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Epistemic Sunk Cost Fallacy and Trump

iu_a_att

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Here is an interesting post by John Holbo at Crooked Timber that captures something I have been thinking about for quite awhile. The basic idea of the sunk cost fallacy is that if you invest in a project that turns out to be a loser many people will, nevertheless, throw good money after bad in an attempt to recover their losses. He suggests that an "epistemic" sunk cost phenomena is occurring now with Trump supporters.He illustrates with Trump's attack on Trudeau.
In the Trudeau case there are two options as to things you might believe.

1) Justin Trudeau is a weak, nefarious dairy extortionist.

2) 1 is just ****ing ridiculous.

If 2 is true, Trump voters ought to be ashamed of themselves. Anyone can make mistakes. But the President of the United States should not be ridiculous.

If you have to choose between being being ashamed of yourself or thinking Justin Trudeau is going to hell for dairy-related reasons, the latter option is far superior on grounds of psychic comfort. (Exception: you yourself are Justin Trudeau.)

But it adds up. I don’t just mean: you get wronger and wronger. It gets harder and harder to doubt the next ridiculous thing – since admitting Trump said or did one thing that was not just wrong but ridiculous would make it highly credible that he has done or said other ridiculous things. But that would raise the likelihood that you, a Trump supporter, have already believed or praised not just mistaken but flat-out ridiculous things, which would be an annoying thing to have to admit. So the comfortable option is to buy it all – the more so, the more ridiculous it threatens to be.
Holbo also observes the rapidity with which previous ideological commitments have been abandoned. Many people who identify as Republicans and Conservatives can see all this happening but everyone is largely powerless to stop it.

I have been inclined to think that the abandonment of principles is proof that such principles never held much sway. But that hypothesis implicitly assumes that people are rational. The sunk cost model, in contrast, ends up with people incurring large losses they later really regret. That model seems quite persuasive too...maybe a better model actually.
 
Here is an interesting post by John Holbo at Crooked Timber that captures something I have been thinking about for quite awhile. The basic idea of the sunk cost fallacy is that if you invest in a project that turns out to be a loser many people will, nevertheless, throw good money after bad in an attempt to recover their losses. He suggests that an "epistemic" sunk cost phenomena is occurring now with Trump supporters.He illustrates with Trump's attack on Trudeau.
In the Trudeau case there are two options as to things you might believe.

1) Justin Trudeau is a weak, nefarious dairy extortionist.

2) 1 is just ****ing ridiculous.

If 2 is true, Trump voters ought to be ashamed of themselves. Anyone can make mistakes. But the President of the United States should not be ridiculous.

If you have to choose between being being ashamed of yourself or thinking Justin Trudeau is going to hell for dairy-related reasons, the latter option is far superior on grounds of psychic comfort. (Exception: you yourself are Justin Trudeau.)

But it adds up. I don’t just mean: you get wronger and wronger. It gets harder and harder to doubt the next ridiculous thing – since admitting Trump said or did one thing that was not just wrong but ridiculous would make it highly credible that he has done or said other ridiculous things. But that would raise the likelihood that you, a Trump supporter, have already believed or praised not just mistaken but flat-out ridiculous things, which would be an annoying thing to have to admit. So the comfortable option is to buy it all – the more so, the more ridiculous it threatens to be.
Holbo also observes the rapidity with which previous ideological commitments have been abandoned. Many people who identify as Republicans and Conservatives can see all this happening but everyone is largely powerless to stop it.

I have been inclined to think that the abandonment of principles is proof that such principles never held much sway. But that hypothesis implicitly assumes that people are rational. The sunk cost model, in contrast, ends up with people incurring large losses they later really regret. That model seems quite persuasive too...maybe a better model actually.

This link and post is a pretty good example of the fallacy of affirming the consequent:

X voted for Trump.

Trump is an idiot.

Therefore X is an idiot.
Or as you seem to suggest:

X voted for Trump

Trump is more shameful today than he was yesterday

Therefore X should be more ashamed of himself today than he was yesterday.

 
This link and post is a pretty good example of the fallacy of affirming the consequent:

X voted for Trump.

Trump is an idiot.

Therefore X is an idiot.
Or as you seem to suggest:

X voted for Trump

Trump is more shameful today than he was yesterday

Therefore X should be more ashamed of himself today than he was yesterday.

That is not at all what either the link or the post says. Let's just stick with the sunk cost problem. At time 0 you have some information about whether an investment is a good one. Your information at that time makes you think the investment is good so you rationally invest. At time 1 you get a signal that the investment is not likely to be good. Your choice is to invest more or accept your loss. If you were rational you would accept your loss and not invest more. But many people are not rational, they are loss averse...so they invest more. At time 2 they get even more bad news and must decide whether to accept what is now an even larger loss or invest more...they invest more. This is what is known as the sunk cost fallacy.

The analog here is that, perhaps, your initial investment in Trump made sense. But now you get bad news. Do you cut your losses or double down. Holbo is suggesting that it is psychically easier to double down. The model seems compelling...we have current Republican senators like Bob Corker suggesting that the GOP has become a cult for Trump. Corker's understanding seems to track Holbo's.
 
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This link and post is a pretty good example of the fallacy of affirming the consequent:

X voted for Trump.

Trump is an idiot.

Therefore X is an idiot.
Or as you seem to suggest:

X voted for Trump

Trump is more shameful today than he was yesterday

Therefore X should be more ashamed of himself today than he was yesterday.

Neither of those are examples of affirming the consequent. This would be affirming the consequent:

If A voted for Trump, A is an idiot.
A is an idiot.
Therefore, A voted for Trump.
If you're going to accuse people of logical fallacies, you should really make an effort to understand them.
 
Here is an interesting post by John Holbo at Crooked Timber that captures something I have been thinking about for quite awhile. The basic idea of the sunk cost fallacy is that if you invest in a project that turns out to be a loser many people will, nevertheless, throw good money after bad in an attempt to recover their losses. He suggests that an "epistemic" sunk cost phenomena is occurring now with Trump supporters.He illustrates with Trump's attack on Trudeau.
In the Trudeau case there are two options as to things you might believe.

1) Justin Trudeau is a weak, nefarious dairy extortionist.

2) 1 is just ****ing ridiculous.

If 2 is true, Trump voters ought to be ashamed of themselves. Anyone can make mistakes. But the President of the United States should not be ridiculous.

If you have to choose between being being ashamed of yourself or thinking Justin Trudeau is going to hell for dairy-related reasons, the latter option is far superior on grounds of psychic comfort. (Exception: you yourself are Justin Trudeau.)

But it adds up. I don’t just mean: you get wronger and wronger. It gets harder and harder to doubt the next ridiculous thing – since admitting Trump said or did one thing that was not just wrong but ridiculous would make it highly credible that he has done or said other ridiculous things. But that would raise the likelihood that you, a Trump supporter, have already believed or praised not just mistaken but flat-out ridiculous things, which would be an annoying thing to have to admit. So the comfortable option is to buy it all – the more so, the more ridiculous it threatens to be.
Holbo also observes the rapidity with which previous ideological commitments have been abandoned. Many people who identify as Republicans and Conservatives can see all this happening but everyone is largely powerless to stop it.

I have been inclined to think that the abandonment of principles is proof that such principles never held much sway. But that hypothesis implicitly assumes that people are rational. The sunk cost model, in contrast, ends up with people incurring large losses they later really regret. That model seems quite persuasive too...maybe a better model actually.
I think that's a pretty solid take on the psychological unwillingness to admit one was duped. I find even more interesting the discussion near the end about how quickly and completely the GOP has given up on conservative ideology and embraced plain old Trumpism.
 
I think that's a pretty solid take on the psychological unwillingness to admit one was duped. I find even more interesting the discussion near the end about how quickly and completely the GOP has given up on conservative ideology and embraced plain old Trumpism.
Yes...the speed of the change is remarkable and frightening.
 
That is not at all what either the link or the post says. Let's just stick with the sunk cost problem. At time 0 you have some information about whether an investment is a good one. Your information at that time makes you think the investment is good so you rationally invest. At time 1 you get a signal that the investment is not likely to be good. Your choice is to invest more or accept your loss. If you were rational you would accept your loss and not invest more. But many people are not rational, they are loss averse...so they invest more. At time 2 they get even more bad news and must decide whether to accept what is now an even larger loss or invest more...they invest more. This is what is known as the sunk cost fallacy.

The analog here is that, perhaps, your initial investment in Trump made sense. But now you get bad news. Do you cut your losses or double down. Holbo is suggesting that it is psychically easier to double down. The model seems compelling...we have current Republican senators like Bob Corker suggesting that the GOP has become a cult for Trump. Corker's understanding seems to track Holbo's.

Non of this is relevant until I vote again with Trump on the ticket.
 
This link and post is a pretty good example of the fallacy of affirming the consequent:

X voted for Trump.

Trump is an idiot.

Therefore X is an idiot.
Or as you seem to suggest:

X voted for Trump

Trump is more shameful today than he was yesterday

Therefore X should be more ashamed of himself today than he was yesterday.

It's meta-dazzling that you respond to a post about a logical fallacy by misdescribing it as a different fallacy -- and in the process completely missing the point. (Or purposely changing the subject. I can never tell whether you're dense or dishonest.)

Here's how affirming the consequent would work in your setting:

If X voted for Trump, then X is an idiot.

X is an idiot.

Therefore, X voted for Trump.
This is a fallacy because not all idiots voted for Trump. Some didn't vote at all, while others might have voted for Jill Stein.

None of this, of course, has anything to do with iu@att's post. It's just you f#cking up other people's conversations by posting bullshit.
 
I've heard a good many Trump voters say their vote (investment) in a less than perfect Trump was still better than voting for Clinton. Also, to date, Trump has proven to be better than Obama in their way of thinking.
 
Non of this is relevant until I vote again with Trump on the ticket.
It is relevant to anyone who would like to understand our current politics. Are people, like Holbo argues, really sacrificing their core values to support Trump? Or have we really misunderstood their core values? If Holbo is correct Trump can pretty much do anything and his supporters will go along. if Holbo is not correct then there are some things that Trump cannot do without losing support. The thought experiment of what Trump cannot do without losing support is a good one. I don't think Trump can appoint liberal/democratic judges. I don't think he can support immigration. I don't think he can abandon Israel. I don't think he can endorse black lives matter. I don't think he could become a Democrat.

If I am right about what Trump can't do then I think that undermines Holbo's case that "epistemic sunk costs" are really what is going on.
 
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I think that's a pretty solid take on the psychological unwillingness to admit one was duped. I find even more interesting the discussion near the end about how quickly and completely the GOP has given up on conservative ideology and embraced plain old Trumpism.

I wasn’t duped. Trump is pretty much as I expected. I would also say his personal conduct is worse than I expected and his policy initiatives and accomplishments are better than I hoped.

I don’t know how Trumpism is a substitute for conservative ideology (assuming there really is conservative ideology). I don’t think Trump is driven by ideology much at all (I don’t think MAGA is an ideology) and that was apparent to me well before the election. I posted about that a few times.
 
I've heard a good many Trump voters say their vote (investment) in a less than perfect Trump was still better than voting for Clinton. Also, to date, Trump has proven to be better than Obama in their way of thinking.
Clinton wouldn't have called Trudeau a nefarious back-stabber and Kim a good guy who is more trustworthy than the U.S. media. No Republican before Trump would have done such a thing. Republican support for Putin has gone through the roof, that would not have happened without Trump. Trump is good on North Korea while Obama was a cheese-eating surrender monkey on NK. All this suggests that either they are forced to endorse Trump's NK despite their values to avoid embarrassment and shame OR they never had any values on NK previously and just claimed to be outraged as a political stratagem. Holbo says the former but I am more inclined to go with the latter.
 
It is relevant to anyone who would like to understand our current politics. Are people, like Holbo argues, really sacrificing their core values to support Trump? Or have we really misunderstood their core values? If Holbo is correct Trump can pretty much do anything and his supporters will go along. if Holbo is not correct then there are some things that Trump cannot do without losing support. The thought experiment of what Trump cannot do without losing support is a good one. I don't think Trump can appoint liberal/democratic judges. I don't think he can support immigration. I don't think he can abandon Israel. I don't think he can endorse black lives matter. I don't think he could become a Democrat.

If I am right about what Trump can't do then I think that undermines Holbo's case that "epistemic sunk costs" are really what is going on.

“Supporting” Trump says nothing. I admit to agreeing with many of his actions. You calling that “support” is an emotional editorial.
 
Clinton wouldn't have called Trudeau a nefarious back-stabber and Kim a good guy who is more trustworthy than the U.S. media. No Republican before Trump would have done such a thing. Republican support for Putin has gone through the roof, that would not have happened without Trump. Trump is good on North Korea while Obama was a cheese-eating surrender monkey on NK. All this suggests that either they are forced to endorse Trump's NK despite their values to avoid embarrassment and shame OR they never had any values on NK previously and just claimed to be outraged as a political stratagem. Holbo says the former but I am more inclined to go with the latter.

You have to remember that Trump went wheels up from the G-7 with no Trudeau comments. He returned fire when Trudeau spoke about Trump and their meeting knowing Trump was gone. That is no excuse for Trumps counter fire, but it does provide context.
 
“Supporting” Trump says nothing. I admit to agreeing with many of his actions. You calling that “support” is an emotional editorial.
Publicly agreeing with Trump's actions is literally what I would call support for Trump's actions.

Trump's actions on NK and actions on trade appear entirely orthogonal to what seemed previously to be strongly held ideological positions within the GOP. The question remaining is whether those GOPers supporting Trump's actions (A) are sacrificing real principles due to being caught in an epistemic sunk cost situation; or (B) never really had principles on NK or trade. Holbo says A and I am increasingly in favor of B.
 
It is relevant to anyone who would like to understand our current politics. Are people, like Holbo argues, really sacrificing their core values to support Trump? Or have we really misunderstood their core values? If Holbo is correct Trump can pretty much do anything and his supporters will go along. if Holbo is not correct then there are some things that Trump cannot do without losing support. The thought experiment of what Trump cannot do without losing support is a good one. I don't think Trump can appoint liberal/democratic judges. I don't think he can support immigration. I don't think he can abandon Israel. I don't think he can endorse black lives matter. I don't think he could become a Democrat.

If I am right about what Trump can't do then I think that undermines Holbo's case that "epistemic sunk costs" are really what is going on.
Holbo also gets to something about Trump's preposterous lies that I think is important: Trump's followers have to believe the crazy things he says, because otherwise they'd be forced to recognize that he's unfit and unhinged. For whatever reason they can't accept this realization, so they believe the crazy. Indeed, this is a central part of the submission Trump demands -- if you aren't willing to play the fool, then you aren't a loyal Trump supporter. And Republican primaries offer plenty of evidence that Republican voters won't tolerate anything but loyal Trump supporters.

The Republican hive mind supports Trump, so it believes Trump's lies.
 
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Here is an interesting post by John Holbo at Crooked Timber that captures something I have been thinking about for quite awhile. The basic idea of the sunk cost fallacy is that if you invest in a project that turns out to be a loser many people will, nevertheless, throw good money after bad in an attempt to recover their losses. He suggests that an "epistemic" sunk cost phenomena is occurring now with Trump supporters.He illustrates with Trump's attack on Trudeau.
In the Trudeau case there are two options as to things you might believe.

1) Justin Trudeau is a weak, nefarious dairy extortionist.

2) 1 is just ****ing ridiculous.

If 2 is true, Trump voters ought to be ashamed of themselves. Anyone can make mistakes. But the President of the United States should not be ridiculous.

If you have to choose between being being ashamed of yourself or thinking Justin Trudeau is going to hell for dairy-related reasons, the latter option is far superior on grounds of psychic comfort. (Exception: you yourself are Justin Trudeau.)

But it adds up. I don’t just mean: you get wronger and wronger. It gets harder and harder to doubt the next ridiculous thing – since admitting Trump said or did one thing that was not just wrong but ridiculous would make it highly credible that he has done or said other ridiculous things. But that would raise the likelihood that you, a Trump supporter, have already believed or praised not just mistaken but flat-out ridiculous things, which would be an annoying thing to have to admit. So the comfortable option is to buy it all – the more so, the more ridiculous it threatens to be.
Holbo also observes the rapidity with which previous ideological commitments have been abandoned. Many people who identify as Republicans and Conservatives can see all this happening but everyone is largely powerless to stop it.

I have been inclined to think that the abandonment of principles is proof that such principles never held much sway. But that hypothesis implicitly assumes that people are rational. The sunk cost model, in contrast, ends up with people incurring large losses they later really regret. That model seems quite persuasive too...maybe a better model actually.

Sounds like the Mike Davis syndrome I suffered from years ago...and the Tom Crean syndrome others suffered from more recently.
 
Holbo also gets to something about Trump's preposterous lies that I think is important: Trump's followers have to believe the crazy things he says, because otherwise they'd be forced to recognize that he's unfit and unhinged. For whatever reason they can't accept this realization, so they believe the crazy. Indeed, this is a central part of the submission Trump demands -- if you aren't willing to play the fool, then you aren't a loyal Trump supporter. And Republican primaries offer plenty of evidence that Republican voters won't tolerate anything but loyal Trump supporters.

The Republican hive mind supports Trump, so it believes trump's lies.
Jonathan Haidt identifies loyalty and respect for authority as core values of those who lean politically right. Liberals don't put much weight on either of those values.
 
Jonathan Haidt identifies loyalty and respect for authority as core values of those who lean politically right. Liberals don't put much weight on either of those values.

Loyalty and respect for authority sound like good values to me. They are both important for a functioning common culture.
 
Loyalty and respect for authority sound like good values to me. They are both important for a functioning common culture.
Is CO. Hoosier too dense to see iu@att's point, or is he just too dishonest to address iu@att's point in good faith? We'd need something like a Turing test to tell the difference.
 
Jonathan Haidt identifies loyalty and respect for authority as core values of those who lean politically right. Liberals don't put much weight on either of those values.
Liberals may not put as much weight on those values as conservatives and that difference is probably significant, but it has always existed. The problem today is that the hardcore 33% of trump supporters fall into the same group that would move to Guyana and drink the kool-aid.
 
Jonathan Haidt identifies loyalty and respect for authority as core values of those who lean politically right. Liberals don't put much weight on either of those values.
Although I find Haidt's theory interesting, I'm not entirely sure it's the underlying explanation for what's going on here. One thing Haidt points out is that we are all very good at providing post hoc rationalizations for what we believe. What makes us different, at least politically, is that those rationalizations are based in different combinations of moral values. Liberals tend to value fairness and care for others much more than conservatives do, but authority and loyalty much less.

But it certainly doesn't follow that valuing loyalty and authority is more likely to lead to the type of cognitive dissonance displayed by Trump supporters (not that you are claiming it is), and therefore, I don't necessarily think that's the cause in this particular case. Haidt's theory is useful for exploring morality, for understanding why we care about certain things more than others, but it's not an all-encompassing Grand Unified Theory of the human psyche. What we could be witnessing here is something much baser than moral foundations. It could simply be ego, a discomfort at the possibility of exposing oneself to be so unquestionably wrong, that one is simply incapable of seeing and recognizing obvious truths for what they are.
 
Publicly agreeing with Trump's actions is literally what I would call support for Trump's actions.

Trump's actions on NK and actions on trade appear entirely orthogonal to what seemed previously to be strongly held ideological positions within the GOP. The question remaining is whether those GOPers supporting Trump's actions (A) are sacrificing real principles due to being caught in an epistemic sunk cost situation; or (B) never really had principles on NK or trade. Holbo says A and I am increasingly in favor of B.

Now you are engaging in the fallacy of the false dilemma (all or nothing). I readily acknowledge Trump's NK approach is orthogonal, and I don't agree with his direction with tariffs. Maybe you can live your life with an all in our all out approach to every individual and every issue--but not me. Everything is much more nuanced than that. If you really see politics and Trump in such a binary state, nuance is not your strong point. I see no sacrifice of my basic principles because I agree with Trump on some stuff and disagree on other stuff.

When Holbo said something similar to you with his "two options" point; I did him a favor by saying he was affirming the consequence. I could have said he is being a dumbass. Of course there are more than two options.
 
Loyalty and respect for authority sound like good values to me. They are both important for a functioning common culture.
They are core values...which means they aren't subsidiary to some other values e.g., a functioning common culture.
The third and primary empirical point of Haidt's talk is about his own research on the five moral value systems that he argues underlie the liberal-conservative political dimension: 1) Care for Others/Do no harm; 2) Fairness/Justice/Equality; 3) In-Group Loyalty; 4) Respect for Authority; and 5) Purity.​
Haidt argues that political liberals care mostly only about 1 and 2 (with perhaps a dash of 5). Conservatives care about 3,4 as well. I would say that in-group loyalty is often particularly antagonistic to a functioning common culture.
 
Is CO. Hoosier too dense to see iu@att's point, or is he just too dishonest to address iu@att's point in good faith? We'd need something like a Turing test to tell the difference.

whuttabout CO. Hoosier? You make me the subject of dozens of threads, yet you claim I am the one who f#cks up converations. FWIW, I don't give a shit about why you post as you do, (and I don't post about that) but I will respond to what you say from time to time.
 
They are core values...which means they aren't subsidiary to some other values e.g., a functioning common culture.
The third and primary empirical point of Haidt's talk is about his own research on the five moral value systems that he argues underlie the liberal-conservative political dimension: 1) Care for Others/Do no harm; 2) Fairness/Justice/Equality; 3) In-Group Loyalty; 4) Respect for Authority; and 5) Purity.​
Haidt argues that political liberals care mostly only about 1 and 2 (with perhaps a dash of 5). Conservatives care about 3,4 as well. I would say that in-group loyalty is often particularly antagonistic to a functioning common culture.

There are many more than five moral value systems that underlie the liberal conservative "political dimension" (what ever that is supposed to mean). I see what you did with your last sentence. Cute way of saying conservatives are exclusionary bitter clingers and deplorables.
 
Now you are engaging in the fallacy of the false dilemma (all or nothing). I readily acknowledge Trump's NK approach is orthogonal, and I don't agree with his direction with tariffs. Maybe you can live your life with an all in our all out approach to every individual and every issue--but not me. Everything is much more nuanced than that. If you really see politics and Trump in such a binary state, nuance is not your strong point. I see no sacrifice of my basic principles because I agree with Trump on some stuff and disagree on other stuff.

When Holbo said something similar to you with his "two options" point; I did him a favor by saying he was affirming the consequence. I could have said he is being a dumbass. Of course there are more than two options.
Focus CoH. First, we are not talking about you personally. Second, following Holbo we are trying to explain support within the GOP for Trump's actions (like his attack on Trudeau along with threats of a trade war) that Holbo believes GOP politicians and voters would never have done themselves or countenanced if done by a Democrat. Holbo believes that the GOP does hold the values claimed (support for allies and free trade) but sacrifices those values to avoid saying Trump is wrong and preserve face. I say that the GOP never cared about allies or trade and only said they did as a political gambit.

Clearly there are more options. Some do renounce Trump on this point (while continuing to support him for other reasons). This, I gather is what you say that you do. But then you aren't part of the phenomena we are trying to explain. Some will claim that Trump's actions actually are pro free trade and pro allies. This is a trick often used by partisans that seems to me very much in the spirit of what Holbo is talking about.
 
whuttabout CO. Hoosier? You make me the subject of dozens of threads, yet you claim I am the one who f#cks up converations. FWIW, I don't give a shit about why you post as you do, (and I don't post about that) but I will respond to what you say from time to time.
You continuously make YOURSELF the subject of conversations by claiming your introspections are important for understanding mass political phenomena. You have done this several times in this thread. Neither Holbo nor I am accusing you personally of anything. Holbo is discussing some broad phenomena he sees taking place. I find his argument has some merit but find significant difference with him. You then claim you personally don't fit any of the categories. Whether you do or don't just isn't relevant.
 
There are many more than five moral value systems that underlie the liberal conservative "political dimension" (what ever that is supposed to mean). I see what you did with your last sentence. Cute way of saying conservatives are exclusionary bitter clingers and deplorables.
This is Haidt's framework, not mine. Conservatives generally like Haidt a great deal. The important point I take from Haidt is that there are systematic differences between liberals and conservatives in terms of something like ethical tastes. Where one can predict what a political liberal will feel is good by reference to either care/harm or fairness/equality Haidt tells us that other tastes will matter to conservatives.

Haidt uses the phrase in-group loyalty as one of those tastes that is characteristic of conservatives but not liberals.

As for in-group loyalty not necessarily helping in the creation of a well-functioning society, I think that point is obvious. As a matter of fact I think you believe that yourself whenever you decide to worry about identity politics. But more generally, there is no reason that ANY of Haidt's core ethical tastes should be expected to always produce a well-functioning common culture. That we have a well-functioning society is most likely due to our ability to put aside those ethical tastes in favor of doing those things that support a well-functioning society.
 
claiming your introspections are important for understanding mass political phenomena.

I post my opinion about posts and links. If you take my posts as important for understanding mass political phenomena that's on you. You are free to agree, disagree, discuss, or present a counter point as you wish. That's the purpose of a discussion forum. I just think it is interesting that a couple of posters usually find a way to post about me.
 
This is Haidt's framework, not mine. Conservatives generally like Haidt a great deal. The important point I take from Haidt is that there are systematic differences between liberals and conservatives in terms of something like ethical tastes. Where one can predict what a political liberal will feel is good by reference to either care/harm or fairness/equality Haidt tells us that other tastes will matter to conservatives.

Haidt uses the phrase in-group loyalty as one of those tastes that is characteristic of conservatives but not liberals.

As for in-group loyalty not necessarily helping in the creation of a well-functioning society, I think that point is obvious. As a matter of fact I think you believe that yourself whenever you decide to worry about identity politics. But more generally, there is no reason that ANY of Haidt's core ethical tastes should be expected to always produce a well-functioning common culture. That we have a well-functioning society is most likely due to our ability to put aside those ethical tastes in favor of doing those things that support a well-functioning society.

When you say "in group loyalty," what is the group?
 
Loyalty and respect for authority sound like good values to me. They are both important for a functioning common culture.

Sounds like an authoritarian government enforcing its dictated common culture by putting dissenters in a Gulag or just eliminating them. Loyalty and respect based upon fear.

In our system of governing the common culture is subject to both change and allowing dissent up to a point. The point being behavior which almost everyone finds unacceptable. The common culture thus varying in some instances from region to region, state to state, city to city, and block to block.
 
“Supporting” Trump says nothing. I admit to agreeing with many of his actions. You calling that “support” is an emotional editorial.

Its interesting how you rationalise your support for Trump.

You are highly selective in what you support and yet ignore others despite their contradictory positions. It's highly emotional, almost cult-like in your rationalisation -- and yet you accuse people of being emotional.

You are blinded by your loyalty ties to Trump. In all likelihood, you would never befriend a person like Trump in everyday life and yet you are constantly defending this man.
You may need a different mirror in the house ASAP.
 
Sounds like an authoritarian government enforcing its dictated common culture by putting dissenters in a Gulag or just eliminating them. Loyalty and respect based upon fear.

“Dictated common culture” is an interesting phrase. I’m thinking of Hobby Lobby and Cakeshop where SCOTUS turned back dictated common culture.
 
I post my opinion about posts and links. If you take my posts as important for understanding mass political phenomena that's on you. You are free to agree, disagree, discuss, or present a counter point as you wish. That's the purpose of a discussion forum. I just think it is interesting that a couple of posters usually find a way to post about me.
You have assiduously managed to miss my point. If we are trying to understand the price of rice in China the fact that you don't like rice and wouldn't want to live in China really is not relevant. Actually, even if you lived in China your personal preference in rice wouldn't matter either.
 
yet ignore others despite their contradictory positions.

I don't ignore them. I disagree with them. Funny how many freely use the word "ignore" interchangeably with "disagreement". They are different words with different meanings.

It's highly emotional, almost cult-like

Not sure what you are getting at here. You are free to claim I'm being emotional. All I know is what I agree with and what I don't and I express that.

yet you are constantly defending this man.

Now you are lying. Trump has said or tweeted many many things that I have never defended. I suspect you are applying some kind of "duty to rebuke" standard to me. If I don't rebuke Trump, then I must have defend him; right? That's BS.

Nuance is not your strong point.
 
I don't ignore them. I disagree with them. Funny how many freely use the word "ignore" interchangeably with "disagreement". They are different words with different meanings.



Not sure what you are getting at here. You are free to claim I'm being emotional. All I know is what I agree with and what I don't and I express that.



Now you are lying. Trump has said or tweeted many many things that I have never defended. I suspect you are applying some kind of "duty to rebuke" standard to me. If I don't rebuke Trump, then I must have defend him; right? That's BS.

Nuance is not your strong point.
I will give you this. Your understanding of the meaning of the word "nuance" is roughly on par with your understanding of the word "consequent."
 
I don't ignore them. I disagree with them. Funny how many freely use the word "ignore" interchangeably with "disagreement". They are different words with different meanings.



Not sure what you are getting at here. You are free to claim I'm being emotional. All I know is what I agree with and what I don't and I express that.



Now you are lying. Trump has said or tweeted many many things that I have never defended. I suspect you are applying some kind of "duty to rebuke" standard to me. If I don't rebuke Trump, then I must have defend him; right? That's BS.

Nuance is not your strong point.

;) Now I know you are just trolling or you are paid to say that at every opportunity? You ought to trademark it or someone else will.
You ought to use white text too for those who may not get your schtick.
 
Is CO. Hoosier too dense to see iu@att's point, or is he just too dishonest to address iu@att's point in good faith? We'd need something like a Turing test to tell the difference.

The amount of the lady doth protest too much in CoH's posting about President Trump is the tell.
 
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