Charges filed against Flynn
- Thread starter twenty02
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The best reason to believe Trump was not involved. I do not think he is clever enough today to come up with some grand scheme. And if you were working for him and came up with some illegal scheme, would you honestly trust him not to Tweet it out? Unless there is some smoking gun on a cover up with Comey (a bribe or threat), I just don't see Trump and Russia leading to Trump.
Trump White House caught off guard by Flynn plea
The former national security adviser appeared in federal court to admit to a single charge of lying to FBI investigators just as the White House was focused on the passage of its landmark tax bill.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/01/trump-white-house-michael-flynn-response-274518
I don't know -- but nothing here points to evidence showing a fixing of the election. This happened afterwards, right?
Is there any evidence showing the Trump campaign colluded with Russia before the election such that they'd meddle with the election so as to receive favors afterwards?
Par for course. Just waiting for Hillary's involvement to be mentioned next.
Sadly Trump's base will still buy it.
I don't know. I'm waiting on some kind of evidence not born of personal animus or liberal pipedream. The more nothingburgers y'all try and pass off as meat and potatoes, the more inclined I am to discount the whole thing. Lots of people believed Trump was a joke and couldn't win, including myself. Nobody HATED him until he won the nomination, and until something solid surfaces, y'all look like a bunch of crybabies who didn't get their way.
As embarrassing as you think Trump is, and at times he genuinely is, The TrumpHate mob is not far behind. How much money did this fake news take out of our economy today? Today's news is based on wishes and dreams and anonymous leaks by sources who 'speculate' and once again, we discover at the end of the day the news is half true and there is nothing new to see. Does that never get old to you?
I know what you mean Hillzz -- this maybe will be really unpopular here, but honestly, I don't see what this nothingburger is all about. Its hard for me to see any Trump ties to Russia--I mean, except for
1. the Flynn thing
2. and the Manafort thing
3. and the Tillerson thing
4. and the Sessions thing
5. and the Kushner thing
6. and the Wray thing
7. and the Morgan, Lewis, & Bockius "Russian Law Firm of the Year" thing
8. and the Carter Page thing
9. and the Roger Stone thing
10. and the 198 Million voter records thing
11. and the Felix Sater thing
12. and the Boris Ephsteyn thing
13. and the Rosneft thing
14. and the Gazprom thing
15. and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing
16. and the Azerbajain thing
17. and the "I love Putin" thing
18. and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing
19. and the Lavrov thing
20. and the Sergey Kislyak thing
21. and the Oval Office thing
22. and the Gingrich/Kislyak phone calls thing
23. and the Russian Business Interests thing
24. and the Emoluments Clause thing
25. and the Alex Schnaider thing
26. and the hack of the DNC thing
27. and the Guccifer 2.0 thing
28. and the Mike Pence "I don't know anything" thing
29. and the Russians mysteriously dying thing and Trump's public request to Russia to hack Hillary's email thing
30. and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing
31. and the Russian fertilizer king's plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump rally campaign thing
32. and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing
33. and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing
34. and the Cyprus bank thing and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing
35. and the Republican Party's rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show his taxes thing
36. and the election hacking thing
37. and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing
38. and the Steele Dossier thing
39. and the Sally Yates can't testify thing
40. and the intelligence community's investigative reports thing
41. and the Trump reassurance that the Russian connection is all "fake news" thing
42. and the Chaffetz not willing to start an investigation thing
43. and the Chaffetz suddenly deciding to go back to private life in the middle of an investigation thing
44. and the appointment of Pam Bondi who was bribed by Trump in the Trump University scandal appointed to head the investigation thing
45. and the alfa-bank thing
46. and the VEB thing
47. and the The White House going into full-on cover-up mode, refusing to turn over the documents related to the hiring and subsequent firing of Flynn thing
48. and the Chaffetz and White House blaming the poor vetting of Flynn on Obama thing
49. and the Poland and British intelligence gave information regarding the hacking back in 2015 to Paul Ryan and he didn't do anything thing
50. and the Agent M16 following the money thing
51. and the Trump team KNEW about Flynn's involvement but hired him anyway thing
52. and the let's fire Comey thing
53. and the Mueller let's fire him too thing
54. and the Election night Russian trademark gifts thing
55. and the Russian diplomatic compound electronic equipment destruction thing
56. and the let's give back the diplomatic compounds back to the Russians thing
57. and the let's back away from Cuba thing
58. and the donny Jr met with Russians thing
59. and now Trump's secret second meeting with his boss Putin.
+ I got this list from Reddit.
What are you talking about? Half true? One reporter misspoke and called the president-elect a candidate. That's a pretty minor error, and it probably didn't even cause a ripple in the economy, unless you think most of the country was getting their Flynn news only from that one single ABC report.
First, I'm talking about the hit to the stock market. Second, isn't this investigation about election rigging, and there's a difference between candidate trump meeting with Russian contacts and PE Trump doing the same. Unless of course this whole thing is an effort to find anything that will stick in order to get rid of the guy. That hardly seems fair to me.
No. The investigation is about 1) possible coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign, 2) any other matters that arise out of the investigation, and 3) any potential crimes committed in order to interfere with the investigation.
When the contact happened would be relevant to determining which (if any) laws were broken by people engaging in said contact, but that's irrelevant to Flynn, because he got in trouble for lying to the FBI, and that's a crime even if his meetings with the Russians were not.
And, again, I really doubt this little error on ABC this morning had any effect on the stock market.
Without going down the long list, why not just start with the one that's most topical and at the top of the list. He broke several laws which would be considered illegal and he has already pleaded to one of them.
Btw the rest of it on the list would be illegal too.
Hillz -- you need to look at this differently. Its not about your team versus our team.
Its about how the system in America is very good at cleaning up the mess it first created. The system works. This is what makes America great and one of the few countries in the world that is willing to wash its linen in public and do the cleaning up too.
Thats what others will see and respect.
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Yes. Flynn broke the law. He lied. He plead guilty to one count. And nobody wins, here. According to the Water Cooler, Trump is either a dastardly mastermind who has managed to outwit the American political system and it's parties or a an idiot with dementia under control of Vladimir Putin, who outwitted the American political system and it's parties. Come hell or high water, his day is'a comin!
The explanation discussed today is that the thrust of the Russian/Flynn conversations was to ask Russia to delay UN votes on sanctioning Israel, thus contradicting US national policy. Flynn was a private citizen at the time and there are limits as to what American private citizens can do on their own to influence foreign governments without authorization if the US government.
Investigations like these is a bit like Chinese cooking using a wok. You spend more time preparing than the cooking itself (in the wok.)
I don't think he planned it, but I certainly think he was aware of it. I can't imagine Kushner approving or acting on this on his own.
You may be missing the point.
Trump's people were allegedly trying to undo US policy regarding the sanctions before Trump was sworn in and before the Trump cabinet appointees were confirmed. I think past practice has been for victorious Presidential transition teams to coordinate their activities with the outgoing administration when those activities concerned foreign governments.
Nobody hated him? I'm not sure where you've been, but most everyone in NY has hated him passionately for decades. I've hated him since I read an article about his shady business practices in the early 90's. There's been speculation that he has been laundering money since then. To pretend like all this is wishful thinking is a sign of deep, deep denial. And if you still think that after today, I'd say that's the state you are in.
Of course I don't have proof. I'm not prosecuting a Logan Act violation. For that matter, neither is anyone else. The only reason the Logan Act was brought up in this thread was because a poster suggested that Flynn might have been smart enough to know he was being asked to do something potentially illegal, and therefore kept some really good CYA documentation*. Another poster asked what could have been illegal, and the first poster offered the Logan Act. That's it. No one** is trying to argue that Flynn or anyone else need to go away for violating the Logan Act. It was simply the answer to a question about why Flynn might have behaved a certain way.
It's always fun to debate crazy laws that have never been enforced, but let's not turn this into a debate about something it's not. Flynn's cooperation and guilty plea has almost nothing to do with the Logan Act. It has to do with the fact that he lied to the FBI. Similarly, his danger to other members of the Trump team probably has almost nothing to do with the Logan Act, but rather has to do with whether or not Flynn can provide any evidence that anyone else lied, committed obstruction, etc.
* Although we never got to discuss it, because of the sidebar, that's not an argument I really buy, FWIW.
** I'm sure someone is.
I think the stock market was from the tax bill. It went up yesterday due to them thinking it was getting passed. Then there was doubt it was going to happen and it fell. Started bouncing back when GOP said they had the votes.
Maybe you remember the Ken Starr investigation?? I imagine this investigation has multiple branches. It's one of the reasons Trump keeps saying they'd better not be looking into his finances. I assume they are. Why wouldn't that be fair? If he broke the law, don't we want to know?
I don't think Trump is smart enough to concoct or lead a complicated Ocean's-Eleven-type scheme either.
But, in Trump's egomaniacal euphoria after the election (but before the inauguration), I can very easily see Trump instructing/demanding his people to get started undoing Obama's foreign policies and to ask the Russians if they had any ideas to help.
That's simple enough even Trump could do it.
Yeah, but conspiracy and obstruction of justice are impeachable offenses. Along with plenty of other things. The standards for impeachment and removal have zero to do with criminal charges.
I’d think you of all people would know that.
Flynn will give up everything he’s got. Because if he doesn’t, he and his son are going to prison for a long time. He’s got every reason in the world to cooperate. And he was the one guy that Trump has tried really hard to protect. So I’d guess he knows a lot.
He would be really dumb to do that now. Pardoning someone forces that person to testify fully- it removes the option of pleading the fifth. True story.
(Edit for auto correct errors from my phone- I usually post on here from my phone, and rarely use my computer here).
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Wrong. I “hated” the guy when it was clear he was a racist, xenophobic, sexually assaulting extreme narcissist bully that was only out for himself. Which was very clear early on when he was still candidate Trump- if you were paying attention and not buying into his BS. Plus, the guy is clearly affected by dementia or some type of mental illness. He simply doesn’t live in reality. I’ve never seen anything like it.
IMO, Kasich is a guy I would’ve considered voting for. I was and never have been a Hillary fan. Trump was so beyond the pale that it infuriates me that he is sullying the office of the POTUS. He’s Permanently lowered the bar- it’s unacceptable. And it has nothing to do with him having an “R” beside his name.
Strap in. This is going to get bumpy. I’d suggest you stop believing there’s nothing to see here, and start paying attention to details. Mueller has got the one guy that was involved with everything. And he’s spilling his guts. It’s a matter of time now.
I know it’s tough to admit that you were wrong. It’s ok. You won’t be alone by the time this is all over.
If the guy did shady/illegal/unethical things, he SHOULD be held accountable. Because he’s president, the proper mechanism for this is through impeachment and removal. After all, we had a president recently that was impeached essentially for a BJ, and then he lied to cover it up. I’d bet you absolutely loved it when that happened. Why the indifference to something that appears to be much, much worse? Quite frankly, the president should be someone with a high set of ethics and values. Even if you don’t agree with that person’s policies, there are certain things that have always been a part of being president. And Trump exhibits absolutely none of them. I wish it were different. I’ve really tried at times to find good things about the guy. There aren’t any. He’s quite literally the biggest POS I’ve ever seen. And a horrible example of what the president should resemble for our youngest among us. I’m pissed my kids see him and think that’s how our president should behave.
Also, are you saying because he’s president that he should be able to do whatever he wants, and it’s ok?
This isn’t a tribal party thing. It’s a protect the foundations of our country thing. Country>party. Every time.
I hope you can take off the partisan blinders, and recognize that Fox News and the other media outlets trying to spin this and cover for Trump are doing a disservice to you right now. Put another way, if a dem was doing anything remotely approaching any of this, you’d have a much different reaction. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t. If Trump remained a Dem, I’d feel exactly the same way. Both as a candidate and as president.
Come to the light Hillz. It’s ok. We will forgive you. There’s room for CO also, and anybody else still defending this POS.
No kidding. Most of the state of New York has hated him for close to 30 years. I couldn't stand him when he was a Democrat, and that was only a couple of years ago.
I would've voted for Kasich in a second. Even Jeb(!). But no, we had to have the pussy grabbing game show host. The guy with the gold covered penthouse (and toilet) and golf club who is a "man of the people."
Hardly seems fair? He's the president of the United States. It's all fair game.
Like what limits are there? Can I call Putin asking him to start sending coal to North Korea so that their people stay warm this winter? That would go against US policy, right? Would I be commiting a felony?
A “True Story”? Actually, a pardon does no such thing. See Burdick v. US. The Supreme Court held that a pardon does not remove the pardonee’s right to invoke the Fifth Amendment. Now, it could eventually backfire against Trump for a variety of reasons, and lead to someone having great difficulty invoking the Fifth Amendment. However, a pardon absolutely does not automatically remove the option of someone invoking their Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.
But Burdick was a case in which someone refused to accept a pardon. Isn't the implication in the opinion that someone accepting a pardon may be compelled to speak on issues covered by the pardon, and not be able to invoke the Fifth? Genuine question. I read this case for one class, and it hasn't come up again since.
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