"Walking Man" apparently a known homeless guy in Chicago, was set on fire and is likely to die.

[Crayfish57]

My sentiments exactly. It was something that brought people together. Built neighborhoods and community. Even if it was only for the kids

Probably one of the best things were some forms of community child care. As a person with a multitude of preachers whether actual or thought they were who has seen the family problems caused right down to my own parents. I have no use for it personally.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I've been an atheist since I was 10. I disliked religion and the church for its obvious falseness, stupidity, and hypocrisy (Catholic by upbringing, but went to services of some Protestant friends).

But the older I get, the more I see the value in institutions and traditions that bring people together and focus on things outside themselves. Religion is one of those things.

But people in the Western world aren't going back, I don't think. Religions are smartly focusing on the Third World and that is where it will thrive. Secular, rich states will not go back to a supernatural God, I don't think, but their populations will always fall sway to various secular religious-like movements (Marxism, anit-racism, etc.), I think, because it's human nature.

Disagree about the "not going back part". Life is a pendulum. Society closely resembles the actions of a teenage daughter, only on a longer swing radius.
As posted earlier, hard times make strong men (people), strong men make easy times, easy times make weak men.... yadda yadda.. The pendulum will come back, just like the 16 yr old daughter who wished you dead, totlly respects you at 25.
I agree with you about the value of the institution of religion. A deity is promoted as the center of most all of them. I don't think that is actually the important effect creator thought (god save me). It's the community, the structure, the equality of the "rules", the holding each other accountable, that helps each of it's participants to achieve closer to their potential and find an inner peace.
Signed, Van Joe_hoopsier pasterman.

 

[ulrey]

do you read how people talk to each other around here? Would you ever believe we would have a president talk the way Trump does? Other day is was railing against Kemp in Georgia , calling him a loser and a bunch of other shit like a 3rd grader would.

Are you going to be ok?

 

[kurt cloverdales]

Are you going to be ok?

doing as well as could be expected I guess. thanks for your concern

 

[UncleMark]

I agree with you about the value of the institution of religion. A deity is promoted as the center of most all of them. I don't think that is actually the important effect creator thought (god save me). It's the community, the structure, the equality of the "rules", the holding each other accountable, that helps each of it's participants to achieve closer to their potential and find an inner peace.

It's called Fellowship. A magic sky wizard isn't necessary; that seems to be the default foundation, but there can be other things that people can gather 'round.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It's called Fellowship. A magic sky wizard isn't necessary; that seems to be the default foundation, but there can be other things that people can gather 'round.

Like what? Sports is exclusive. School related stuff outside of school is infrequent. What compared to weekly church and church shit. It was regular. Inclusive. Etc.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Same here, I could never get over the grift even as a kid.

I consider myself a fairly pragmatic soul and there's so much about the church model that has always seemed obvious in it's brilliant and profitable set up.

1. You don't sell anything that costs the church money. You're selling words about something that no one knows anything about and therefore can't be proven. Faith.

2. You thrive during hardships making your business near bulletproof to economic recessions.

3. Points 1 and 2 aren't bad. We need a safe place to go for comfort. Where the church loses me is again in the selling and grifting part.

20 years ago my girlfriend at the time and I gave it another shot but yeah, it's the same formula. I cynically would whisper it to her before each section.

1. Here is why we're evil.
2. Here's how God is great and will save us.
3. Give us some money now thanks (and do it publicly to add more social pressure to separate your money from you).

It's a business transaction. You want my money, what do I get in return from you? Salvation?

Can I get a receipt for that please? Are you my salvation broker now? I pay you to deliver something that no one can prove exists?

Shut up.

I have two guys I know who became pastors/preachers (whatever their title is)....and they are both absolute morons. One, who was a good friend in HS, barely graduated because his grades were terrible. Seriously he couldn't pass Algebra 1. Four years trying.

You're the guy who is the expert in 'God's plan'.

Shut up

He's doing pretty well in the religious game so good for him. He's never been what I consider much of an empathetic soul and he of course tries to save me about once every few years (same pattern, he reaches out as 'old friends' but it quickly turns to a sales call. Ugh).

Lastly, no offense, but I don't see much inspiration, particularly intellectual inspiration from the devout religious fanatics.

I just see the grift. Manipulators manipulating the vulnerable.

My hometown (Bedford) has had a pretty rough couple of decades economically. They added a couple more massive cathedrals in that time (seriously one is as large as an arena). There's already beautiful large limestone churches every other block and this newer one dwarfs them all.

'Poets, priests and politicians have words to thank for their positions' - The Police

I see where you’re coming from, especially with the mega churches. But I think you sell churches short on the amount of charity work they do, which is enormous.

Sure, some of that money goes to charlatans. But a LOT of it goes to the poor and downtrodden, which is how it’s supposed to be.

You wanna bitch about the Osteens of the world, I’m right there with you. But that little church in that little town that sings at nursing homes, provides a thanksgiving meal to the poor every year, and does grocery giveaways every month is incredibly valuable to the community it’s in.

 

[UncleMark]

Like what? Sports is exclusive. School related stuff outside of school is infrequent. What compared to weekly church and church shit. It was regular. Inclusive. Etc.

Bowling. Kiwanis. Card clubs. Morning coffee klatch.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

It's called Fellowship. A magic sky wizard isn't necessary; that seems to be the default foundation, but there can be other things that people can gather 'round.

Did the Mrs's replace your Preparation H with Icy hot? Why did you have to use the "magic sky wizard"?
Was my post not respectful and to the point ?

People gather around the Rainbow parade, but that Unicorn Deity doesn't seem to help people draw on their inner power for good. Which is kind of weird, one would think that Unicorns would be wholesome and uplifting, not antagonistic and hate perpetuating.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Bowling. Kiwanis. Card clubs. Morning coffee klatch.

They don't compare. Young and old. In and out. Rich and poor. Routine. Talking about taking care of each other. Etc.

I'm just spitballing but things appear to be on the decline and I thought the stats reflecting that significant decline in religion membership in the last twenty years was interesting.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

They don't compare. Young and old. In and out. Rich and poor. Routine. Talking about taking care of each other. Etc.

I'm just spitballing but things appear to be on the decline and I thought the stats reflecting that significant decline in religion membership in the last twenty years was interesting.

The decline can be for pure selfish reasons. I'm an example. I stopped going about14 yrs ago. For no other reason than I didn't want to continue with a hectic, organized Sunday Morning. I put my comfort in front of the pageantry. This isn't something I am bragging about, quiet the opposite but I will admit it and own it. I put short sighted wants before anything else. I didn't "leave" religion, I just adapted from a set schedule.

 

[mcmurtry66]

The decline can be for pure selfish reasons. I'm an example. I stopped going about14 yrs ago. For no other reason than I didn't want to continue with a hectic, organized Sunday Morning. I put my comfort in front of the pageantry. This isn't something I am bragging about, quiet the opposite but I will admit it and own it. I put short sighted wants before anything else. I didn't "leave" religion, I just adapted from a set schedule.

For sure. Premier league is on etc

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

For sure. Premier league is on etc

I didn't say I was a satanist, damn man. That crap aint even a sport. RED CARD !

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

They don't compare. Young and old. In and out. Rich and poor. Routine. Talking about taking care of each other. Etc.

I'm just spitballing but things appear to be on the decline and I thought the stats reflecting that significant decline in religion membership in the last twenty years was interesting.

I know of a place where the young and old, rich and poor, man and woman, Republican and Democrat still come together fairly routinely, hoping beyond hope for the next Coming.

Yes, their hope is irrational. Some say the Coming will never occur. But Assembly Hall is still being filled with the faithful, waiting . . .

 

[mcmurtry66]

I know of a place where the young and old, rich and poor, man and woman, Republican and Democrat still come together fairly routinely, hoping beyond hope for the next Coming.

Yes, their hope is irrational. Some say the Coming will never occur. But Assembly Hall is still being filled with the faithful, waiting . . .

They are segregated. Ever sat under the balcony? Can't even see the Fing score

 

[hoosboot]

Like what? Sports is exclusive. School related stuff outside of school is infrequent. What compared to weekly church and church shit. It was regular. Inclusive. Etc.

I think there are many people who would quibble with you about the universal inclusiveness of church. You could just as easily poke holes in the value of religion as a community and fellowship builder as you are in the examples Mark provides.

I think Mark makes a good point...if the point is to develop more community and fellowship and interest in religion is waning (for a variety of reasons), it seems like focusing on finding other ways to build community and fellowship outside of religion would be a really good idea.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I think there are many people who would quibble with you about the universal inclusiveness of church. You could just as easily poke holes in the value of religion as a community and fellowship builder as you are in the examples Mark provides.

I think Mark makes a good point...if the point is to develop more community and fellowship and interest in religion is waning (for a variety of reasons), it seems like focusing on finding other ways to build community and fellowship outside of religion would be a really good idea.

I'm down. I just can't think of anything comparable

 

[snarlcakes]

I'm down. I just can't think of anything comparable

And neither have our ancestors for the past however many thousands of years. Like languages, laws, morality, and etc. religions have survived because humans haven’t come up with better ideas for societies (or there is a God).

The notion that religion is around because our ancestors were dumb, is a rather silly take on its importance and benefits for societies (not saying this is your take).

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

 

[CradleofBasketball]

It's called Fellowship. A magic sky wizard isn't necessary; that seems to be the default foundation, but there can be other things that people can gather 'round.

4chan is a fellowship. DNC is a fellowship. GOP is a fellowship. BLM is a fellowship. United Methodist Church was a fellowship. IU fans were a fellowship. Gaming is a fellowship. Tribalism is fellowship. Pro-Abortion is a fellowship. Prescribing humans to pursue human things while professing allegience to human relativity and doubling down on the ableness of human understanding, all for the sake of a convenient, yet self-preserving, coexistence might be part of the problem. That's what this culture has been doing. We're breeding natural born killers.

What else can we gather 'round?

 

[Indianaftw]

Nailed it. Dead On!!!!! People are gonna people.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Disagree about the "not going back part". Life is a pendulum. Society closely resembles the actions of a teenage daughter, only on a longer swing radius.
As posted earlier, hard times make strong men (people), strong men make easy times, easy times make weak men.... yadda yadda.. The pendulum will come back, just like the 16 yr old daughter who wished you dead, totlly respects you at 25.
I agree with you about the value of the institution of religion. A deity is promoted as the center of most all of them. I don't think that is actually the important effect creator thought (god save me). It's the community, the structure, the equality of the "rules", the holding each other accountable, that helps each of it's participants to achieve closer to their potential and find an inner peace.
Signed, Van Joe_hoopsier pasterman.

I don't agree with the more cynical takes here, but what religion does is provide a set of guidelines that should be unassailable. Even for those who go astray of those guidelines, there is an agreed upon rulebook that everyone follows. Now you will sometimes have some minor interpretation differences, but the core philosophy is generally agreed upon.

Secular humanism's only boundary is what we have not convinced ourselves is good yet. Our move to everybody going their own way has been a disaster. It plays out in the news daily.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I don't agree with the more cynical takes here, but what religion does is provide a set of guidelines that should be unassailable. Even for those who go astray of those guidelines, there is an agreed upon rulebook that everyone follows. Now you will sometimes have some minor interpretation differences, but the core philosophy is generally agreed upon.

Secular humanism's only boundary is what we have not convinced ourselves is good yet. Our move to everybody going their own way has been a disaster. It plays out in the news daily.

I have no idea if there is a correlation. I just thought that the rapid decline in attendance was interesting in light of what seems to be a declining society

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I don't agree with the more cynical takes here, but what religion does is provide a set of guidelines that should be unassailable. Even for those who go astray of those guidelines, there is an agreed upon rulebook that everyone follows. Now you will sometimes have some minor interpretation differences, but the core philosophy is generally agreed upon.

Secular humanism's only boundary is what we have not convinced ourselves is good yet. Our move to everybody going their own way has been a disaster. It plays out in the news daily.

I disagree. Most of the core philosophy found in the major religions is the same-the Golden Rule, most of the Ten Commandments, focus on love, not hate, etc.

Most secular humanists believe in that core philosophy as well (I do). I think that must be partly human nature as a social species (there are all types of game theory explanations for morality, for example). The difference is that the secularist seeks a rational, naturalist explanation instead of a supernatural one.

As for everybody going their own way, read Pinker. He analyzes violence stats, etc. and says we are actually becoming more peaceful. We are also, in the West, becoming more tolerant of differing lifestyles, etc. To the extent it's just about tolerance, I'm all for it (and I bet given your past posting history that you are, too).

It's when we cross over the line and think tolerance means equal results for all that is the problem, in my mind, mostly because it ignores reality--that is, the natural world. I don't think it's any coincidence that anti-racism, hard trans activism, etc. deny reality in favor of more religious-type ideology and thinking, some of which borders on the supernatural.

As for the mass shootings, the underlying cause here is that we have a lot of very, very disturbed and marginalized people with access to increasingly deadly weapons and technology. It's not either one or the other of those two things, it is both.

I think what religion might do to combat this is give these people a place to feel like they are not marginalized by society--that they are loved and valued by a community or a supernatural being (I think you need the former to feel the latter, but I could be wrong). But even that might not stop the truly mentally ill (like the Sandy Hook shooter, and maybe this Uvalde shooter).

 

[mcmurtry66]

I disagree. Most of the core philosophy found in the major religions is the same-the Golden Rule, most of the Ten Commandments, focus on love, not hate, etc.

Most secular humanists believe in that core philosophy as well (I do). I think that must be partly human nature as a social species (there are all types of game theory explanations for morality, for example). The difference is that the secularist seeks a rational, naturalist explanation instead of a supernatural one.

As for everybody going their own way, read Pinker. He analyzes violence stats, etc. and says we are actually becoming more peaceful. We are also, in the West, becoming more tolerant of differing lifestyles, etc. To the extent it's just about tolerance, I'm all for it (and I bet given your past posting history that you are, too).

It's when we cross over the line and think tolerance means equal results for all that is the problem, in my mind, mostly because it ignores reality--that is, the natural world. I don't think it's any coincidence that anti-racism, hard trans activism, etc. deny reality in favor of more religious-type ideology and thinking, some of which borders on the supernatural.

As for the mass shootings, the underlying cause here is that we have a lot of very, very disturbed and marginalized people with access to increasingly deadly weapons and technology. It's not either one or the other of those two things, it is both.

I think what religion might do to combat this is give these people a place to feel like they are not marginalized by society--that they are loved and valued by a community or a supernatural being (I think you need the former to feel the latter, but I could be wrong). But even that might not stop the truly mentally ill (like the Sandy Hook shooter, and maybe this Uvalde shooter).

It might provide marginalized people a place to go and a community to belong. It may also increase community awareness of people who are in trouble and need intervention. If mom is participating regularly saying she's worried about her son etc.

Or not. I don't know

 

[Noodle]

I know of a place where the young and old, rich and poor, man and woman, Republican and Democrat still come together fairly routinely, hoping beyond hope for the next Coming.

Yes, their hope is irrational. Some say the Coming will never occur. But Assembly Hall is still being filled with the faithful, waiting . . .

Has the feel of the Heaven's Gate cult. When will the comet arrive?

 

[larsIU]

Has the feel of the Heaven's Gate cult. When will the comet arrive?

You mean banner #6


I bet it's before PU gets #1

Happy Memorial Day Weekend. I will cheer for the PU band and their big ass drum of stupidity on Sunday.

 

[All4You]

My sentiments exactly. It was something that brought people together. Built neighborhoods and community. Even if it was only for the kids and adults saw through it

I'm sure there will be those who roast me but I would add the decline of community also coincides with the decline of the nuclear family, consolidated school systems replacing neighborhood and small town schools, the lack of parental involvement/supervision due to both parents working, the double edged sword of unfettered and instantaneous access to information and entertainment...much of which shouldn't be consumed by minors.

 

[mcmurtry66]

I'm sure there will be those who roast me but I would add the decline of community also coincides with the decline of the nuclear family, consolidated school systems replacing neighborhood and small town schools, the lack of parental involvement/supervision due to both parents working, the double edged sword of unfettered and instantaneous access to information and entertainment...much of which shouldn't be consumed by minors.

I'm sure lots of those things contribute

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

I'm sure there will be those who roast me but I would add the decline of community also coincides with the decline of the nuclear family, consolidated school systems replacing neighborhood and small town schools, the lack of parental involvement/supervision due to both parents working, the double edged sword of unfettered and instantaneous access to information and entertainment...much of which shouldn't be consumed by minors.

I definitely think those are worthy of consideration.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

Bowling. Kiwanis. Card clubs. Morning coffee klatch.

Soccer, wordle, moderating political forums, the Hallmark Channel.

 

[BayernFan]

Was going to write something similar about the rise and fall of the great nations in the old testament and what rotted them. This sums it up pretty well and we are here right now...IDK who wrote it but nothing could be closer.

View embedded media

I want a camel!!!

 

[vesuvius13]

I don't know that I believe. But maybe believing is only part of it. Maybe the rules, the sense of community, the interacting with your neighbors and community, and all the trappings have benefits outside of believing or not. A place to go. Other than a sterile quack's office. The church blew it with the abuse shit.

The key is to care about someone more than yourself, if you do, then you can make decision that benefit more than just yourself. Some get this through church, others with a moral code, some because they fear being seen poorly by others, etc.

 

[vesuvius13]

I told fellow teachers in the mid 1990s that I feared we headed to the roaring 1920's again. Morality was shot in the country - especially cities - massive political corruption in big cities, women went from showing ankles were scandalous to flappers with mini skirts, speakeasies and organized crime, etc. It looked as if the USA was on the decline especially with the coming of the Great Depression.

It took the Great Depression and WWII -massive societal shake-up to turn things around. I hate to think we must go through that again just to change people' s attitudes. Don't forget the 1960's and how bad they were with bombings, home grown terrorist groups, massive protest of 500k or more against the war in Vietnam. We have been through these before and come out in stronger shape after OPEC boycotts, run-away inflation of the late 1960 through early 1980s on and on. In this country things swing back as people get feed up with what is happening.

 

[jet812]

I see where you’re coming from, especially with the mega churches. But I think you sell churches short on the amount of charity work they do, which is enormous.

Sure, some of that money goes to charlatans. But a LOT of it goes to the poor and downtrodden, which is how it’s supposed to be.

You wanna bitch about the Osteens of the world, I’m right there with you. But that little church in that little town that sings at nursing homes, provides a thanksgiving meal to the poor every year, and does grocery giveaways every month is incredibly valuable to the community it’s in.

All good points, I just wish they would do those things without sitting on billions of dollars. Historically the Roman Catholic Church (which I grew up in) was the worst but the Mormon church is the new symbol of greed in religion, with the opulent tabernacles & hundreds of billions in hedge funds While they demand 10% from their constituents, encourage breeding in large numbers, & grift in South America to grow their income. Those gold tablets must have really been something