It's not every new coach that walks into a roster with an AA level player on it and Archie is the one who got him to campus. People never refrained from saying Mike Davis made it to a NC with Knight's players, so that's fair to remember in my book.
Woodson: I've learned you win with good guard play and I'm trying to build IU to play like my Knicks teams
- Thread starter BradStevens
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Again in the context of things ie losing 2 starters for the majority of the conference season, expectations are tempered and somewhat altered. If you want to call 22-23 underperforming because some publication picked IU to win the conference 2 months before the season started, feel free.
They were a lock that year. We do know. The B10 tournament was about to tip off, there was nothing that could have happened that would have resulted in them missing that tournament.
I didn't say they were or weren't a lock. The selection process, let alone the tournament, failed to take place. If you want to use a hypothetical situation to rail against Woodson for why he did something with Archie's player that Archie was never able to achieve then knock yourself out.
Woodson barely made it through the play-in and then lost in the first round to St. Mary’s by 29. Quite the achievement.
Woodson was a solid NBA Coach. Much more solid than his overall record appears. Here's why... (your points were good, and supported the argument well). I came away with a better respect for his NBA time...if that means anything.
Most everything else you tied to this back and forth is ridiculous, and wrong...and I think you know that. You're just arguing to argue at this point.
I'm arguing on the merit that he should have been fired after this season. I believe that to be a ridiculous assertion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anything less than a conference championship automatically rendered that season underperforming? Good Lord.
Gotcha...I'm not sure ridiculous is the exact right word. But even though I was one of his more vocal critics, due to style of play, subbing patterns, apparent stubbornness to change...and I'm sure, at times, said he should have been fired. I don't think it was probably as obvious as many were making it out to be.
Having said that, I don't think there would have been nearly any real backlash if Dolson had come up with the money, and fired him. Basketball people would have largely understood. There were/are more than a few former IU players that were on board with it.
So I'm not sure ridiculous is correct.
He didn't narrowly miss winning the conference. But your point is valid. Without Race, and then X, for long stretches, its hard to knock him for not winning the B10. I think the Miami game that year, similar to the a couple of Crean's key games in his better seasons, did a lot to wipe out the good vibes and thoughts about that team.
It would have become a circus. Did you not watch UK miss on their top 6 or 7 targets prior to settling on Pope? Yeah we probably would have hired Dusty May...doesn't tickle me at all. Caught lightning in a bottle two years ago on a fluke buzzer beater, returned his entire team, and lost to NW in the first round down 2 starters. I will promise you that Dusty wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the NIL resources his first year.
I agree wholeheartedly. Team lost 3 games in a row early in the conference slate in January (two they absolutely shouldn't have) after losing Race and XJ and the fanbase collectively lost their minds. Team rebounded winning 8 of 9 but it was too late. Calling it an underperforming season given the context is just nonsense.
Definitely would have depended on who we would have gotten. But there was certainly that possibility. I happen to think, in the end, that's probably a big reason why Dolson didn't end up making a move on Woodson. If there had been someone that was a little more "no brainer" ish...I think he would have made it happen with the money, BOT stuff, etc... Pure conjecture...but you mentioned there wasn't smoke...there definitely was for a few weeks there as the season was nearing an end. And I seriously doubt it was all driven by social media stuff.
I don't think Woodson is all that good of a college basketball coach. His teams aren't fundamentally sound. They're not consistently good with their execution. They're also not consistently good with their effort. These are aspects that are not nearly as coaching reliant in the NBA, as they are in college.
He does seem to be able to coach resiliency. He does seem to be able to develop pro level players in to better pro level players. I'm just very wary that those two things are enough for him to be successful at IU, or at any college program. You HAVE to force kids/young men at this age to play the right way. Pros, for the most part, already get that part. Its about putting them in the right position, managing their time, etc... as much as anything. Kerr's success, as an example, was his vision on how to better utilize Curry's immense talents. He didn't have to do the nuts and bolts teaching, motivating, demanding with those guys. He just needed to have Curry pass the ball to Draymond or Bogut early in possessions, and run movement and screening action off of them to then both utilize Thompson AND Curry, and force teams to chase both of them around...Rather than having Curry dribble up the court, come off a ball screen, and look for a rolling, popping guy, or look for Thompson working off less movement.
Hope I'm wrong, but I'll be surprised if this team does anything special like winning the B10, making an elite 8 or FF...etc... And it'll be because Woodson won't have demanded from them consistency in effort and execution, as much as anything.
There's enough evidence out there that IU (whenever they make a move) isn't going to be able to make the splash hire 95% of this fan base wants them too. Duke and North Carolina didn't even try. Neither did Villanova. Louisville couldn't. Hell Kentucky of all schools swung for the fences and was told no 5-6 times. You aren't going to get proven guys to leave comfy cushions, especially when you have delusional fans calling for the coaches head every offseason. I just don't buy this idea that IU can fire a coach every 12 months because of a disappointing or underwhelming season and be ok simply because they have NIL money. It's no way to build a program and certainly no way of achieving any kind of sustained success.
Anything less than an S16 and this fan base is going to explode. And they might get their wish. But be prepared to be underwhelmed. Brad Stevens ain't coming here. Bruce Pearl ain't coming here. Neither is Bill Donovan or Nate Oats or Scott Drew.
Lots of teams lose players and our starters we lost weren't exactly world beaters. Woodson still had one of if not the best players in the nation and he had a lottery pick at guard. That level of talent is good enough to carry a good team to big things. To that, we have the resources to have solid back-ups.
Again, its not just about one season of failure, as its the entire picture. That is just another one of the failures to go with the rest so its the culmination that leaves us shaking our heads. You ride the wave of offseason transactions and confuse those for success but success can only happen on the court. IU hasn't had it under Woodson.
I don't like HOW his teams play. I don't like how they execute. I don't like the up and down nature of his teams.
So if there isn't a pretty dramatic improvement in things like this, this year...I'd be all for taking a chance on a lesser named guy that has proven his teams do things consistently well. I think now, at IU, a solid coach, that can effectively teach the game to where his teams have consistent things they can do well...and is any sort of personable leader that can harness the IU NIL power...will be more successful than what Woodson has shown thus far at IU.
Honestly don't care whether that person is Woodson or not.
When has IU fired anyone after 12 months? Who was calling for Woodson to be fired 12 months after being hired?
I won't discount Indiana's NIL resources, but I think you're underestimating Woodosn's ability to develop NBA talent as a legit selling point. Case in point with Kel'el Ware. No doubt he got paid to play here but I don't think it was anywhere close to his #1 priority.
It was in response to a poster yesterday (YOTHN) who said firing a coach after a disappointing season is a much more viable option in today's climate because NIL has changed the landscape and curtailed long rebuilds.
Yea, Woody may figure it out and coach several more years. If not, other coaches can succeed here with our resources. Probably not a big name, but there are plenty out there who can do it. The decision making group at IU (whoever they really are) need to learn how to identify one of them when the time comes.
Oh I give Woodson a lot of credit for developing TJD, JHS, and Ware. And for reshaping our roster this past offseason. I think it was a glimpse at what he could be able to routinely accomplish in today's NIL/Portal environment.
My ongoing concern, and until he proves it wrong it'll remain a concern, is he isn't very good at making teams better than the sum of their parts. He isn't very good at teaching, motivating, demanding solid offensive and defensive principles. And at the college level, you have to be able to get younger players, even if they're older transfers, to play solid basketball on both ends of the floor.
I think he'll "figure it out enough" to get another year after this year. I think with a solid NCAA appearance this year, whether he makes the 2nd weekend or not, wins the B10 or not, he'll be retained. And then I think he'll be able to bring back a decent core again from guys like Rice, Carlyle, Tucker, Newton, Cupps, etc... And he'll have the NIL backing to go fill the rest with impactful guys.
For many, that will feel good as it will be an improvement on this past season, and there will be some stability and optimism with the roster for the next season. But we won't end up being really any closer to getting back up in to the pre 1995 Indiana Basketball situation/status. And I don't think it's going to take a homerun, Stevens like candidate to get us back there, with our NIL capacities.
My support for Woodson, or lack thereof, is based much more on how they play, than the overall results. But if I had to put any results thresholds for my support in retaining him...Top 2-3 in the conference, and truly contending for the top spot. And then a good showing the NCAA. To me, that likely means winning at least 1 game, and not getting blown out in whatever round they lose in. If they battle down the stretch, and end up finishing 3rd in the B10, get a 4/5 seed in the NCAA tournament, lose a closely contested 2nd round game to a 4/5 seed, that's probably good enough. Especially if they show more consistency in effort and execution.
After this year he will have two years left on his contract. It will be time to think extension or succession planning. It seems like Mike may want an extension. I don’t know. Will be interesting…
OMG. You are so depressing when you post realistic assessments.
…and this after some took the position (as I understand it) that a former NBA coach with an overall losing record and never been out of the second round and was fired and couldn’t find another head coaching job was actually a good coach of note that was victimized by Steve Mills.
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Jeez , I so much hate watching the Disney Zendaya series when my daughters seize control of the electronics.
Excuse me if anything comes off as rude but KC Undercover is a real downer for me.
I am bleeding from my ears.
Excuse me if anything comes off as rude but KC Undercover is a real downer for me.
I am bleeding from my ears.
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Although I still disagree with your conclusion, like IUNorth, I appreciate that you dug through the stats to make your case.
The disagreements here often stem from lack of uniformity in what posters consider acceptable performance for a coach. Some consider just a 20 win season sufficient. For others a first or second round exit from the tourny is good enough. For me, as a long term IU fan, it’s championships and at least making progress for championships. Coaches that aren’t progressing then are just placeholders. Tried it, didn’t work, so hopefully next time better. I don’t know when I expressed a different view on this forum.
Assuming uniformity of what constitutes coaching acceptability then disagreements about what the past implies for the future. CMW has appeared seven times in the post season (NBA and IU) and has missed the post season five times. In his seven appearances he has never made it out of the second round. For me this implies that some feature of his coaching has resulted in lack luster performance in the post season and extrapolating that implies lack luster performance in the future.
Could he turn it around-absolutely. Could he make a good tourny run next year-possible. My only point is it is difficult to expect this considering his coaching history. A reasonable expectation based on his history is a second round exit and for me that is unacceptable performance.
Assuming uniformity of what constitutes coaching acceptability then disagreements about what the past implies for the future. CMW has appeared seven times in the post season (NBA and IU) and has missed the post season five times. In his seven appearances he has never made it out of the second round. For me this implies that some feature of his coaching has resulted in lack luster performance in the post season and extrapolating that implies lack luster performance in the future.
Could he turn it around-absolutely. Could he make a good tourny run next year-possible. My only point is it is difficult to expect this considering his coaching history. A reasonable expectation based on his history is a second round exit and for me that is unacceptable performance.
It's funny that you say "turn it around". Also funny that you don't take into account what his NBA coaching tenure included,except what is convenient to your thought(if you will). Did you take into account the first season in NY? Took over a team who was not going to make the playoffs,and went 18-6 down the stretch to make the playoffs. The next season won 54 games with the same team(shows progression towards a championship). After that year the Knicks(a dumpster fire) canned the GM,and started tearing down(new gm was ass). He was gone after the following disappointing season because the Knicks brought in Phil Jackson and cleaned house. Then when he went to Atlanta,he took a shit team and won more games every season of his tenure,getting them up to 50+ wins in his last year. Does that sound like progression to you? Your critique is based on your lack of knowledge. Especially when "progressing" is exactly what Woodson did. The fact that you can't see how his hands were tied in the roster building for his first 2 seasons here is all anyone needs to know.
The guy is an idiot. I let it be a few days ago. Hilarious one can conclude a coach is a simply a “placeholder” after 3 years. He has a top 10 roster this year.
Woody has done a good job recruiting, but he has a top roster thanks in large part to having access to top-5 NIL to compensate players.
Of course you leave out that important context in your role as Woody’s angry PR Rep.
NBA teams took a detailed look at Woody as a head coach, much more in depth than anyone on this board, and all of them passed on hiring him again as a HC for many years. They weren’t impressed with his progression, among other things. He wasn’t bad in the NBA, but he wasn’t exactly good, if he was he would have been hired again.
Despite this, he could do well with top-5 NIL at IU. It’s not that hard and I think he will be okay this year, plus he probably learned some lessons the past few years that could make his past struggles less of an issue (I hope). But there are some legit concerns with his track record.
If top 10 then has a real good shot at final 8 or higher so let’s see. Excuse me if I don’t hold my breath.
So because IU is finally willing to play the “game” it’s now a crux? Lol what a crock of shit. You think Duke, UK, Kansas, etc have been doing this kosher all these years?
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