How do you deal with Islam?
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
- Start date
Zionism is, indeed, based on a Jewish homeland. That isn't equivalent to racism nor does the motivation for it have to include a feeling of racial superiority. Jews have a lot of reasons to want their own homeland to protect themselves. Comparing the Palestinian plight over the last 80 years to Jewish history the last hundred or two years is ridiculous.Zionism is based on a Jewish homeland. You really think non-jews in this society are considered the same? I literally just summed up the terrible treatment of Palestinians, and I in no way excused the actions of Hamas.
Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity
Israeli authorities must be held accountable for committing the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, Amnesty International said today in a damning new report. The investigation details how Israel enforces a system of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it has...www.amnesty.org
Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Israeli settler accused of involvement in killing of Palestinian moved to house arrest
A Jerusalem court says that an Israeli settler suspected of involvement in the killing a 19-year-old Palestinian man in the West Bank last week has been released from detention and transferred to house arrest.apnews.com
West Bank demolitions and displacement: An overview | January - March 2023 - occupied Palestinian territory
Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights and Shelter and Non-Food Items; published on 3 May 2023 by OCHAreliefweb.int
Regarding the conditions and status of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, it's much more complicated than a simple "I know an oppressor when I see one" analysis. I'd suggest adding to and adjusting your simplistic paradigm of oppressor v. oppressed if you want to have an understanding of how the world works. That paradigm is clouding your judgment and ability to admit the tactics of Hamas are much more severe and outside the norms of civilized society.
International law recognizes the difference:
Israel, Gaza: What are the rules of international law? – DW – 10/22/2023
Israel is retaliating after the Hamas terrorist attacks with massive bombings, a total blockade of the Gaza Strip and possibly a ground offensive. What is covered by international law — and what constitutes a war crime?
www.dw.com
You must be a fast reader. Which of the articles would you like to discuss first? I will say it again: the extremist parts of both sides suck, including Hamas.Zionism is, indeed, based on a Jewish homeland. That isn't equivalent to racism nor does the motivation for it have to include a feeling of racial superiority. Jews have a lot of reasons to want their own homeland to protect themselves. Comparing the Palestinian plight over the last 80 years to Jewish history the last hundred or two years is ridiculous.
Regarding the conditions and status of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, it's much more complicated than a simple "I know an oppressor when I see one" analysis. I'd suggest adding to and adjusting your simplistic paradigm of oppressor v. oppressed if you want to have an understanding of how the world works. That paradigm is clouding your judgment and ability to admit the tactics of Hamas are much more severe and outside the norms of civilized society.
International law recognizes the difference:
Israel, Gaza: What are the rules of international law? – DW – 10/22/2023
Israel is retaliating after the Hamas terrorist attacks with massive bombings, a total blockade of the Gaza Strip and possibly a ground offensive. What is covered by international law — and what constitutes a war crime?
"Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them”. - Benjamin Netanyahu
Last edited:
You're wasting your time. HoosierJimbo would rather blame Israelis than be outraged by the rape, torture, mutilation, burning of civilian Jews. He thinks that's the equivalent of bombing the cowards hiding among civilians.Zionism is, indeed, based on a Jewish homeland. That isn't equivalent to racism nor does the motivation for it have to include a feeling of racial superiority. Jews have a lot of reasons to want their own homeland to protect themselves. Comparing the Palestinian plight over the last 80 years to Jewish history the last hundred or two years is ridiculous.
Regarding the conditions and status of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, it's much more complicated than a simple "I know an oppressor when I see one" analysis. I'd suggest adding to and adjusting your simplistic paradigm of oppressor v. oppressed if you want to have an understanding of how the world works. That paradigm is clouding your judgment and ability to admit the tactics of Hamas are much more severe and outside the norms of civilized society.
International law recognizes the difference:
Israel, Gaza: What are the rules of international law? – DW – 10/22/2023
Israel is retaliating after the Hamas terrorist attacks with massive bombings, a total blockade of the Gaza Strip and possibly a ground offensive. What is covered by international law — and what constitutes a war crime?
You just can't reason with that kind of thinking.
So, it is ok that Israel has killed almost 6,000 Palestinians after Hamas' actions? I'll say it again: the extremist sides of both sides suck.
You need to understand that picking fights with strangers on the internet and name calling destroys any credibility you may have. I had you on ignore for a reason.
It's Hamas' fault they are hiding among civilians. They're responsible for the deaths of the Israelis and Arabs.
It's laughable you don't expect Israel to retaliate for that slaughter. You really should be ashamed of yourself.
That is a double standard. It's not okay for anybody to kill civilians. You think it's okay to kill civilians, and I'm the one that should be ashamed?
I have no way of evaluating each of your limpnks. But as a general matter we know misinformation is an important part of Hamas’ anti-Jew mission and that misinformation is readily amplified by the Western press. An example is the news about 500 people who died in the hospital that was never bombed.Zionism is based on a Jewish homeland. You really think non-jews in this society are considered the same? I literally just summed up the terrible treatment of Palestinians, and I in no way excused the actions of Hamas.
Guess who said this? “Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the
nation-state of the Jewish people and only them”. Hint: the PM
Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity
Israeli authorities must be held accountable for committing the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, Amnesty International said today in a damning new report. The investigation details how Israel enforces a system of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it has...
Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia
Israeli settler accused of involvement in killing of Palestinian moved to house arrest
A Jerusalem court says that an Israeli settler suspected of involvement in the killing a 19-year-old Palestinian man in the West Bank last week has been released from detention and transferred to house arrest.
West Bank demolitions and displacement: An overview | January - March 2023 - occupied Palestinian territory
Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights and Shelter and Non-Food Items; published on 3 May 2023 by OCHA
Five Palestinians killed as Israeli forces raid West Bank camp
At least 91 were wounded as Israeli soldiers stormed the Jenin camp, backed by the rare use of helicopter gunships.www.google.com
Israel's increased strikes across Gaza kill more than 700 people in the past day, Palestinians say
An overnight strike hit a four-story residential building in the southern city of Khan Younis, killing at least 32 people and wounding scores of others, according to survivors.www.pbs.org
Palestinian children abused in Israeli detention: NGO
Some of the abuses are sexual in nature, in addition to being beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded, a report says.
Sheikh Jarrah controversy - Wikipedia
Hamas Network Spreads Dangerous Disinformation
The social threat intelligence company Cyabra said Hamas and its supporters are successfully spreading propaganda and disinformation online, The Jerusalem Post reported on October...
www.fdd.org
I am a fast reader. I'm also able to decipher when someone is just throwing up links to cases or episodes that aren't on point in an effort to make their case look stronger than it really is.
String cites are rarely persuasive, unless you can really nail the parentheticals and they stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise, you lose credibility with the reader pretty quickly.
I didn't take issue with the notion that the extremists on both sides suck. I took issue with you drawing a moral equivalency between (1) Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the Nazi's treatment of the Jews, and (2) the terrorist tactics of Hamas on October 7 and the Israeli response in bombing buildings in an attempt to destroy Hamas military targets.
That didn’t work the first time. I blame Arafat and Palestine.
You told me to provide evidence, and I did! Let me know when you have read and want to talk about one of the articles or even just the topic addressed.
Let's start with the PM's statement I posted: what do you think of that? Do you believe that Israel has created an apartheid?
Israel has killed 6,000 Palestinians since Hamas' actions. You agree that the extremist parts of both sides suck. Why is it okay for Israel to kill 6,000 people?
Like I said - it's useless to talk to someone who see moral equivalence in this.
Listen to your President when he says there are not two sides to this.
So, you don't believe that Israel has killed any people after Hamas' actions? You believe that any negative article about Israel is part of an anti-Jewish conspiracy?I have no way of evaluating each of your limpnks. But as a general matter we know misinformation is an important part of Hamas’ anti-Jew mission and that misinformation is readily amplified by the Western press. An example is the news about 500 people who died in the hospital that was never bombed.
Hamas Network Spreads Dangerous Disinformation
The social threat intelligence company Cyabra said Hamas and its supporters are successfully spreading propaganda and disinformation online, The Jerusalem Post reported on October...
I will recognize how the US has treated the Native Americans and how Israel has utterly failed to do the same. I'm for peace, not a double standard of murder. You are literally justifying murder of civilians. I will not excuse poor behavior on either side.
I gave you a link to a discussion of Zionism. I've spelled out why believing your state should be solely for your own religion/people is important and unique for Jews. It's because of their history, and not a feeling of racial superiority--indeed, if anything, it's based on an inferiority, a recognition that the world wants to kill them and they want to protect themselves.
Serious question: do you have Jewish friends who are supporters of Israel? Or Israeli friends? Would you talk this way with them?
I don't think the Israeli response has been driven by extremists. It saddens me that so many people have died and that more will die. But this is war, and that's what happens in a war. And I fully lay the blame for this war on Hamas, just as I lay the blame for Russian deaths not on Ukraine, but on Russia. Israel has to defend itself and has to eliminate Hamas's ability to do what they did ever again. Biden is right on this.
Moreover, Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians. They are letting Palestinians know they are going to target and bomb their buildings in many (I don't know if it's all) instances.
You've never once condemned the slaughter of Israelis as much as you go on about Israel being an oppressor.
You're not interested in peace whatsoever. You're interested in Israelis being slaughtered with impunity.
Let me get this straight: you are now comparing the treatment of Native Americans by the United States and its settlers to the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel, and you find Israel's conduct wanting?
Wow.
As for your use of the word "murder," you're wrong as a matter of law and common usage.
The prime minister stated that Israel is only for Jewish people: he would disagree with you. Israel favors Jewish people. There are inherent democratic issues with this: look no further than the 1st and 14th Amendments. Separation of church and state and equal protection are important, and it is kind of impossible for these ideals to exist in Israel.
I have told Israeli citizens on the internet that Israel needs to return every cent of monetary aid that the US has ever given them. 400,000 US soldiers in WW2 already died for Jews, and they didn't die so Israel can oppress somebody else and create Apartheid. It makes me sick that America helps funds this conflict.
This conflict has been going on since 1947. Palestinians fight with terror because they have nothing. Israel fights with a military because they have the means. If they would settle with the Palestinians and grant them land, equal citizenship rights, and basic democratic and human rights, the conflict would largely be over. The US did this with the Indians.
Last edited:
The US won the land through conquest. The US took land from the Native Americans and conquered them. The US did treat Native Americans terribly. However, they created a truce by giving them land, money, equal citizenship, and basic democratic and human rights. Israel hasn't completed the conflict and achieved peace because they haven't completed this final task, and they will receive zero respect from me until they do.
5A: "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." When you take property from somebody, you compensate them. Israel needs to compensate Palestinians somehow, and they can do it with land that Jordan and Egypt have already provided. When people have a home, money, rights, and a decent standard of living, they calm down.
Last edited:
You either aren't reading what I'm writing, not understanding it, or I'm not communicating very well, so I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere. At least not tonight.
Regarding the US treatment of the Native Americans, I think you're only remembering a tiny fraction of the story. Try reading Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States or An Indigenous People's History of the United States. I'm guessing you'll really like them both.
I would never say that the US treated the Native Americans well. However, I would not be proud to be an American if they did not receive compensation, equal citizenship, etc. in the end.
How do you think a Palestinian's history of Israel would read? Just as looking at the US from a Native American's perspective would be very different from a white person's, I'm guessing their view of Israel and reality would be much different from yours or many American's view and reality.
I haven't read Zinn: it has been on the list. I'm reading Dune right now (when I have time).
You've made it clear who you blame. It doesn't matter. Israel will have to make concessions if they want peace.
Respectfully, your opinion is built on a whole host of incorrect information. 2 Arabs in the neighborhood made peace with Israel after 1967 and that was only after another war in 1972 that had Israel on the ropes for a minute. They aren't going back to the pre-1967 borders with a 9 mile stretch of land between people shouting "From the river to the sea" that would lead to the country being cut in half in another conflict.
Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat a state that included all of Gaza and the majority of the West Bank in 2000. Arafat rejected it and started another terrorist campaign (Second Intifada) in response.
The real solution is staring everyone in the face but it is too terrible for modern sensibilities so we will continue to let the issue fester forever. The Palestinians aren't changing their minds and the Israelis aren't going to rubber stamp another Lebanon breathing down their neck anytime soon. So the Palestinian people will continue to hold onto their delusions of retaking all of Israel while they rot in squalor. And we will have big and small incidents like 10/7 where the Palestinians (who are constantly firing rockets at Israel) do enough to piss the Israelis off so a response is required. A cycle of dead Jews and Palestinians because nobody wants to face the reality of the situation. Gaza should be peacefully depopulated and the West Bank split up between Israel and Jordan. That is ethnic cleansing though so instead of doing chemo we let the cancer fester.
They don't have to make concessions. There isn't any concessions they could make that would lead to a real peace deal anyway. That includes a return to the 1948 borders.
I understand that one group has a stated objective to wipe out the other, & that your claim is conjecture.
Thanks for being the only honest person on here. Lots clearly agree with you, but none will say it.
It isn't doable so it is hypothetical as well. They wouldn't peacefully depopulate and next to no one will support a forced depopulation (myself included, the Palestinians represent a whole host of things I am not a fan of but I'm not a genocidal lunatic) including the Israelis themselves. However, if we were talking about a way to hypothetically make peace, waving a wand and magically transporting all of the Palestinians out of Gaza would be the most effective way to lay the groundwork for a peace plan.
Actually, I think it would have to be the other way around: we'd have to get all the Jews out of Israel (again, give them Florida). If the Palestinians were forced/convinced to leave, you still have Israel surrounded by antisemitic countries who want to destroy it. The Palestinians leaving in practicality would only exacerbate that.
But, as you say, this too is not a practical solution.
I disagree. The Egyptians, Jordanians, the Turks, Moroccans, and the Saudis have come to terms with or were on the verge of coming to terms with Israel as a state. The largest sticking point IMO is the 2 million people in an area two times the size of Washington, D.C. It would be the smallest population transfer that could lead to a doable solution in that region.
The Israelis are going to have a hard time accepting Hamas to the West, Hezbollah and Syria to the North, and Fatah to the east. They may be willing to trade settlements in the West Bank for territory in Gaza to eliminate a front in a potential future conflict.
All that is hypothetical though. I am admittedly terrible in my practice of Christianity but I do believe that none of this is getting truly sorted out by humans...I will leave it at that as to not turn this into a religious discussion.
They get Utah and Arizona. We already talked about this 🤣
fla is overpopulated thanks to covid and everyone moving there and the great ron desantis. but utah and arizona are too far away. we want these people to be close to their people in fla. so we give them alabama. it's ready and has plenty of space to build replica holy land features and all of that. with great concessions etc. we can even have fake buildings that explode. like they used to do at injun joe's river ride at six flags. so it'll be the relocation spot for the jews but we can also make it a theme park. You want to go to disney land or holy land gang. your call.
This is why there can’t be peace. This is no longer an Israel/Palestine issue. It’s civilized society/Barbarian issue. If the Palestinians disarm and accept Jews as neighbors, there will be peace. If Israel offers compromise there will never be peace. This is the lesson of Arafat. Time to accept that.
As long as Buc-ee’s stays, then I’m ok with it. Football games would be wild. Hillbillies and Jews standing side by side screaming roll tide!
