Anyone with a half a brain knows that Davis went to the championship game with Knight players and that is the reason why he could not duplicate that success.
Brad Stevens/Future with Celtics
- Thread starter HoosierJimbo89
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Anyone with a half a brain knows that Davis went to the championship game with Knight players and that is the reason why he could not duplicate that success.
No, let's slow it down for you kid.
The point isn't that Davis started with more. Of course he did. The point was that Davis went to the national title game with HIS players.
Jerffries and Moye NEVER played for Knight. The best player Knight left Davis, Haston, wasn't even on the team that went to the national title game.
Davis went to the national title game with his players and he did it with his system.
Now....onto the next thing wrong....."Davis inherited a nationally ranked team that had experienced players from consecutive NCAA appearance teams."
Here is an interesting stat....
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2000/03/18/spt_pepperdine_77.html
Hornsby, Coverdale, and Newton were the ONLY players to have ANY NCAA tourney playing time in 2000 that were also on the national title game. 3 players.
And Coverdale played 4 minuets.
Also....at the end of the 2000 season....IU ended the season at 21 (with 5 seniors)
http://collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/seasons.cfm?seasonid=2000#.V3-t_vkrJhE
At the beginning of the 2000-2001 season, IU was preseason...wait for it....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_season#Pre-season_polls
NOT RANKED.
That's right. Davis took over a team that wasn't ranked, got them into the NCAA, and then to the national title game a year later.
Sounds like a stacked team with a lot talent..... lol
Look, if you are going to spout of this crap....at least get some of it right.
Scott Drew and Baylor, considered one of the dirtiest programs in the NCAA DI basketball (and football for that matter). This is whom you are using to compare? You will forgive for not praising your analogy.
Again, you are changing the argument.
Fine...how about the super power of Virginia?
Dave Leitao coached at Virginia for 4 years and compiled a record of 63-60. Finishing 10th and 11th his final 2 years.
Tony Bennett took over in 2009-2010 at the super power of Virginia.
In 7 years, Bennett has gone 165-72 (.696) with 2 ACC conference titles, 1 Conference tourney title, a elite 8, and a sweet 16. Missing the NCAA only 3 times.
Is Indiana and Virginia the same? Should be expect more out of Crean if Bennett can get this done at Virginia?
Then look at Archie Miller, what he has built at Dayton. What could he accomplish at a Indiana?
So now you are comparing how one coach overcame another coach at the same school? That's odd. Yet, when one points out that Marquette did next to nothing since Maguire left until Crean came along, that isn't allowed? What is different in the argument? Same school.
UVa has had plenty of basketball success historically. Ralph Sampson anyone. Bennett's first four years, one NCAA tournament and zero NCAA wins. His last three years, been great except for the NCAA tournament. As a 1 seed three years ago, only the Sweet 16. Remember when Crean did that, he was labeled someone that couldn't coach, but now you say Bennett is terrific with the exact same result. A year later, a 2 seed, only wins one NCAA game. That would be grounds for firing according to some of you guys here. This past year, a 1 seed again, but fell short of the Final Four, where a 1 seed is supposed to go according to the seeding. The double standards continue.
Preseason polls where the media knew nothing about Davis or the team? Is there anything worse than a preseason poll to evaluate a team? Take a look at this past year's preseason poll and how teams ended up. Do that for the last 5 to 10 years. How many teams that weren't ranked in the top 25 preseason end up being so. Do the reverse, how many were ranked that end up not ranked or are significantly worse (i.e. pre season ranked top 10, but end up around the 20's)? Preseason rankings are for fans, not a real evaluation of anything.
That IU team had a number of top 100 kids, 4 and 5 star rated kids with considerable talent. All of them there because they signed to play for a coach named Bob Knight.
Marquette? When did Marquette get in this conversation? You seem to know a lot about them. Did you use to follow them?
Ralph Sampson? The one that graduated in 1982? The year after IU won the title with Isaiah? lol Yep, deep history there kid.
So, IU fans can't expect more because they haven't done anything since the early 1990s but Virginia has history because of one player over 30 years ago? Really?
Again, you are missing the point. Why can't Crean do MORE at Indiana if Bennett can get it done at Virginia? It's that Ralph Sampson influence, right?
Bennett has already done as much at the super power of Virginia as Crean at IU, but somehow Crean has a "double standard".
Keep defending your boy, its cute. He better do something this year....and I hope he does.....but if he doesn't......we can blame it on Sampson.
And here come the excuses....
You said "Davis inherited a nationally ranked team"......he did not.
You were wrong....again....
But think of something else......maybe Ralph Sampson had something to do with it.
Why, your post was terrible and inaccurate. Debunked.
Yes or no, did Davis inherit talented players when he became head coach?
Yes or no, did Davis inherit incoming recruits, including the consensus #9 player in the country, that signed to play for RMK?
Yes or no, did he inherit a team that FINISHED the season ranked and went to the NCAA tournament the previous year?
Yes or no, when players that Knight brought in graduated or left the team, did Davis have the same success with kids he recruited as head coach?
The comparisons made by SnS and others were that the situations of Davis and Crean were the same. They were not. I give you credit for at least being honest about that. They weren't close to the same.
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Marquette? When did Marquette get in this conversation? You seem to know a lot about them. Did you use to follow them?
Ralph Sampson? The one that graduated in 1982? The year after IU won the title with Isaiah? lol Yep, deep history there kid.
So, IU fans can't expect more because they haven't done anything since the early 1990s but Virginia has history because of one player over 30 years ago? Really?
Again, you are missing the point. Why can't Crean do MORE at Indiana if Bennett can get it done at Virginia? It's that Ralph Sampson influence, right?
Bennett has already done as much at the super power of Virginia as Crean at IU, but somehow Crean has a "double standard".
Keep defending your boy, its cute. He better do something this year....and I hope he does.....but if he doesn't......we can blame it on Sampson.
Read this thread and others, I didn't bring Marquette into the thread, others did. Remember the comments, what did he do for them after the Final Four? I can use the internet, too. It isn't hard to be able to read.
I brought up Ralph Sampson as one example. Use the 2007 ACC champions if you wish. UVa is by no means a blue blood at all, but they weren't some backwater program that had no success either.
Why couldn't Bob Knight do MORE with IU the last 6 years? Why couldn't every UCLA coach after Wooden that wasn't cheating (that eliminates Brown and Harrick) do more? Why did Coach K lose to Mercer and LeHigh? Why did Coach Cal's Kentucky team lose to such a poorly coached IU team despite all their 5 star players?
This is sports, that's why. The double standards are made here when people say Crean should do this or that, but when other coaches (perceived better coaches) do the same things, they get a pass. Was Tony Bennett with two #1 seeds and a #2 seed supposed to go far into the NCAA tournaments according to seeds? Yes, but he came up short in all three. That same standard would not be applied here because of terrible logic like "we are Indiana". Your seeding doesn't care if you are Indiana. The seeding, supposedly, says you are one of the better teams and should beat teams worse seeded than you. But yet, the double standard.
Davis took over a team that was nationally ranked the previous season to FINISH the season. Yes, he inherited a nationally ranked team.
Wait....I didn't quote your post there "becauseIknow". I quoted "tru123dt". If you are going to use 2 accounts to have this conversation, at least use the right one so I can keep track of it, ok?
Yes or no, did Davis inherit talented players when he became head coach? Yes.
Yes or no, did Davis inherit incoming recruits, including the consensus #9 player in the country, that signed to play for RMK? Yes.
Yes or no, did he inherit a team that FINISHED the season ranked and went to the NCAA tournament? Yes.
Yes or no, when players that Knight brought in graduated or left the team, did Davis have the same success with kids he recruited as head coach? Yes
Now, some for you...
Yes or no, Did Davis join the IU basketball program in 1997?
Yes or no, Was Davis the lead recruiter for IU before he became head coach?
Yes or no, Does Davis get credit for players signing with IU after 1997?
Yes or no, did Bob Knight spend a lot of time on the recruiting trail in the mid-late 1990s?
Yes or no, did the best player Knight left Davis play in the national title game?
lol, dude you are hilarious....
Yes or no, when Davis coached his first game at IU, was IU ranked?
Yes or no, is the Virginia men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, has Tony Bennett accomplished the same as Crean at a program less than Indiana?
Yes or no, has Archie Miller accomplished the same as Crean at a program less than Indiana?
Yes or no, has Chris Mack accomplished the same as Crean at a program less than Indiana?
Yes or no, did Bo Ryan accomplish more than Crean at a program less than Indiana?
Yes or no, did Scott Drew accomplish the same as Crean at a program less than Indiana?
Yes or no, while Crean has been at IU, has IU been better than Butler, Notre Dame, Purdue, Michigan, Ohio State, or Xavier?
I don't have two accounts. Your follow up questions are really bad, but I have answered them above in red.
This is where you fail, you actually think IU of the past 20+ years was better than some of those programs. I've got news for you, take off the history goggles. There's a reason why in Knight's last 6 years, then Davis, then Sampson that IU won a total of one Big Ten title (shared). We were not the program you still have pegged in your mind, your barometer is way off, for a lot of you this is the case. You are benchmarking against another century. I will be happy to continue this conversation later, but my wife and I hard heading out.
This one is my favorite by far... lol
Yes or no, Does Davis get credit for players signing with IU after 1997? Ultimately, no. Crazy talk. When IU does a press release announcing what players signed with the team, is the lead recruiter listed or the head coach? When North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky sign their classes, do the lead recruiters get the credit or the head coach? Would the lead recruiters land the kids they do without that head coach as the draw for which the recruitment happened in the first place?
Yes or no, the lead recruiter position at men's college basketball programs has no influence on recruits?
Yes or no, is the Virginia men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Xavier men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Purdue men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Michigan men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Butler men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Notre Dame men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Dayton men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
Yes or no, is the Ohio State men's basketball program at the same level as the Indiana men's basketball program?
And finally, depending on your answers above, why is Tom Crean the 9th highest paid basketball coach in the nation?
For the record, I did not mention UK, UNC, KU, Duke, or even MSU.
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So why did those kids not play as well when RMK was coach as they did after Davis took over. Fife was to scared to shoot when RMK was coach and when Davis took over he felt the freedom to shoot just like Hornsby. Coverdale and Odle did not see the floor much when RMK was there and the 4 others who never played for RMK.
Coverdale was a fatty...I've never understood why he gets a pass for coming into his freshman season so out of shape
Jeffries was not Davis's recruit...He verbally committed to IU and Bob Knight on Nov 1, 1999. How does that make him Davis's player? The fact that he never played for Knight matters not if he had not committed to play for him at IU. Same with Moye.
For one, they were slightly older with Davis and most players improve their stats as they get older, more mature. I think you would agree with this. Secondly, they might have just shut the old man out. I think you are right that they played a bit scared for him (RMK), he was not a good coach for all types of players. You had to be able to thrive with that in your face pressure, not everyone does well. I give credit to Davis for taking kids he inherited as far as he took them. I hope you understand that. He did a solid job in that. My commentary is more around whether they would have been there in the first place without Knight, the man and coach they ultimately signed up to play for.
This notion of giving credit to the lead recruiter is weird to me. Some credit, of course. How much is debatable, but I think some are assigning too much value. Crean was the lead recruiter for the Michigan State team that won it all in 2000 and went to the Final Four in 1999. He gets some credit, but ultimately they signed up to play for Tom Izzo and MSU.
Let's use another recruiting example. A headhunter, or recruiter, calls you about a job with Microsoft. You decide to interview, go through the process but do not take the job as it wasn't the right fit. He\she keeps you in their contact list (roladex in my day) in the event of other opportunities. You have a good relationship with this recruiter, he's looking out for you. A month later, he calls about a Google opportunity. You interview, you take the job. How much credit does the recruiter get? Are you going to work at Google for the recruiter? Are you sold on Google because of the benefits, salary, work environment, or because the recruiter was such a great guy? Yes, the recruiter made the connection for you, but ultimately you were sold on taking the Google job (and them on you) because of Google, because of the opportunity, because of many reasons that have nothing to do with the recruiter.
When kids pick a school to play for, the recruiter is key, but it is not the ultimate reason they choose to play at a school. Almost all recruiters are good guys, get along well with recruits, mom and dad love them, they are the salesman and sell the sizzle. That's their job. They are not the reason one commits to a program and stays at a program. Those that do commit solely because of the recruiter, are often the ones that transfer out because life isn't what was promised.
Let's use another recruiting example. A headhunter, or recruiter, calls you about a job with Microsoft. You decide to interview, go through the process but do not take the job as it wasn't the right fit. He\she keeps you in their contact list (roladex in my day) in the event of other opportunities. You have a good relationship with this recruiter, he's looking out for you. A month later, he calls about a Google opportunity. You interview, you take the job. How much credit does the recruiter get? Are you going to work at Google for the recruiter? Are you sold on Google because of the benefits, salary, work environment, or because the recruiter was such a great guy? Yes, the recruiter made the connection for you, but ultimately you were sold on taking the Google job (and them on you) because of Google, because of the opportunity, because of many reasons that have nothing to do with the recruiter.
When kids pick a school to play for, the recruiter is key, but it is not the ultimate reason they choose to play at a school. Almost all recruiters are good guys, get along well with recruits, mom and dad love them, they are the salesman and sell the sizzle. That's their job. They are not the reason one commits to a program and stays at a program. Those that do commit solely because of the recruiter, are often the ones that transfer out because life isn't what was promised.
an awful lot of kids played well in 76, 81 and 87. Congrats to all of those assistant coaches who are responsible for that.
That's true, I agree. But, Davis was on staff during the Jeffries' recruitment. However, I don't recall which coach was the lead in that recruitment. I believe, though, that I remember Davis was hired for his recruiting prowess. The rest is cloudy....
But that wasn't the team that MD inherited. Four of the top six scorers graduated from the 2000 team
So the final poll for that team doesn't matter
Not only were they ranked to finish the season, but they had been ranked 33 of the previous 35 weeks. The only weeks they weren't ranked those 2 years prior were the first 2 weeks of the 99-00 season.
But that wasn't the team MD inherited...Guyton, Lewis, Washington, Richardson and Jimenez all graduated
Understood. We've become accustomed to believing that a coach can't elevate a team to achieve above its pre-season expectations. Hooyah.... (Beat Army!)
The team Davis inherited was a team that got crushed in the tournnament losing to Pepperdine. That team also lost it's best player in Guyton so no Davis did not inherit a ranked team.
I don't think I went back far enough to know what this point is driving at. It was quite obviously a good team in retrospect. Are we trying once again to establish Davis as a miracle worker and Knight a has been? It's cool if it is, Just curious if I might have missed a less outlandish point.
Was Davis on staff as lead recruiter, right? He didn't just bust into IU as a wet-behind-the-ear-recruiter, son... You know that much... right...?
It's a discussion about whether or not the 02 was MDs team or was it still RMKs
The 02 team only had 5 guys that played for RMK
Gotcha! I vote it was MD's team, but I don't think that team has the success it did without RMK's influence on the players he did get to coach. IMO it could have been a much better team with RMK if he didn't run the players off. It's easy to forget that Jeffries never played on a team ranked higher than #20. It just seems that they should have been a lot better than they were... MD's team for sure!
