It is my belief if RMK was still the coach that we don't make that run in 2002
Brad Stevens/Future with Celtics
- Thread starter HoosierJimbo89
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Davis was lead recruiter and Knight rarely was on recruiting trail. Why didn't Jeffries decommit after Knight was fired? Why did he stay another year after Knight was fired?
I don't know if JJ comes back if RMK is the coach
But I do think Haston would've returned
Which is better, with KH and no JJ, or with JJ and no KH
Or you could find some data to prove otherwise.
Was Davis some incredible coach? No
Does he get credit for the national title run? Yes
Is Crean and Davis comparable? Absolutely
And Davis was forced out.
So, the bottom line is expectations....what expectations did Davis not meet and Crean has?
You may be right about Jeffries, but he really seemed like a Knight kind of player to me. One thing is for sure, you couldn't really count on anybody staying from one year to the next with Knight. That was my only real complaint with him as a coach, but it's hard to argue with his kind of success.
Okay, I see better what we're talking about now. Not an awful comparison either. Both walked into really crap situations. Davis had the luxury of 2 McD AA's and Crean had the luxury of what would amount to a two or three year pass from IU supporters. That said I think Crean post Cody has better results than Davis post Jeffries.
Also, Crean probably is preseason Top 10 with another conference title in his pocket. Davis (if memory serves) seemed to be trending down.
Keep going with that.
They are not comparable in any way shape or form. The situations completely different, one guy inherited top 100 talent, the other had to completely rebuild and wait for the NCAA to rule on whether the program he just signed up to coach was going on probation. Davis gets credit for the title run, but with players that signed to play for someone else. Whether that team would have done as well with RMK will never be known. Ever. The facts, however, are those players that he had on his team sans 2, were already on the team and\or signed to play for Bob Knight. Davis did a wonderful job in a bit of a miracle run (we had 12 losses that year) with some favorable seeding, but luck comes into the equation to some extent for the NCAA tournament. His team took advantage of it. We played a 12, 13, 1, and 10 to get to the Final Four. Three double digit seeds, that's living right. The win over Duke was spectacular, not sure if we played them 10 times we would get more than 1 win, but on that day we did. Davis is a good man, I'm glad he was able to accomplish that feat.
The '02 team only (sarcasm) had eight of 11 players commit to play for Bob Knight.
The three that committed to play for Davis as head coach, that year average a total of 3.5 points per game - COMBINED.
The five players that already played for RMK, four of them starters for that team. Ho hum, just 5 guys played for RMK, let's gloss over that 4 of them were starters on that team. The fifth also a significant contributor. Ho hum
By the way, that year we lost to Marquette on a neutral court. Some guy named Crean was the Marquette coach at the time.
From a pure basketball product perspective, one walked into a crap situation, the other walked into a very nice situation. They aren't comparable in terms of quality of players and putting a winning product on the floor.
There were five players that played for RMK, fact! Only 3 of them saw extended minutes for RMK...fact....
Fact, 4 of the 5 started for the '02 team. All five were significant to major contributors. Of course some of them played fewer minutes when they were younger under Knight. How is that anything surprising? Juniors and seniors play more than freshman and sophomores, usually (not always). This is hardly earth shattering.
Fact, 8 of the 11 players on the '02 team signed to play for Knight.
Fact, 5 of the 5 starters signed to play for Knight
Fact, 4 of the 5 starters actually played for Knight
Fact, 3 of the 11 players Davis signed as head coach at IU, they combined for 3.5 points per game that year.
Fact, of the three, only Perry played any type of minutes in the run to the Final Four
Fact, once Knight's players and the recruits that signed to play for Knight were no longer at IU, Davis' teams petered out and he was gone.
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You talk about recruiting being two years out. Any chance that MDs struggles at the end were related to him being a lame duck coach for his first year? Or is it only TC that you allow the excuses to be used?
I'd rather face what TC walked into than MDs situation. MD had it much worse
Those are not facts at all, as you have no idea or way to prove why they chose IU. It may have been, well, a billion possible reasons. Facts are based on, ugh, fact, not conjecture, or opinion, or guesses.
Okay, just wanted to point that out, you can go back to this silly argument now..
From a purely basketball product perspective, your statement rises to absurdity.
Now, if you mean by situation following a legend, then you have much more firm ground to stand on.
Point is, Davis inherited some great players as well as very good players. He did well with them one year. He was given a solid platform on which to start. If he could have had more success after what he inherited, then he would have been in a better spot. Always tough to follow a legend, especially one that acted like a jerk the last few years and forced this on all of us. If Mike had taken over for Bob in a normal fashion, things would have been much better. But Bob couldn't do what he demanded his own players to do, stay in control and follow the rules that his leadership had given him.
I can only take the kids at their word and assume they are not lying. Read the press releases for each of the kids when they signed to play and why they signed to play at Indiana. Each, and EVERY one of them said the chance to play for coach Bobby Knight. Those are facts, those are their statements. Now, you can quibble if they truly believed it, you can say they were lying, you can challenge how heartfelt it was, but ultimately they signed a national letter of intent to play for a school that was coached by Bob Knight when they did it. I take them at their word that their comments were truthful.
The situation was walking into a firestorm
Following a legend is never easy, but that might have been the worst possible scenario
Blatant Racism
Loopers sending recruits negative letters
Most coaches get a 2-3yr grace period(TC got 5yrs) MD didn't get 2-3 days
When he was hired he did have some good returning pieces and a couple of good recruits. Talent wise it was very similar to the team/recruits that TC had when he was hired at IU
You keep pretending that TC didn't try to keep the players, he did and failed. If he knew they weren't going to be here, why did he try to keep them?
They had two summer sessions to get their grades in order. That was never a real issue. It made a good sound bite, all the lap digs licked it up, but it wasn't a real concern to those that know sbout the academic side
TC replace Those with drug users and criminals, and then he replaced those players with more drug users and criminals. Let's not pretend that TC is some sort of disciplinarian...even you are bright enough to know that bs
No one, I repeat no one, thought the NCAA was going to come down hard on IU. It was an issue, but not as big of a one as you make it out to be
One of our posters was Bassets(& Dominic Janes) AAU coach. He will tell you that TC asked him to stay and Bassett said no.. Ask Dakich, he's been straightforward about how things transpired.....the things you don't know are clouding your judgement. Ignorance is not bliss
I pretend no such thing. He tried to keep SOME players. Some of those players didn't want to wait around to see if the rest of their basketball lives at IU would mean no NCAA tournament participation. For some reason, you ignore this. The NCAA rulings didn't come out until after those decisions were made. Why do you ignore this?
You are incorrect on the grades as it relates to all the kids. One, in particular, could not have possibly taken enough courses permitted in Summer school to retain eligibility. That is a fact.
I'm not pretending Crean didn't bring in some guys that caused problems. Ironically, several of them from the state of Indiana. KEEP RECRUITING INDIANA, remember.
You are absolutely incorrect when you say no one thought the NCAA was coming down hard on IU, let alone enough for you to repeat it twice. Read Crawford's statements for wanting to leave, including the uncertainty of the NCAAs. As the team was decimated, he also knew that he had a better chance of going elsewhere with a surrounding cast.
Yes, the poster you mention is Bloom. I've talked to him before via the boards.
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OSU was facing no NCAAs and yet Matta somehow managed to keep the team together. You make it sound like an impossible feat...you ignore this, why?
All of the players were told they could stay, under a set of rules that he didn't apply to any of his future teams...must said no thanks
On the grades issue you are wrong
TC replaced bad apples with other bad apples...fact
Funny that you claim to have inside info, didn't you claim to be out of the country during this period of time?
The fact is that when Matta and TC were hired Matta faced the tougher road. Both had bad apples, both had academic issues, and both were facing NCAA penalties(OSUs were much worse) but somehow Matta didn't need 3 years to get out of last place. He did pretty well in the first year. It can be done, but it takes the right coach
2008 comments from recruits. So much for NO ONE. Rabjohns wrote this article by the way.
"The two most important recruiting periods are April and July, when coaches see dozens of players in person at national events. With the NCAA committee meeting in June to discuss the allegations and prospects unsure what penalties the Hoosiers might face, Sampson and his staff can't make guarantees the team will be eligible for postseason play."
"I think it's tough to convince a top-level prospect who has other options to go to a school where there's a good chance you won't get to participate in the postseason," said Jerry Meyer, national recruiting analyst for Rivals.com.
"Rival recruiters would have a field day going in and talking not about only sanctions and postseason bans, but the coach's job security and, 'Do you want to go to a program that functions that way?,' and pointing out past histories," Bob Gibbons said.
"I'm really concerned," said Stephan Van Treese, the state's top-ranked junior and one of the nationally ranked players in his class considering Indiana.
"If they have violations that they can't go to the tournament, why would I want to go there? The main thing I want to do when I go to college is play in the tournament. I think a lot of players feel the same way. A lot of people won't want to go there if they can't go to the postseason."
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...l/bigten/2008-02-14-indiana-top-recruit_N.htm
One year of no NCAA isn't my idea of coming down hard on a program. I conceded it was an issue but not the mountain that you make it seem....and that's what I actually said, as usual it's not what you changed it to, but that is what I actually said
Nice research but it was pointless
I never said it was an impossible feat. Matta's situation was different for any number of reasons. Players kicked off, etc.
Colleagues talk, that's why I have the information. Colleagues that were there. Email, phone calls, those technologies still work outside of the country. Welcome to the 21st century.
I am not wrong on the grades issue for one particular player.
TC replaced bad apples with good kids. Then later, added a few bad apples, from the state of Indiana mind you. Do you recall Sampson's last recruiting class? None from the state of Indiana. You must have been beside yourself.
It was unknown what the penalties would be. Probation, scholarship limitations, etc. The unknown is a powerful force. Hindsight is 20-20, but when one doesn't know what could come, it impacts many things because student athletes conjur up the worst possible scenarios and opposing teams cannot wait to help them in that process.
Dumes and Story were good kids? You obviously are delusional....but that's been known for quite awhile
The players kicked off were asked to stay, so they weren't really off the team until they chose to be off the team
I wanted KS fired the moment he was hired. I disagreed with pretty much everything about him. But since he was the coach I'm sure you supported and defended him wholeheartedly.
Yes you are wrong on the grades issue
Mattas situation was different, he faced the tougher sanctions at a football-centric school. He faced arguably the tougher situation when he accepted the position
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I've already shown that he did inherit a nationally ranked team. I'm not sure why you're trying to state otherwise.
Maybe it was because Jeffries attended Bloomington North HS...and fulfilled his dream of playing for IU?
Even though the night before Jefferies said he thought he was going to Duke.
So you pick an article from February 15, 2008 and try to spin the situation as what recruits thought about signing up for CREAN? Hell, he was a month and a half away from becoming IU's coach when Rabby wrote this article.
So just who did IU miss out on because of the sanctions? Kyrie Irving? Nope - he was a senior in 2009-10; the sanctions in fact did NOT include a ban for IU from the tournament. And Crean was regarded as having brought in one of the best classes in the nation from the 2008-09 high school class.
Crean was in good shape with Irving - up until he didn't return a phone call to Kyrie's dad for 2 weeks and spent 40 minutes in the bathroom at the Irving house.
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Is it possible for you to be any more literal? I picked an article to show and prove the ridiculous claim that "NO one, I repeat NO ONE thought the NCAA was coming down hard on IU" comment was just that, ridiculous. I could have spent time researching more, but this article proved the point clearly and succinctly. Whether it was recruits, recruiting experts, coaches, there was concern. Read the statements of Delany, Crean, Glass, etc, the day the actual penalities were released (3 years probation for IU). A great sense of relief.
Hindsight is 20/20, to claim no one thought the NCAA was coming down hard is absurd. This article is just one example of the absurdity of the claim. It's also why Crean got the contract he did out of the gate.
You are purposely ignoring the precedent set with Oklahoma. They didn't get hit hard and did more than IU. It's not hindsight when you have precedent
19 F's for a team with 14 players. Two drug suspensions by one player alone, and there were several players involved. It was not good. Probation hanging over their head.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/tom-crean-pulled-indiana-unthinkable-234000788--ncaab.html
You said NO ONE. You were wrong. Players, perspective players, recruiting analysts, coaches. Precedent also suggested a number of schools should have been given the death penalty over the years because of what SMU did, but they didn't. But precedent.
Or the flip side, a school gets hammered like USC despite precedent showing they shouldn't have been. But precedent. Matta had bad apples too, and worse NCAA issues...a player caught cheating, players taking cash, one involved in a knife fight....one managed his situation and one mismanaged his
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