fla just banned trans from competing in sports in the athletes transitioned to sex. if you go by the assumption boys are physically stronger than girls I can see where this would be unfair completive advantage . imo very tough issue to be fair to everyone involved, also in the debate you would have kids taking what could be considered performance enhancing drugs.
transgenders in sports
- Thread starter kurt cloverdales
- Start date
I think I agree with you on this one, but I also feel for the kids , they live with enough stigma and this basically bans them from sports. as a side note there should be a age restriction on these re-assignment surgeries 15 years old is way to young to be making this type of decision.
And honestly I shouldn’t say that without understanding the med/biology. If testosterone etc changes enough maybe they lose the bio advantage of being a male.
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don't know, if I was going to remove my Johnson I would think I had more things to deal with than making girls varsity.
There is not a whole lot of proof transgenders have an advantage. I get it in theory. But transgenders have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004. To date, 0 gold medals. Renee Richards played in some non-sanctioned tennis tournaments and did not win.
The article below will mention a CT lawsuit on the issue. The week after the suit was filed, one of the cisgender athletes whose parents were involved beat one of the trans athletes named.
www.scientificamerican.com
From that article:
The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity.
The article below will mention a CT lawsuit on the issue. The week after the suit was filed, one of the cisgender athletes whose parents were involved beat one of the trans athletes named.
Trans Girls Belong on Girls' Sports Teams
There is no scientific case for excluding them
From that article:
The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity.
I do think the big hubbub has centered around an Olympic weight lifter who transitioned from male to female and will likely crush the field in Tokyo.There is not a whole lot of proof transgenders have an advantage. I get it in theory. But transgenders have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004. To date, 0 gold medals. Renee Richards played in some non-sanctioned tennis tournaments and did not win.
The article below will mention a CT lawsuit on the issue. The week after the suit was filed, one of the cisgender athletes whose parents were involved beat one of the trans athletes named.
Trans Girls Belong on Girls' Sports Teams
There is no scientific case for excluding them
From that article:
The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity.
I just see a lot of asterisks in the future.
She has competed in two world championships and finished second and sixth. So far she isn't a billboard for unfair competition. But that could change.
Thinking about it, muscle might not be as testosterone driven as we were led to believe, but guys also have a natural height advantage. I do not know the history of trans basketball players but a 6'3 male is far more common than a 6'3 female. Basketball MIGHT be a sport where this matters. But I suspect the sample size is far too small to know one way or the other.
According the link below there's a good chance she will medal but I would agree she isn't far and away better. However, I can't shake that she is filling the spot of someone born female (physiologically) who worked and sacrificed for years to reach the Olympics. Plus she transitioned rather late in life. I have to believe somebody transitioning at 25 would be at a different level.
Like others in this thread I have no idea how to resolve this problem.
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108392/big-read-laurel-hubbard
Bigger thicker bones. What about muscle memory etc. the benefit of years of competing against other men. Alex Morgan and Rapinoe etc are on par with quality 15 yr old boys. There has to be advantages that you don’t lose
Meanwhile, Bloomington Baptists just ordained a trans woman. Yes, Baptists.
University Baptist Church ordains transgender woman, a first for the denomination
Laura Bethany Buchleiter, a transgender woman, is ordained in a ceremony at Bloomington's University Baptist Church.
www.heraldtimesonline.com
Yeah doesn't matter where she finishes, she just needs to be in the Olympic field and the terror will spread like wildfire is my guess.
The seed is already planted that millions of dudes are cutting off their weiners just to be able to win a high school championship, that when that story of a trans powerlifter is shown...I can only imagine Ingraham's, Carlson's and Hannity's heads will explode like scanners.
There is not a whole lot of proof transgenders have an advantage. I get it in theory. But transgenders have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004. To date, 0 gold medals. Renee Richards played in some non-sanctioned tennis tournaments and did not win.
The article below will mention a CT lawsuit on the issue. The week after the suit was filed, one of the cisgender athletes whose parents were involved beat one of the trans athletes named.
Trans Girls Belong on Girls' Sports Teams
There is no scientific case for excluding them
From that article:
The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity.
Telfer is a trans woman but competed on the Franklin Pierce University men's track and field team in 2016 and 2017. In the 400 m hurdles at the 36-inch men's division height, she ranked 200th in 2016 and 390th in 2017 among NCAA Division II athletes competing in that event in the men's division those years
Then he won the NCAA title against women.
If you want women to have less equality.... then I'm all for it
An average male has a distinct advantage in athletics over an average female. If there were no differences then there would not have needed to be a reason to separate the 2 sports to begin with. Pulling out examples from the Olympics where you have the literal best of the best on the women's side competing against a male who in no way, shape, or form would be in the Olympics on the male side is not really the barometer IMO. That guy that placed second in the world for the women would not even be invited if he were treated like a guy. The fact he is in the Top 10, In The World, on the women's side should be the alarm bell. And oh yeah, that person we are talking about is 42 years old. I believe that person also set the record at like 145 kg. The record on the Men's side is like 500 kg.
People born with an X and Y chromosome and a penis that think they are girls should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.
Damn. can you imagine thinking after a lifetime of effort this was finally going to be your year and you look over and there's telfer!!
Telfer is a trans woman but competed on the Franklin Pierce University men's track and field team in 2016 and 2017. In the 400 m hurdles at the 36-inch men's division height, she ranked 200th in 2016 and 390th in 2017 among NCAA Division II athletes competing in that event in the men's division those years
Then he won the NCAA title against women.
If you want women to have less equality.... then I'm all for it
this is worse than the fake birth certificates. jdb you'll appreciate this. htere's an african soccer player under investigation (forget which country - national team) that they just learned his mom died in 1986. he was born in 1990 lol
I don't disagree. At some point common sense has to enter the picture.
The shame is that this wasn't dealt with at the various sports' organizations/federations/committees level. That would have prevented the Limbaughs and the Hannitys and the DeSantis's from making political hay out of it.
For the trans athlete, while I can sympathize, sometimes life just isn't fair. I sometimes think I'm tall, dark, and handsome, but that doesn't mean GQ owes me a cover shot.
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problem is mark if some federation did establish guidelines it would immediately be challenged in court, the issue will have to be dealt with politically
So let me get this straight....your takeaway from the Renee Richards saga in the late 70's is well, he/she didn't win any tournaments? So no harm, no foul....There is not a whole lot of proof transgenders have an advantage. I get it in theory. But transgenders have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004. To date, 0 gold medals. Renee Richards played in some non-sanctioned tennis tournaments and did not win.
The article below will mention a CT lawsuit on the issue. The week after the suit was filed, one of the cisgender athletes whose parents were involved beat one of the trans athletes named.
Trans Girls Belong on Girls' Sports Teams
There is no scientific case for excluding them
From that article:
The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity.
Ok, fine..... but Richards was 43 fracking years old when he/she turned pro. Competing against some ladies at least 25 years her junior, in a sport where youth is an asset, especially among females.
Oh, and despite being far from his athletic prime, Richards still rose to be 20th in the world.
Bad example, Marv.
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I don't think its disputable a trans woman would have distinct physical advantages competing against normal women
Notice how this wasn't an issue 20 or even 10 years ago. I suppose organizations should have been more forward-looking, but they couldn't/shouldn't have anticipated the mental health problems in this country (and this isn't just limited to trans debate).
I actually agree with you and everyone who is saying that it's an advantage.
I should have been clearer in my post. My 'worry' and I'm already hearing it from my right wing friends that this is commonplace.
That's where I disagree. I don't think dudes are cutting off their weiners to gain an advantage in sports as the main reason.
I believe the trans choice is much, much, much, much more of a personal choice and the thought of 'hey I'm not starting at BNL and I don't want to transfer to Mitchell so...wait, I could cut off my dick and then lead the lady stars to glory is a hyperbolic and exaggerated thought of reality.
My fear is that will be the mindset that's fanned and feigned by right wing media, causing dudes to get needlessly pissed off and lash out believing that we have a trans athletic epidemic.
I think it can be handled with more empathy than with how I'm expecting it to go based on current conversations.
There are not a lot of examples. So far trans women have not dominated sports but the sample size is small.
Ok, but Richards is a very poor example of trans athletes who didn't dominate their sport. Like I said he was 43, when he turned pro. Had he chosen to transition earlier, he waited until 1976, a year before turning pro, he may have a force in women's tennis in the early 60's. He was the captain of his tennis team at Yale and also invited to tryout for the Yankees.
Some of kids today are having this gender reassignment shit done preteen. They still have the prime of their athletic careers ahead of them.
total insanity has taken over.
M to F trans have absolutely zero business competing in women's sports, and young kids have zero business having surgical and pharma sex transitions.
that it's even being debated is total insanity.
M to F trans have absolutely zero business competing in women's sports, and young kids have zero business having surgical and pharma sex transitions.
that it's even being debated is total insanity.
I actually, personally feel that kids shouldn't be able to legally get a tattoo before they turn 18....or any narcissistical cosmetic surgery.
So yeah gender identification vs gender transformation are two completely different things.
Empathy from our community should be a given. I have an issue with that, especially those that claim they believe in the pursuit of happiness....after you turn 18. ;-)
It's absolutely not total insanity to debate the best way to provide guidance and community for young people who feel like outsiders. It's insanity to simply hide behind generic platitudes like "It's not fair."
For many years, there was a famous feminist music festival in Michigan, cleverly called "Michfest," which had what they called a "womyn-born womyn" policy. It was supposed to be a place where people could come together and share the experience of a particular type of identity - namely that of being women, not just current identity, but raised as, grown as, lived as, women. They took some heat from the LGBT community for not being more inclusive.
I have no problem with Michfest's policy, but it's not because of some idiotic reason like letting a trans female buy a ticket would have taken the spot from some other deserving cisgendered woman. No, it was a healthy policy because the organizers felt there was value in sharing the experiences and pain of being a cis woman. It wasn't that they didn't like trans women; it was just that this particular space was set aside for something else, for women who had a particular, life-long experience (and trans women may have their own life-long experience of being trans women, but it's inherently different from that of cis women).
Youth sports isn't about naming champions. It's about the lessons people learn playing sports, the drive, the dedication, the training, the teamwork. We should mold our policies on how best to accomplish that without leaving anyone behind. If having an exclusive "womyn-born womyn" sports system accomplishes this for women, great. Let's do it. But let's not do it because we are scared that some chick with a dick will hold the Tennessee state record in the 200-meter butterfly. That's just f*cking stupid.
It's funny that so much of this thread seems to assume that all of these trans athletes are having sex reassignment surgery. They probably are not. My understanding is that sex reassignment surgery is far less common than transexuality. Most of these trans women playing sports probably still have their natural driver and Titleists.
I don’t know how common this is or whether this is a solution in search of a problem but your account of youth sports is off by more than a decade goat. Those values and lessons are long gone. Parents are psychotic and dropping $10k or more a year for little Jane and they expect that investment to pay off. Youth sports have lost their way - I can only imagine the response to a trans athlete from the majority of these modern off the rails parents if they thought jane’s chances were being compromised
Then the parents are the problem. We always here about how youth sports are valuable because they teach teamwork and leadership, about how youth sports participants are more likely to be successful later in life. If the truth is we just have a bunch of parents trying to buy their children trophies, then that's a them problem.
