Probably correct. But I'd say winning enhances the fan experience a great deal.
We consistently sellout Assembly Hall, so I don't think the fan experience is keeping people away.
Trilly on the IU Head Coach Position
- Thread starter Tammany Hall
- Start date
We consistently sellout Assembly Hall, so I don't think the fan experience is keeping people away.
I'd say 80-95% of IU fans aren't thinking of firing Woodson. They're thinking we suck this year and hopefully next year will be better. I'd say close to 95% of IU fans are oblivious to Woodson having gotten a raise. Hell, I'd wager there's a good chunk of IU fans that don't even know who Scott Dolson is.
This place, Twitter and other message boards is an echo chamber of a few hundred/thousand fans who are uber interested beyond just the two hours when the games are taking place. It can skew reality.
I have quite a few acquaintances that are IU basketball fans in varying degrees, but don't hang out like losers on message boards. Whenever I've mentioned anything about Woodson being in trouble they invariably look at me like I grew a second head. Woodson getting fired isn't something that most people are even considering. It's just a narrative on boards like this. And it's not going to happen.
I do agree that there is a large % of fans who aren't even of the mindset that Woodson is at the end of his rope. Those who often don't miss a game yet also don't get on fan forums or care to read about social media posts around IU bball. I know some of those folks who were shocked at the boo's while I was shocked that they were shocked. Now, after some education we were on the same page and although I don't think its 80%, I do think its higher than most on here realize.
This is why we need to be vocal and the boo's were the first step in getting some of those who have their head in the clouds, back down to reality. That moment forces people to question what our side could be thinking and hopefully create a bigger wave of fans who are on the same page.
Partially agree what you are saying, but many of the big NIL and overall university donors are passionate. The AD and many former players fall into the passionate camp. Your average 4 hour per week fan in not influencing this decision.
None of us know what will or won't happen, including you as this situation is still very much playing out.
I think your general sentiment might be correct...that "Woody needs to be fired" isn't as widespread a thought or belief as it seems on this board... but your percentage are likely way too high. I have a lot of active college basketball fan friends, fans of various teams, some just general fans, and to a man, without me having to poison their opinions...they're incredulous that Woody is IU's basketball coach. Now, I would say that because many of us played in college, some are coaches in high school, etc... that maybe we look at things differently than the "average fan"...but again, I think IU's fan base sees the fundamental issues at a higher rate than you're giving it credit for.
But back to your point...its probably not obvious enough, on a wide enough scale, yet...for Dolson and company to feel like a change HAS to be made right now.
At this point, and of course we don’t know for sure and it might change, but it seems Scott *may* want to do something but there isn’t much interest from the other key decision makers/influencers. Woody seems to be our coach for next year.
First off...you're here "hanging out".
Secondly...to see the main issues with IU basketball, it does probably take someone that notices style issues, fundamental issues, roster construction issues. Hanging out on a message board doesn't make you more basketball saavy. But maybe your friends just don't know much about basketball? My wife is an "Indiana fan", but she doesn't know more then 2-3 players names on this team. She was shocked when I said Woody is not a good basketball coach earlier this year. Those types of fans aren't, and have never been, the ones that drive the overall sentiment of IU's fan base.
The crowds are down. Woody is getting boos in Assembly Hall. A lot of people that are actively "spending money" on IU basketball right now, and/or spending extra time talking about them, aren't happy with the direction of the program. You know, the people that are actually paying attention.
If the season ended today, I doubt Woody gets cut loose, but there are a few games left. Not sure which way the wind will be blowing after we lose out. The timing on Billy Donovan is RIGHT, if he indeed would entertain the thought of coming back to the college game.
As much as I would love to see Brad Stevens on the IU sidelines, I think that ship has sailed. BD would be my next choice, then Pearl/Beard. If you don't talk/pay one of those out of their current positions, then just FUDGE IT.
Lol. I'm fully aware of the box I placed myself in.
That dude is coming to IU, never. Along with Stevens, and Dixon, and all those other impossible names that seem to get trotted out on here when people become disillusioned with the current coach.
If Donavon ever came back to the college game (he won't) he'd likely end up at UK. No way a guy like that comes to Bloomington. I don't care how much is in the Brink's truck.
Just making sure...ha ha.
On Donovan... I can't think of a reason why he'd stay away from IU, if he were interested in getting back in to college coaching.
I think just like too many of us assume anyone/everyone would just love to coach at IU...there are also too many that assume too much on the negative side as well.
On the whole, since RMK, we've given all of our coaches, except for Sampson for obvious reasons, plenty of time to prove themselves. Archie was the least amount of time, and that was a full 4 seasons. So I don't think we have some sort of dysfunctional situation or program where we fire coaches on a whim.
And honestly...I would have to think someone like Donovan, or any elite, higher profile candidate, would understand a quicker than normal Woody firing.
Give Donovan 7+ million, another 1+ million in incentives... I bet he'd take IU pretty seriously if that was offered to him, and he were entertaining college coaching.
Almost a decade removed from NCAA basketball. Has never dealt with NIL or the portal.
No problem, we could just hire Thad and Dane! 😁
Timing sucks, actually. The NBA regular season ends in mid-April, a month after the portal opens.
It stinks but Woody is likely safe regardless. The AD may have interest in changing him out, but not much interest from any other key group or booster, unfortunately.
Yeah...Donovan would either have to quit NBA early, sit out a year and get hired in to college next March, or start out over a month late, and miss out on potential recruiting battles.
I think a part of it also has to be, why would a guy like Donovan (and his wife) want to leave a high class life in Chicago to come to Bloomington Indiana. Same reason Stevens (and his wife) didn't want to leave Boston. I can't stand living in big cities but when you have the money that these people do it's a completely different experience. Kirkwood Avenue and Lake Monroe doesn't quite compare to the Mag. Mile and Lake Michigan.
Sadly, you're probably correct. The only glimmer of hope is a can't-miss coach IU couldn't pass up.
Side note: While he's not a coach right now, I'm 100% certain Woody would be gone if Stevens expressed an interest. I know, I know, I'm living in a fairytale.
I know what we discuss on here is of zero consequence...but it does seem more likely that we should be considering/talking about what Woody can do, to get the ship turned back in the right direction.
Here are some ideas...
1. Coaching staff shakeup...get rid of one of the "recruiter" assistants. And bring in a proven college head coach, from somewhere. Preferably one that has taught styles and principles that you believe in. If Woody wants to stick with his "nail" defense...scour the coaching ranks for coaches that have successfully coached that same defense, and won a lot of games doing it, as an example.
2. Late signee/Portal full court press... He needs to make a goal of finding a starter level player for each position. ESPECIALLY the guard positions.
3. Reinvent himself, his expectations for his staff and his expectations for his players. Sit with them at seasons end, lay out expectations of excellence. Most importantly the process that they're all going to meticulously adhere to, between now and the start of next season. And if they're not on board with that, they should leave. Most importantly, HE has to adhere to these expectations too. He might already do these things, but he needs to be at Cook Hall bring and early, and leave late. Instill that workers mentality. He needs to scour film of the styles and teams he wants to emulate, become a master at recognizing what good habits look like, and always be aware of whether his staff and players are progressing towards those habits or not.
I'm not asking some Joe Schmoe off the streats to reinvent himself, to change his path, to dramatically improve. I'm asking a guy that was an All American, that played for one of the best coaches to ever coach the game, that had the opportunity to be around, watch, experience players at the TOP, for a number of years...I'm asking THAT guy to tap in to all those experiences, and resolve to get better. And stop allowing "we're young"..."I can't take the shots for them"... stop allowing those to even be thoughts in his head, let alone things he says publicly to justify failure.
Woody CAN do all this. Its just questionable that he thinks he needs to, or has the desire to put all the work in to do it.
Not so fast... How do you know boosters don't want to move on? I think plenty of them are watching and seeing what folks on here are seeing. A month ago, I thought no way, but the losing has an effect on people. And, I don't know the workings of a BOT at a University, but hiring/firing a head coach is generally the AD's domain. If SD is truly convinced CMW isn't the right guy, and if he truly is getting resistance from the BOT, he can still exert a fair amount of pressure by somehow making it public he thinks they should make a change, if for no other reason than to protect himself if CMW is retained due to the BOT and we suck next year. Seems to me, that's sort of what's happened with Trilly. If the losing continues, so to will the leaks I suspect and I think the boosters will also exert pressure. Those are the folks that count, not the "average IU fan".
Could be...I think that would depend on their own personal preferences.
Also, living in Chicago, with a 6 million dollar per year job, might not be an option to Donovan any more. If it were, he'd have reupped his contract by now, I would think. He could obviously choose to live there without being the Bulls coach, if he enjoys it that much in Chicago.
He's not yet 60 years old though...I would think he probably still wants to keep making good money. I have no clue how well regarded he is as an NBA coach? But his market value as a college coach is easily 6+ a year, I would think.
Good post, but I don't see Woody ever getting this program back on track. He'll likely be here next season, but that's just delaying the inevitable.
if Iowa job was open, do you think Donovan would be interested in it, if he decided he wanted to return to coaching? we are Iowa with a bunch of ancient banners. sucks but it has become reality.
I agree, 65 year old guys don't generally reinvent themselves to that degree. It would be great if he could, I'd still like to see him succeed but I'm not particularly expecting it.
This is why a current coach makes more sense imo. Why did Billy leave college & are things different enough to bring him back? Even if the answer is yes, does he know how to navigate today’s landscape? No more “experiments”, time for a more proven commodity in today’s game.
If they'd pay him 6+ million, and ensure that he has top tier NIL resources, sure.
There are financial realities that give IU a much more legitimate chance at a coach like Donovan, or Stevens, or any elite level coach like them, that would consider college coaching again.
The unique advantages that IU offers, when the right guy does end up landing in Bloomington, will pay big dividends.
Tom Crean inherited a dumpster fire. He basically HAD to go backwards even before he could even think about rebuilding a program. And he had to do it before NIL/Portal dynamics. It only took him a couple years to start winning epic recruiting battles, and 3-4 years to have IU back on the top of college basketball on the court. He just wasn't capable of maintaining it. Rebuilding IU basketball is not nearly as daunting a challenge as our near 3 decade long disappearing act would have us believe.
Teach the game well.
Establish and maintain relationship with Indiana HS and AAU people.
Utilize NIL money to ALWAYS have talent and depth at each position.
Utilize NIL money to win high end 4/5 star level recruiting battles, with guys that make sense and fit your program.
There are a lot of guys out there that would be willing and capable of being highly successful at IU.
I hear you. I’m going off Trilly’s sources saying there are a handful boosters tying Dolson’s hands. I’m a nobody, but the people I know say the same thing. I don’t get it, why would they give more money? I’m just one person’s point of view on the matter. I’d love to have all signs pointing to a change, that would be great for our fans, players, students, school. Anyways — hopefully I’m totally wrong.
Demographics probably play a role. If the donors in question are "older" and still feel nostalgic for RMK/IU basketball, Mike Woodson is still a name they probably feel comfortable supporting. Especially if Quinn Buckner is advocating for that. Heck, its even very possible there are very wealthy donors that don't even go to the games any more, but still give large amounts of money. "All American legend Mike Woodson needs your help!" "One of Coach Knights all time favorite players, Mike Woodson, needs your help."
Also, hearing excuses, ideas for improvement, justifications, etc... from someone like Mike Woodson probably gets heard differently than it did from Archie Miller.
He may truly believe CMW has this and will turn it around next year. Just because we don’t agree with him doesn’t mean he doesn’t have positive intent…
I agree we can easily upgrade. just don't think Donovan would be interested. Archie has made a lot of people believe that getting a mid-major is too risky. I don't think that's the case, he didn't work out we moved on, most coaches have to start somewhere. would you be happy with Underwood? he was Illinois equal to Archie. if Donovan leaves the Bulls there would be tremendous interest from a lot of programs. when you talk about the Donovan's stevens and wrights of the world, the money IU can throw at them could be matched by a lot of high-profile programs.
I just don't think Donovan is realistic. but I'm damn sure Woodson is in over his head thought that even when he was having some success. you can't let one failed hire like archie , lead you to never take chances again on an up-and-coming coach. look at Arizona Florida and a bunch of other examples of no name coaches turning programs around instantly.
If it has to be an experienced guy at a major d1, Beard and Pearl need to be at the top of the list
I can't see how anyone is happy. But there's a big gap between not being happy, and being mad enough to stop funding something you're heavily invested in, and dearly love.
I agree. I think he thought he was the guy when they hired him.
