confined area within these walls, restricting their movements, and then bombing the area is pretty barbaric. If it looks like a concentration camp, acts like a concentration camp, walks like a concentration camp.....
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Both sides stated that they were never closer to an agreement: their words, not mine. So, ass needs to continue to meet chair in the negotiating room until something is hammered out instead of killing civilians: that goes for both sides.
As usual, more Palestinians died during the 2nd Intifada. Israel erects apartheid walls and occupies Gaza and the West Bank. Israel settles further into West Bank areas meant for Palestinians. Once again, there are enough bad guys on both sides to go around. It takes 2 to tango.
Respectfully, if you and I are having a disagreement over the location of our property line and we are agreed to all but a few feet, you tell me this is the closest we have ever been to an agreement and I agree with you, and then you sucker punch me I kind of figure you and that prior agreement can get ****ed. Everything after you punch me is all on you.
ETA: And if you are 120 lbs soaking wet and I am a trained prize fighter and I beat the shit out of you in response to you punching me, that is also your fault. You knew the score before you threw the punch.
The walls went up in the early 90’s, not because Israel suddenly decided it wanted walls. They were in response to random suicide bombers, knifings, and other Palestinian acts of terror. Peace is in the hands of Hamas. They aren’t interested.
What has violence solved? I'm truly sorry both sides and you feel like violence and perpetual war is the answer.
You keep making some really bizarre and ignorant historical statements. How do you figure that "a lot of Americans died in WW2 for Jews?"
Do you believe the reason the United States entered WW2 was to save the Jews? Do you have a historical text or known historian to support that notion?
The US fought the Nazis, correct? The Nazis weren't very nice to the Jews, correct? The US did Jews quite the solid in WW2.
Did it take "bad guys on both sides" and "2 to tango" in WW 2? Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Should Ukraine not use violence to repel Russia's violence?
I think you are stuck on a double standard. If you are ok with a final solution for the Palestinians, I would agree to disagree. The US provided compensation to the Native Americans, and Israel must do the same if they are a civilized, true democracy.
The Jews invaded Palestine and took the land by conquest: are the Jews the Russians or Nazis? Do Palestinians have the right to repel the Jewish invaders?
I believe the Nazis were the bad guys during WW2. They were invading other's land and practicing ethnic cleansing.
So, the US didn't fight Germany during WW2, the Nazis were nice to the Jews, and the US did not do any favors to the Jews by stopping the Nazis. Little different from what I read in history books, but I'll take your word for it.
Are you actually insinuating that the U.S. entered the war because of the Jewish persecution by the Nazis?
First, to quote Heinlein:
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms.”
I don't feel violence is THE answer, I feel it is an answer. Hopefully it would be the answer of last resort. I don't believe perpetual war is the answer. I think thinking such as yours is forcing perpetual war on this particular situation though. They were at the table and close and the weakest party to the talks walked away from that near agreement and engaged in violence as a negotiating tactic. I believe bowing to that technique with no response invites more of that (effective) negotiating technique. The Israelis trade 1,000 prisoners a few years back for 1 man. In the Oct. 7 attacks, some of the Hamas members were Saud to have referred to that exchange rate in the taking of the people who were "lucky" enough to be taken hostage as opposed to a young teenager raped and murdered in her own home.
The violence needs to happen. We have forced these people to deal with each other when they don't want to. They need to be allowed to finish the fight, one of them has to lose. I welcome violence to the people who did what they did to that girl. I don't celebrate it. You don't celebrate the death of the wolf who is killing your flock of sheep. He is doing what he does and you must do what you need to do. It is a grim business but the talks have failed, the punches have been thrown, and it is time to end the fight.
I didn't perform a total WW2 lecture, nor did I intend to. I'm aware of Pearl Harbor, and there are many facets of WW2. Germany and Japan declared war on the US. One of the enemies that the US fought was Germany. Germany was not very nice to the Jews. The US certainly did the Jews a solid by stopping Germany's oppression of the Jews.
If you don't believe that the US did Jews a solid by helping end Germany's persecution of them, I will agree to disagree.
The Muslims invaded and kicked out, killed, and forced converted the Jews and Christians in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, the Indian Subcontinent, East Asia, and Indonesia over the course of 1400 years. History didn't start in the 20th century.
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It sounds like you are also fine with a Final Solution for the Palestinians, agree to disagree: this isn't what America stands for. Most wars end with some kind of an agreement and truce.
It sure is easy to advocate violence when you aren't involved. Perhaps if you were involved, you would have a different opinion. Go join the IDF, get some blood on your hands.
It sounds like you are also fine with a Final Solution for the Palestinians, agree to disagree: this isn't what America stands for. Most wars end with some kind of an agreement and truce.
I am fine with the same "final solution" that was imposed on Germany and Japan. Fight them until their complete capitulation so that their broken society can be rebuilt to join the rest of humanity in this century as opposed to the one where what happened to the girl discussed in the video I linked or the dragging of dead women through your streets leads you to exclaim how great your (false) god is because of the havoc you have wreaked.
I don't want them annihilated, I want to drag them into respectability.
The Palestinians have been rounded up into a concentration camp. You should go over to Israel and volunteer to push the button for the nuclear weapon that is dropped on them. I'm sure you will sleep very well at night and be able to look at yourself in the mirror with hundreds of thousands of deaths on your hands. You will be in unique company with Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin: real good guys.
I'm glad you have finally admitted that you are ok with mass murder and genocide.
You keep bringing up the Native Americans and the deal they got. I really don't think that is making the point you want to make. "Hey Palestinians, let me just wipe out the majority of you, kick you out of all the land, and then give you a nice autonomous zone here in the Negev Desert. You're welcome."
Oh get up off your fainting couch. Did we mass murder and genocide the Japanese and Germans? No. So stop being such a drama queen.
ETA: I don't want to nuke anyone but I would drop a bomb on Hamas members at the push of a button, then have an ice cream sundae right before having the best sleep of my life.
