Disgust just keeps rising

[Rusty G]

I don't understand why the majority of the folks on this board are not more disgusted with politics (note a few exceptions such as Aloha's post on why he could never vote for Trump). We have now devolved to the point where it looks like we might have a choice between a racist, sexist, blowhard who appears to believe that politics simply means lie your ass off and say whatever the folks listening want to hear while inflaming emotions and an aging, imperialistic, borderline (up for debate) criminal who appears to believe that politics simply means say whatever polls indicate will carve out your path to victory while behaving consistently over the years like laws and rules apply to everybody but her. And if anybody ends up responding to this post, I'll predict now that the majority of the responses focus on how the [candidate from the other side] is way worse than the characterization above.

Months ago the prevailing "wisdom" was that Trump was a sideshow. Now he is on the verge of winning the primary. We have presidential debates where penis size is discussed, political rallies where violence is encouraged by the candidate, positions vis-a-vis war that are illegal, etc., etc. And of course the "logical" response is the other side apparently orchestrating protests and celebrating when a political rally is cancelled. So violence begets violence, both sides become more entrenched, and free speech gets trampled. Even on this board I read posts suggesting that there is not nor should not be a right to protest. And we fight each other over "whose fault it is" -- blaming the other side of course.

The idea of fact-free, hate-filled rallies based upon emotional manipulation and leading to escalating levels of confrontation and violence actually worries me. Just like months ago when we thought Trump would go away once the adults woke up, I believe we are heading down a path that will lead to an election characterized by increasingly virulent feeding frenzies. We are about to nominate the two most polarizing (sorry Ted, but you polarize based upon positions, whereas Trump does based upon emotions) candidates into an environment that has had years of hate build up. The core supporters of each side appear to be in two distinctly different racial groups.

I have always wondered how ordinary, normal Germans got swept up by Naziism, and kind of ended up believing it was through a combination of emotional manipulation and not paying attention to the cliff that the bus was heading towards. I am not trying to say with this comparison that Trump is Hitler (nor Hillary). I do find myself wondering, however, if we are living through a period of change that is more significant than any of us think it is right now. Much of the greatness of this great experiment has been the orderly and peaceful changeover of power, that is largely democratically determined. Sure we have rallies, and we have protests, and we have odd moments of stupidity and violence, but at the end we are Americans and we work to respect each other and have some degree of pride that while we might not get our way, we change our leadership and move on.

I truly wonder if we haven't done / aren't doing something to ourselves that historians will look back on and study to try to figure out where the train went off the tracks. Hopefully I am just a bit paranoid. But when I "pay attention" to what is happening, either in large context (Chicago, Florida, e-mail, etc.) or small context -- the content and emotion on this board, it feels like reasonable people are being swept up. In fact, "reasonableness" seems to be disappearing entirely. That is what I find most disgusting.

 

[Hank Reardon]

Maybe societies need a little upheaval and reboot now and again. Is the divisiveness today really that much worse than 1968?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't understand why the majority of the folks on this board are not more disgusted with politics (note a few exceptions such as Aloha's post on why he could never vote for Trump). We have now devolved to the point where it looks like we might have a choice between a racist, sexist, blowhard who appears to believe that politics simply means lie your ass off and say whatever the folks listening want to hear while inflaming emotions and an aging, imperialistic, borderline (up for debate) criminal who appears to believe that politics simply means say whatever polls indicate will carve out your path to victory while behaving consistently over the years like laws and rules apply to everybody but her. And if anybody ends up responding to this post, I'll predict now that the majority of the responses focus on how the [candidate from the other side] is way worse than the characterization above.

Months ago the prevailing "wisdom" was that Trump was a sideshow. Now he is on the verge of winning the primary. We have presidential debates where penis size is discussed, political rallies where violence is encouraged by the candidate, positions vis-a-vis war that are illegal, etc., etc. And of course the "logical" response is the other side apparently orchestrating protests and celebrating when a political rally is cancelled. So violence begets violence, both sides become more entrenched, and free speech gets trampled. Even on this board I read posts suggesting that there is not nor should not be a right to protest. And we fight each other over "whose fault it is" -- blaming the other side of course.

The idea of fact-free, hate-filled rallies based upon emotional manipulation and leading to escalating levels of confrontation and violence actually worries me. Just like months ago when we thought Trump would go away once the adults woke up, I believe we are heading down a path that will lead to an election characterized by increasingly virulent feeding frenzies. We are about to nominate the two most polarizing (sorry Ted, but you polarize based upon positions, whereas Trump does based upon emotions) candidates into an environment that has had years of hate build up. The core supporters of each side appear to be in two distinctly different racial groups.

I have always wondered how ordinary, normal Germans got swept up by Naziism, and kind of ended up believing it was through a combination of emotional manipulation and not paying attention to the cliff that the bus was heading towards. I am not trying to say with this comparison that Trump is Hitler (nor Hillary). I do find myself wondering, however, if we are living through a period of change that is more significant than any of us think it is right now. Much of the greatness of this great experiment has been the orderly and peaceful changeover of power, that is largely democratically determined. Sure we have rallies, and we have protests, and we have odd moments of stupidity and violence, but at the end we are Americans and we work to respect each other and have some degree of pride that while we might not get our way, we change our leadership and move on.

I truly wonder if we haven't done / aren't doing something to ourselves that historians will look back on and study to try to figure out where the train went off the tracks. Hopefully I am just a bit paranoid. But when I "pay attention" to what is happening, either in large context (Chicago, Florida, e-mail, etc.) or small context -- the content and emotion on this board, it feels like reasonable people are being swept up. In fact, "reasonableness" seems to be disappearing entirely. That is what I find most disgusting.

I think that your post is very insightful and reflective.

I personally believe that we have nobody to blame but ourselves. We, as a society, have allowed ourselves to believe every meme we read on Facebook and every ridiculous chain email that we get from family and friends. The masses no longer exhibit healthy skepticism and no longer bother to critically think.

It doesn't matter if you're educated or uneducated, rich or poor, on the average we are no longer interested in facts and the truth. Case and point, according to Gallup, 42% of Americans think that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago. When politicians have to cater to these kind of people, we get a race like we have now.

We are, on the average, afraid of the future and how our nation is evolving. Our uneducated older white males are actually lowering their life expectancies and feel left behind. We imagine existential threats where there are none, because we read Facebook. We can't have a reasonable debate on gun control, because that requires critical thinking and we're not capable of that.

Until we as an American society can start to use our brains to dissect issues and come together to try to solve them, we're going to continue down this spiral of ignorance...and we'll get the candidates we deserve.



Gallup link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...evolution-but-42-percent-of-americans-do-not/

 

[mjvcaj]

I don't understand why the majority of the folks on this board are not more disgusted with politics

It's quite clear people are. Nobody really likes any of the candidates. That demonstrates disgust. That doesn't mean people know what to do about it, which is the heart of the problem. People feel helpless with this shitty two party system full of losers pretending to care.

 

[iuwclurker1]

I don't understand why the majority of the folks on this board are not more disgusted with politics (note a few exceptions such as Aloha's post on why he could never vote for Trump). We have now devolved to the point where it looks like we might have a choice between a racist, sexist, blowhard who appears to believe that politics simply means lie your ass off and say whatever the folks listening want to hear while inflaming emotions and an aging, imperialistic, borderline (up for debate) criminal who appears to believe that politics simply means say whatever polls indicate will carve out your path to victory while behaving consistently over the years like laws and rules apply to everybody but her. And if anybody ends up responding to this post, I'll predict now that the majority of the responses focus on how the [candidate from the other side] is way worse than the characterization above.

Months ago the prevailing "wisdom" was that Trump was a sideshow. Now he is on the verge of winning the primary. We have presidential debates where penis size is discussed, political rallies where violence is encouraged by the candidate, positions vis-a-vis war that are illegal, etc., etc. And of course the "logical" response is the other side apparently orchestrating protests and celebrating when a political rally is cancelled. So violence begets violence, both sides become more entrenched, and free speech gets trampled. Even on this board I read posts suggesting that there is not nor should not be a right to protest. And we fight each other over "whose fault it is" -- blaming the other side of course.

The idea of fact-free, hate-filled rallies based upon emotional manipulation and leading to escalating levels of confrontation and violence actually worries me. Just like months ago when we thought Trump would go away once the adults woke up, I believe we are heading down a path that will lead to an election characterized by increasingly virulent feeding frenzies. We are about to nominate the two most polarizing (sorry Ted, but you polarize based upon positions, whereas Trump does based upon emotions) candidates into an environment that has had years of hate build up. The core supporters of each side appear to be in two distinctly different racial groups.

I have always wondered how ordinary, normal Germans got swept up by Naziism, and kind of ended up believing it was through a combination of emotional manipulation and not paying attention to the cliff that the bus was heading towards. I am not trying to say with this comparison that Trump is Hitler (nor Hillary). I do find myself wondering, however, if we are living through a period of change that is more significant than any of us think it is right now. Much of the greatness of this great experiment has been the orderly and peaceful changeover of power, that is largely democratically determined. Sure we have rallies, and we have protests, and we have odd moments of stupidity and violence, but at the end we are Americans and we work to respect each other and have some degree of pride that while we might not get our way, we change our leadership and move on.

I truly wonder if we haven't done / aren't doing something to ourselves that historians will look back on and study to try to figure out where the train went off the tracks. Hopefully I am just a bit paranoid. But when I "pay attention" to what is happening, either in large context (Chicago, Florida, e-mail, etc.) or small context -- the content and emotion on this board, it feels like reasonable people are being swept up. In fact, "reasonableness" seems to be disappearing entirely. That is what I find most disgusting.

Nowadays people talk about anger as if it's a rational/correct/normal response to whatever they're angry with. Anger is never rational/correct/normal. It's destructive. The more anger there is in society, the worse the outlook and outcomes. For starters, we should stop glorifying anger. There's no guarantee the American Experiment will survive.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I personally believe that we have nobody to blame but ourselves. We, as a society, have allowed ourselves to believe every meme we read on Facebook and every ridiculous chain email that we get from family and friends. The masses no longer exhibit healthy skepticism and no longer bother to critically think.

I agree with you

I'd add to your list political messages. We have come to believe that government can and should solve every problem. It can't. It shouldn't. Politicians have learned very well to exploit this idea to acquire power.

Yesterday I heard an Obama interview where he was asked about these political and social divisions. In the course of his answer he remarked "I am the only national politician elected by all the people". That is not the way the founding fathers designed the selection of POTUS. Those who agree with this comment, or agree this is how POTUS should be selected are also part of the problem. Millions of Trump supporters believe he can change evertthing that is wrong. Millions of Hillary supporters believe the same. They can't. No POTUS can. POTUS needs to mostly moderate the policy discussion, not mostly lead it.

So long as we continue along this misguided path of selecting a POTUS, we will have the kind of discord and turmoil we now have. It will get worse. The founding fathers were visionaries and saw this coming.

 

[Rockfish1]

By most objective measures, things are going relatively well in this country, but for Trump supporters it's going to hell. Some have legitimate grievances, like those in the working class who've been getting the shaft for decades. But whether there's a legitimate grievance or not, a significant segment of white America has slipped a cog. Driven by fear, insecurity, and resentment, these Real Americans want to take Their country back from the undeserving Others. It's ugly, and whatever you say about Hillary Clinton, there isn't anything comparable to it happening on the other side of the aisle.

Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality. Our biggest international problem is global warming. Only Democrats will do anything about these problems. Republicans, who mostly deny that these actually are problems, promise to enact policies that would make these problems much worse. In this context, I have no difficulty deciding how I'll eventually vote, despite my personal distaste for Hillary.

 

[hoot1]

By most objective measures, things are going relatively well in this country, but for Trump supporters it's going to hell. Some have legitimate grievances, like those in the working class who've been getting the shaft for decades. But whether there's a legitimate grievance or not, a significant segment of white America has slipped a cog. Driven by fear, insecurity, and resentment, these Real Americans want to take Their country back from the undeserving Others. It's ugly, and whatever you say about Hillary Clinton, there isn't anything comparable to it happening on the other side of the aisle.

Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality. Our biggest international problem is global warming. Only Democrats will do anything about these problems. Republicans, who mostly deny that these actually are problems, promise to enact policies that would make these problems much worse. In this context, I have no difficulty deciding how I'll eventually vote, despite my personal distaste for Hillary.

Rock, your comment... "Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality" ...made me think of a piece I read not too long ago entitled Economy Is Rigged for the Wealthiest.

The essay in part states the following,

Professor C. J. Polychroniou calls the current system “Predatory Capitalism.” We have passed the era of industrial capitalism and have entered finance capitalism based on expansion of the neoliberal economic model globally. This is fundamental to understand because it is this model that is driving all of our crises.

Neoliberal economics is not related to liberalism in ideological terms, but liberalism in terms of a freeing of the market from any regulation and a freeing up of our resources to be used by private corporations for profit. In this model, government actively serves the financial elite, as Polychroniou describes: “Policies that increase the upward flows of income and the availability of public property for private exploitation rest at the core of the global neoliberal project, where predatory capitalism reigns supreme. So does privatizing profits and socializing losses.”

It is predatory capitalism that drives the race to the bottom in worker rights and wages and that drives the dismantling of our public institutions and privatization of education, transportation, health care, the postal service, prisons and more. Predatory capitalism sells our resources to the highest bidder without regard for destruction of the planet, displacement of families or poisoning of communities.





​

 

[iuwclurker1]

These two statements appear to be contradictory:

By most objective measures, things are going relatively well in this country

Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality.

Bernie says we need a revolution. That seems rather extreme if things are going relatively well. Is he wrong?

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

These two statements appear to be contradictory:

Bernie says we need a revolution. That seems rather extreme if things are going relatively well. Is he wrong?

It depends on the scale of revolution doesn't it? If something revolutionary was done to curb income inequality, then I think he's right. Maybe the difference between Bernie supporters and Trump supporters is that Bernie's supporters know that he's talking about a metaphoric revolution whereas Trump supporters would be (and probably are) stockpiling arms and ammo.

 

[Rockfish1]

These two statements appear to be contradictory:

Bernie says we need a revolution. That seems rather extreme if things are going relatively well. Is he wrong?

I said that by most objective measures things are going relatively well. But this doesn't mean that everything is fine. In fact, we've been engaged in the upward distribution of income and wealth since about 1980. That's a real problem, but I don't agree with Bernie that we need a revolution to fix it. In any event, we aren't going to get a revolution, so we should do the best we can.

I agree with Max Weber that "Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards." This requires both passion and perspective. It requires a willingness to accept the best we can get, even as we strive for better. It requires that we be grownups.

 

[Rockfish1]

Maybe the difference between Bernie supporters and Trump supporters is that Bernie's supporters know that he's talking about a metaphoric revolution whereas Trump supporters would be (and probably are) stockpiling arms and ammo.

Yep.

 

[iuwclurker1]

It depends on the scale of revolution doesn't it? If something revolutionary was done to curb income inequality, then I think he's right. Maybe the difference between Bernie supporters and Trump supporters is that Bernie's supporters know that he's talking about a metaphoric revolution whereas Trump supporters would be (and probably are) stockpiling arms and ammo.

I don't think anyone with a brain thinks Bernie is talking about overthrowing the government. Not sure what you mean by metaphorical, but clearly Bernie is talking about radical rather than incremental. Not only is that a foolhardy, but also a clueless approach, that is, Bernie has no clue whether his ideas would work, so why risk them. It's not like the US is in a horrible situation and needs drastic action to survive. Bernie makes it sound like it is. Classic fearmongering.

 

[Rockfish1]

Rock, your comment... "Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality" ...made me think of a piece I read not too long ago entitled Economy Is Rigged for the Wealthiest.

The essay in part states the following,

Professor C. J. Polychroniou calls the current system “Predatory Capitalism.” We have passed the era of industrial capitalism and have entered finance capitalism based on expansion of the neoliberal economic model globally. This is fundamental to understand because it is this model that is driving all of our crises.

Neoliberal economics is not related to liberalism in ideological terms, but liberalism in terms of a freeing of the market from any regulation and a freeing up of our resources to be used by private corporations for profit. In this model, government actively serves the financial elite, as Polychroniou describes: “Policies that increase the upward flows of income and the availability of public property for private exploitation rest at the core of the global neoliberal project, where predatory capitalism reigns supreme. So does privatizing profits and socializing losses.”

It is predatory capitalism that drives the race to the bottom in worker rights and wages and that drives the dismantling of our public institutions and privatization of education, transportation, health care, the postal service, prisons and more. Predatory capitalism sells our resources to the highest bidder without regard for destruction of the planet, displacement of families or poisoning of communities.





​

If nothing else, that piece illustrates a distinction that too many obscure: What's good for capitalism is often bad for individual capitalists. But it's the capitalists who have the money to influence policy. It's important to understand that they're special pleaders, not defenders of the system that animates free market economists. Because in a real free market, wealthy rent-seeking capitalists wouldn't exist.

 

[VanPastorMan]

By most objective measures, things are going relatively well in this country, but for Trump supporters it's going to hell. Some have legitimate grievances, like those in the working class who've been getting the shaft for decades. But whether there's a legitimate grievance or not, a significant segment of white America has slipped a cog. Driven by fear, insecurity, and resentment, these Real Americans want to take Their country back from the undeserving Others. It's ugly, and whatever you say about Hillary Clinton, there isn't anything comparable to it happening on the other side of the aisle.

Our biggest domestic problem is the rigged system that's driving historic levels of income inequality. Our biggest international problem is global warming. Only Democrats will do anything about these problems. Republicans, who mostly deny that these actually are problems, promise to enact policies that would make these problems much worse. In this context, I have no difficulty deciding how I'll eventually vote, despite my personal distaste for Hillary.

Rock, you act like President Obama hasn't been President for these last two terms. Why is it that income inequality has widened under him? It's his policies. The economy is not creating jobs like it should which means more people on the government dole. Unemployment payments have become the new welfare. Food stamps are way up. This is because of Obama. He has been president and has enacted real policies that have real world consequences. What we need is less government,smaller government. We need a government that lives within it's means and does not over tax it's populace. We do not need more Obama, so in my view this means Clinton and Sanders are out.

 

[Rockfish1]

Rock, you act like President Obama hasn't been President for these last two terms. Why is it that income inequality has widened under him? It's his policies.

Prove it.

Unemployment payments have become the new welfare. Food stamps are way up. This is because of Obama.

Prove it.

Put up or shut up.

 

[VanPastorMan]

Prove it.

Prove it.

Put up or shut up.

Rock, let's stop the payments and then see how the country goes. If the government suddenly stopped paying people who have been unemployed for years you would see a lot of turmoil. Right now people are not rioting because they are eating,have shelter, and a little pocket money. When it ends you will see a clamor like we have never seen. And the thing is when you don't have a job you just don't feel good about your situation. I've been there before.

 

[Rockfish1]

Rock, let's stop the payments and then see how the country goes. If the government suddenly stopped paying people who have been unemployed for years you would see a lot of turmoil. Right now people are not rioting because they are eating,have shelter, and a little pocket money. When it ends you will see a clamor like we have never seen. And the thing is when you don't have a job you just don't feel good about your situation. I've been there before.

So you've got nothing. That's what I thought.

 

[Lucy01]

So you've got nothing? That's what I thought.

You know what I like about people like you? You have all the education in the world and don't understand how to make it pay off for you, Mark Cuban understood John Schnatter understood or you are lazy and don't want the responsibility.

 

[Rockfish1]

You know what I like about people like you? You have all the education in the world and don't understand how to make it pay off for you, Mark Cuban understood John Schnatter understood or you are lazy and don't want the responsibility.

So you've still got nothing? That's what I thought.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

You know what I like about people like you? You have all the education in the world and don't understand how to make it pay off for you, Mark Cuban understood John Schnatter understood or you are lazy and don't want the responsibility.

What are you talking about?

 

[Lucy01]

What are you talking about?[/QUOTE It's pretty self-explanatory

 

[i'vegotwinners]

I don't understand why the majority of the folks on this board are not more disgusted with politics (note a few exceptions such as Aloha's post on why he could never vote for Trump). We have now devolved to the point where it looks like we might have a choice between a racist, sexist, blowhard who appears to believe that politics simply means lie your ass off and say whatever the folks listening want to hear while inflaming emotions and an aging, imperialistic, borderline (up for debate) criminal who appears to believe that politics simply means say whatever polls indicate will carve out your path to victory while behaving consistently over the years like laws and rules apply to everybody but her. And if anybody ends up responding to this post, I'll predict now that the majority of the responses focus on how the [candidate from the other side] is way worse than the characterization above.

Months ago the prevailing "wisdom" was that Trump was a sideshow. Now he is on the verge of winning the primary. We have presidential debates where penis size is discussed, political rallies where violence is encouraged by the candidate, positions vis-a-vis war that are illegal, etc., etc. And of course the "logical" response is the other side apparently orchestrating protests and celebrating when a political rally is cancelled. So violence begets violence, both sides become more entrenched, and free speech gets trampled. Even on this board I read posts suggesting that there is not nor should not be a right to protest. And we fight each other over "whose fault it is" -- blaming the other side of course.

The idea of fact-free, hate-filled rallies based upon emotional manipulation and leading to escalating levels of confrontation and violence actually worries me. Just like months ago when we thought Trump would go away once the adults woke up, I believe we are heading down a path that will lead to an election characterized by increasingly virulent feeding frenzies. We are about to nominate the two most polarizing (sorry Ted, but you polarize based upon positions, whereas Trump does based upon emotions) candidates into an environment that has had years of hate build up. The core supporters of each side appear to be in two distinctly different racial groups.

I have always wondered how ordinary, normal Germans got swept up by Naziism, and kind of ended up believing it was through a combination of emotional manipulation and not paying attention to the cliff that the bus was heading towards. I am not trying to say with this comparison that Trump is Hitler (nor Hillary). I do find myself wondering, however, if we are living through a period of change that is more significant than any of us think it is right now. Much of the greatness of this great experiment has been the orderly and peaceful changeover of power, that is largely democratically determined. Sure we have rallies, and we have protests, and we have odd moments of stupidity and violence, but at the end we are Americans and we work to respect each other and have some degree of pride that while we might not get our way, we change our leadership and move on.

I truly wonder if we haven't done / aren't doing something to ourselves that historians will look back on and study to try to figure out where the train went off the tracks. Hopefully I am just a bit paranoid. But when I "pay attention" to what is happening, either in large context (Chicago, Florida, e-mail, etc.) or small context -- the content and emotion on this board, it feels like reasonable people are being swept up. In fact, "reasonableness" seems to be disappearing entirely. That is what I find most disgusting.

let's see, you're disgusted because you don't like the personalities of the candidates running, but you aren't disgusted that the moneyed interests that have no allegiance to any country but only their own ownership, have been picking most of our candidates for us, and have taken over our govt on all but some social issues.

let's elect individuals who aren't just proxies of big money, (i guess that leaves Bernie or Trump), and hold our noses if we don't like their personalities.

 

[meridian]

Maybe societies need a little upheaval and reboot now and again. Is the divisiveness today really that much worse than 1968?

The big difference between 1068 and today is that there was a big war going on in Southeast Asia, and we were not winning either.