Education

[Spartans9312]

The New York Times looked at different editions of the same public-school textbooks published in California and Texas.
From the NYT: "The books have the same publisher. They credit the same authors. But they are customized for students in different states, and their contents sometimes diverge in ways that reflect the nation's deepest partisan divides. Classroom materials are not only shaded by politics, but are also helping to shape a generation of future voters."

 

[jet812]

Truly a shame...

 

[Spartans9312]

Truly a shame...

The NYT joined the fray with its 1619 Project, which portrays the U.S. As irreparably stained by racism and slavery, and free-market economics as rooted in human bondage.
The project has been turned into classroom materials over the objections of historians who charge it with, according to the NYT, "a displacement of historical understanding by ideology".
According to Nikole Hannah-Jones, the reporter who led the project, "the 1619 Project is using history and reporting to make an argument. It never pretended to be a history."

 

[Spartans9312]

My kids go to public school and we will continue as normal and per school board decisions. I have been looking at what others around the country are thinking about doing and some of the examples make sense.
This whole pod thing seems interesting.
The lady that wrote Unschooled, which I consider a good read, said "these pandemic pods are the ultimate in parent-driven education innovation. Parents were forced into COVID homeschooling last spring. But now they are willingly taking the reins of their children's education."

 

[UncleMark]

The New York Times looked at different editions of the same public-school textbooks published in California and Texas.
From the NYT: "The books have the same publisher. They credit the same authors. But they are customized for students in different states, and their contents sometimes diverge in ways that reflect the nation's deepest partisan divides. Classroom materials are not only shaded by politics, but are also helping to shape a generation of future voters."

That's always been the case. It's one reason that history textbooks downplayed the impact of slavery on the runup to the Civil War. The textbook publishers had to tailor their offerings to large southern buyers, Texas in particular.

 

[Sope Creek]

My kids go to public school and we will continue as normal and per school board decisions. I have been looking at what others around the country are thinking about doing and some of the examples make sense.
This whole pod thing seems interesting.
The lady that wrote Unschooled, which I consider a good read, said "these pandemic pods are the ultimate in parent-driven education innovation. Parents were forced into COVID homeschooling last spring. But now they are willingly taking the reins of their children's education."

If you haven't read "Educated" by Tara Westover, I'd recommend it.

Human beings with experience of the world get an understanding of the world around them with that experience, but don't necessarily develop the language for expressing their experientoce of the world. It's in the development of language that we get to express those experiences of others, and find commonalities in those experiences. That's what we used to call "civilized".

Today we have far too much of an investment in having the world reflect me back at me, rather than finding the commonalities . . . .

 

[Cortez88]

My kids go to public school and we will continue as normal and per school board decisions. I have been looking at what others around the country are thinking about doing and some of the examples make sense.
This whole pod thing seems interesting.
The lady that wrote Unschooled, which I consider a good read, said "these pandemic pods are the ultimate in parent-driven education innovation. Parents were forced into COVID homeschooling last spring. But now they are willingly taking the reins of their children's education."

Isn’t this the argument against expertise? It seems like this degrades the expertise of educators by putting parents on an equal plane as to what their children should learn in school. That seems absurd to me. My opinion is informed by the absolutely stupid humans I have met who happen to be parents.

 

[outside shooter]

A few years back I experienced this firsthand when I was on a panel of scientists advising the public school district about the selection of science textbooks. It wasn't enough to pick the books that taught the subject well & accurately, we also had to focus on whether we would be getting the "national version" or the "Texas revision" of the national version by the same authors and publishers. The Texas revision was very popular in the south. It added a bunch of nonsense in many areas, such as downplaying evolution, failing to posit it as one of the central unifying concepts of all biology.

I wonder if those authors signed away their ability to control how their teachings were edited so severely. It really stunk.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

A few years back I experienced this firsthand when I was on a panel of scientists advising the public school district about the selection of science textbooks. It wasn't enough to pick the books that taught the subject well & accurately, we also had to focus on whether we would be getting the "national version" or the "Texas revision" of the national version by the same authors and publishers. The Texas revision was very popular in the south. It added a bunch of nonsense in many areas, such as downplaying evolution, failing to posit it as one of the central unifying concepts of all biology.

I wonder if those authors signed away their ability to control how their teachings were edited so severely. It really stunk.

From a Texas science book:

jk

 

[Marvin the Martian]

That's always been the case. It's one reason that history textbooks downplayed the impact of slavery on the runup to the Civil War. The textbook publishers had to tailor their offerings to large southern buyers, Texas in particular.

I found a PDF on the history of textbooks teaching the Civil War. In it is:

Slavery remained the central cause of the Civil War until 1954, when textbooks began to agree with Davis and Jefferson’s earlier claim that secession and war were caused
by states’ rights.
​

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAN6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw3xDG7mc-8nvDyIDr-G_5V-

I remember what I was taught back in the day, it was very pro-southern.

 

[Spartans9312]

Isn’t this the argument against expertise? It seems like this degrades the expertise of educators by putting parents on an equal plane as to what their children should learn in school. That seems absurd to me. My opinion is informed by the absolutely stupid humans I have met who happen to be parents.

A former Bronx public school teacher, Robert Pondiscio, says "everything in education causes inequity. It's like the old Joe Jackson song: Everything gives you cancer."
He's the author of How the Other Half Learns, a good read if you haven't done so.
He wants more equity between the halves.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

The NYT joined the fray with its 1619 Project, which portrays the U.S. As irreparably stained by racism and slavery, and free-market economics as rooted in human bondage.
The project has been turned into classroom materials over the objections of historians who charge it with, according to the NYT, "a displacement of historical understanding by ideology".
According to Nikole Hannah-Jones, the reporter who led the project, "the 1619 Project is using history and reporting to make an argument. It never pretended to be a history."

I have not read any of the 1619 project so I do not know what errors there are. But I have great faith in James McPerson as a historian and he has complaints.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I have not read any of the 1619 project so I do not know what errors there are. But I have great faith in James McPerson as a historian and he has complaints.

It will be interesting, and probably ultimately sad, to see how the project is received at scale. Most have never heard of it but even more will blindly fall into line at the risk of being hit with the racism! trump card if critical of it.

 

[UncleMark]

It will be interesting, and probably ultimately sad, to see how the project is received at scale. Most have never heard of it but even more will blindly fall into line at the risk of being hit with the racism! trump card if critical of it.

May I remind everyone about Common Core?

 

[Sope Creek]

I found a PDF on the history of textbooks teaching the Civil War. In it is:

Slavery remained the central cause of the Civil War until 1954, when textbooks began to agree with Davis and Jefferson’s earlier claim that secession and war were caused
by states’ rights.
​

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=gcjcwe&ved=2ahUKEwjItdqG0fLqAhVYHc0KHbd7DMs4ChAWMAN6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw3xDG7mc-8nvDyIDr-G_5V-

I remember what I was taught back in the day, it was very pro-southern.

Hmmm . . . do you mean that what you were taught was anti-federal government?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Hmmm . . . do you mean that what you were taught was anti-federal government?

More the lost cause myth. Southerners relied on bravery, the union on numbers.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

It will be interesting, and probably ultimately sad, to see how the project is received at scale. Most have never heard of it but even more will blindly fall into line at the risk of being hit with the racism! trump card if critical of it.

We need to do a better job at teaching slavery, and our treatment of indigenous populations.

I have not read the book below, but a friend was discussing it. Deep into the 20th century, county sheriffs would arrest Blacks on trumped up charges, a judge would sentence them to labor. The Black laborers would then be "sold" to mines, factories, farms to work. It was still slavery, just under a different name. Yet we don't seem,to talk about that in education, or elsewhere. NYT may be making a historical mistake, but it probably is not much worse then what we have taught.

Amazon product ASIN B003OSVHBQ

 

[outside shooter]

My wife's older Georgia relatives still refer to the Civil War, with a straight face and with all sincerity, as the "War of Northern Aggression" or (less preferred) the "War between the states"

 

[outside shooter]

Did anyone learn of the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921, aka the Black Wall Street Massacre, in any history class, whatsoever, growing up? I sure didn't.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Did anyone learn of the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921, aka the Black Wall Street Massacre, in any history class, whatsoever, growing up? I sure didn't.

Nope, not taught of it. Nor was I taught of the Red Summer of 1919 where multiple attacks on Blacks occurred nationwide. I heard of that at a WW1 seminar as one of the impacts of WW1, it appears Whites were afraid Blacks that had served would want to be treated as humans and the Red Summer was an attempt to make sure that did not happen. Somewhere between 100-250 Blacks died in just one small town in Arkansas.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Nope, not taught of it. Nor was I taught of the Red Summer of 1919 where multiple attacks on Blacks occurred nationwide. I heard of that at a WW1 seminar as one of the impacts of WW1, it appears Whites were afraid Blacks that had served would want to be treated as humans and the Red Summer was an attempt to make sure that did not happen. Somewhere between 100-250 Blacks died in just one small town in Arkansas.

I’m fairly certain that if you took a course on US history focusing on sociology that all of that would be covered. The curriculum only allows time for the largest of events and some stuff has to fall out.

Edit: I don’t disagree at all - perhaps we need to do a better job of informing the children about how awful our ancestors were it’s just what comes out of the curriculum then?

 

[hoosboot]

I’m fairly certain that if you took a course on US history focusing on sociology that all of that would be covered. The curriculum only allows time for the largest of events and some stuff has to fall out.

Edit: I don’t disagree at all - perhaps we need to do a better job of informing the children about how awful our ancestors were it’s just what comes out of the curriculum then?

That's an interesting idea. I certainly learned about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. I don't think that qualifies as "the largest of events." It requires some balance of thinking, an open dialogue, and an ability to look at history without an emotional attachment (which is harder than it might sound.) And it requires the ability to accept that people are inherently imperfect and that people who do great things are also able to do terrible things - that people we love dearly may also be (or have been) dearly flawed.

The problem is that, for some reason, we want statues in our history instead of people.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

That's an interesting idea. I certainly learned about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree. I don't think that qualifies as "the largest of events." It requires some balance of thinking, an open dialogue, and an ability to look at history without an emotional attachment (which is harder than it might sound.) And it requires the ability to accept that people are inherently imperfect and that people who do great things are also able to do terrible things - that people we love dearly may also be (or have been) dearly flawed.

The problem is that, for some reason, we want statues in our history instead of people.

You learned about the cherry tree in elementary school not in high school where complex ideas can be taught.

We need to teach the full picture of situations but we can’t because there isn’t time. When I learned of WW1 I only learned of Archduke Ferdinand, not the reasons why he was assassinated and the powder keg it lit. It makes us more simple and less critically thinking. And that’s all bad.

 

[hoosboot]

You learned about the cherry tree in elementary school not in high school where complex ideas can be taught.

We need to teach the full picture of situations but we can’t because there isn’t time. When I learned of WW1 I only learned of Archduke Ferdinand, not the reasons why he was assassinated and the powder keg it lit. It makes us more simple and less critically thinking. And that’s all bad.

I don't know, man. I think we can teach more complex ideas than that.

But, otherwise, I agree. We can't learn from history if we don't recognize that it's inherently complex. For some reason, we want it to be very simple and without any dimension.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't know, man. I think we can teach more complex ideas than that.

But, otherwise, I agree. We can't learn from history if we don't recognize that it's inherently complex. For some reason, we want it to be very simple and without any dimension.

Correct. And the criticism of the 1619 project is just that, that it’s an oversimplified rewrite. Will make for good discussion.

 

[hoosboot]

Correct. And the criticism of the 1619 project is just that, that it’s an oversimplified rewrite. Will make for good discussion.

I can buy that. Wrongs are often met with well-intended over-corrections. We'll keep working at it as a society and keep getting it more right. 1619 may be flawed (I haven't looked at it in any detail), but it also may be a necessary step for understanding the parameters of what is a half-measure and what is over-correction.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I can buy that. Wrongs are often met with well-intended over-corrections. We'll keep working at it as a society and keep getting it more right. 1619 may be flawed (I haven't looked at it in any detail), but it also may be a necessary step for understanding the parameters of what is a half-measure and what is over-correction.

Since we agree, let’s argue about something. Otherwise it’s boring.

 

[HillzHoozier]

 

[hoosboot]

Since we agree, let’s argue about something. Otherwise it’s boring.

Totally. Have you heard about the totally absurd freak out over "cancel culture"?
(I keed, I keed! )

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Totally. Have you heard about the totally absurd freak out over "cancel culture"?
(I keed, I keed! )

You son of a....

 

[mcmurtry66]

View embedded media

Might as well make the bar exam easier. You don’t even have to go to law school to be a lawyer in calif. So no law school and an easier bar. Kim kardashian will be handling murder cases in no time. Will make for a new reality show. And I thought advertising was the worst thing to happen to the profession.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Blah, blah, blah.

The American k-12 education system sucks. It sucks really bad. We are graduating many kids who can’t do math or read at a high school level. The incompetencies fall disproportionately on Blacks and Hispanics. It shouldn’t surprise anybody that people who can’t read or do math are going to be discriminated against when it comes to good jobs and making one’s way in this world. This is where income inequality begins.

Teaching about the Tulsa race riots, or the Ludlow Massacre, 1619 issues, or which FF’s owned slaves cannot change those kids who can’t read or do basic math. We cannot fix this with money, or more ECE. We need to fundamentally change education. The Democrats fight every GOP progressive idea to make changes.

If you want to know what systematic racism looks like, look at the educational achievement of Blacks and Hispanics.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Blah, blah, blah.

The American k-12 education system sucks. It sucks really bad. We are graduating many kids who can’t do math or read at a high school level. The incompetencies fall disproportionately on Blacks and Hispanics. It shouldn’t surprise anybody that people who can’t read or do math are going to be discriminated against when it comes to good jobs and making one’s way in this world. This is where income inequality begins.

Teaching about the Tulsa race riots, or the Ludlow Massacre, 1619 issues, or which FF’s owned slaves cannot change those kids who can’t read or do basic math. We cannot fix this with money, or more ECE. We need to fundamentally change education. The Democrats fight every GOP progressive idea to make changes.

If you want to know what systematic racism looks like, look at the educational achievement of Blacks and Hispanics.

So we can mark you down as opposing all teaching of history. Got it.

 

[UncleMark]

So we can mark you down as opposing all teaching of history. Got it.

Readin', 'Ritin', and 'Rithmetic. Maybe throw in some shop classes and home-ec. All the rest is bullshit.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

So we can mark you down as opposing all teaching of history. Got it.

Bullshit marv. You’ve squandered the last measure of my respect.

 

[UncleMark]

Bullshit marv. You’ve squandered the last measure of my respect.

He won't miss it. He's got plenty.

 

[Morrison]

He won't miss it. He's got plenty.

For some reason, I read every CO.H post in Bill Barr’s voice. Seriously.

 

[hoot1]

For some reason, I read every CO.H post in Bill Barr’s voice. Seriously.

Funny you mention this about CoH, he was highly critical of Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder, but has been silent about Barr.

 

[Morrison]

Funny you mention this about CoH, he was highly critical of Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder, but has been silent about Barr.

In my view, there’s only one reason intelligent men like Barr and COH twist themselves into pretzels defending a doofus like Trump. They never thought in their wildest dream we’d ever be this close to an autocratic white nationalist leading the country and taking us down that road.

They admire that Trump has no inhibitions and challenges what is necessary to bring this about. Perhaps they think he can be controlled, or his successor. It doesn’t matter, so long as he has an “R” next to his name. They don’t push back on Trump cozying up to Putin because they actually agree with it. They admire what Putin has going on in his white nationalist autocracy. Weak little men that find democracy scary.

Actually a nuanced argument could be made for a strongman autocratic leader for this country. But FFS, wait until you have a Reagan, Eisenhower, Rubio, or someone similar. Again, they’re closer than ever imagined, so they’re riding with the unfit imbecile.

 

[hoot1]

Blah, blah, blah.

The American k-12 education system sucks. It sucks really bad. We are graduating many kids who can’t do math or read at a high school level. The incompetencies fall disproportionately on Blacks and Hispanics. It shouldn’t surprise anybody that people who can’t read or do math are going to be discriminated against when it comes to good jobs and making one’s way in this world. This is where income inequality begins.

Teaching about the Tulsa race riots, or the Ludlow Massacre, 1619 issues, or which FF’s owned slaves cannot change those kids who can’t read or do basic math. We cannot fix this with money, or more ECE. We need to fundamentally change education. The Democrats fight every GOP progressive idea to make changes.

If you want to know what systematic racism looks like, look at the educational achievement of Blacks and Hispanics.

CoH, interesting link you provided.

Just like the link, I am a big fan of NAEP.

Also found that Blacks and Hispanics did well in what the link referred to as "opportunity based education" . So what some refer to as cultural and/or genetic deficiencies can be overcome.