Time to end the Mueller Theatre

[toastedbread]

The reapted hearings aren't making a dent in the psyche of the American public. It's now a political question for the 2020 election. Elect a Democratic President and Trump will face justice.

Time to start the business of legislating. It's time to force Republicans to take tough votes in the Senate. The Mueller Theatre is now a distraction.

 

[zeke4ahs]

The reapted hearings aren't making a dent in the psyche of the American public. It's now a political question for the 2020 election. Elect a Democratic President and Trump will face justice.

Time to start the business of legislating. It's time to force Republicans to take tough votes in the Senate. The Mueller Theatre is now a distraction.

Vehemently disagree. How many people do you think actually know what is in Mueller report? They know what their news source told them. At the least, Mueller must testify. Congress must do what Mueller wanted and investigate the obvious, still ongoing obstruction. If we don’t even attempt to stop this lawless president, then there is absolutely zero checks and balances and any president can do whatever they want. The people were clear in the 2018 election . They want a check on this corruption.

 

[toastedbread]

Vehemently disagree. How many people do you think actually know what is in Mueller report? They know what their news source told them. At the least, Mueller must testify. Congress must do what Mueller wanted and investigate the obvious, still ongoing obstruction. If we don’t even attempt to stop this lawless president, then there is absolutely zero checks and balances and any president can do whatever they want. The people were clear in the 2018 election . They want a check on this corruption.

At this point, it's solely a political question. The votes are not there in the Senate. This administration will stall all investigations through the courts. It all boils down to the results in 2020.

It's time to start legislating and put pressure on Senate Republicans.

You are completely misreading the 2018 elections. The Democrats won because voters were afraid of losing their healtchare. Only in the most partisan of districts did impeachment play a major role in the campaigns.

As we see with Biden's current poll numbers, the majority of voters are not living in intellectual bubbles on twitter.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Vehemently disagree. How many people do you think actually know what is in Mueller report? They know what their news source told them. At the least, Mueller must testify. Congress must do what Mueller wanted and investigate the obvious, still ongoing obstruction. If we don’t even attempt to stop this lawless president, then there is absolutely zero checks and balances and any president can do whatever they want. The people were clear in the 2018 election . They want a check on this corruption.

At this point, it's solely a political question. The votes are not there in the Senate. This administration will stall all investigations through the courts. It all boils down to the results in 2020.

It's time to start legislating and put pressure on Senate Republicans.

You are completely misreading the 2018 elections. The Democrats won because voters were afraid of losing their healtchare. Only in the most partisan of districts did impeachment play a major role in the campaigns.

As we see with Biden's current poll numbers, the majority of voters are not living in intellectual bubbles on twitter.

I’m not even necessarily talking about impeachment. I’m talking about investigating and letting the people actually hear what happened. Do you really think Mueller just wanted them to drop it? Certainly not the way I interpret it. Of course the senate won’t vote to impeach. He could shoot someone and most of the cowards could care less. I think the Dems are capable of investigating AND legislating. You truly think that they should just let Trump get away with his continued obstruction and say never mind. You’re right. No collusion. No obstruction.

 

[toastedbread]

I’m not even necessarily talking about impeachment. I’m talking about investigating and letting the people actually hear what happened. Do you really think Mueller just wanted them to drop it? Certainly not the way I interpret it. Of course the senate won’t vote to impeach. He could shoot someone and most of the cowards could care less. I think the Dems are capable of investigating AND legislating. You truly think that they should just let Trump get away with his continued obstruction and say never mind. You’re right. No collusion. No obstruction.

According to reports, Mueller doesn't even want to testify.

Nancy Pelosi understands that the party needs to focus on the issues that matter to voters. Healthcare is one such winning issue.

As for the rest of your post, i have it on good authority that house dems are incredibly "disorganized". There are other issues, which equally require oversight. They are struggling to walk and chew gum.

 

[Spartans9312]

At this point, it's solely a political question. The votes are not there in the Senate. This administration will stall all investigations through the courts. It all boils down to the results in 2020.

It's time to start legislating and put pressure on Senate Republicans.

You are completely misreading the 2018 elections. The Democrats won because voters were afraid of losing their healtchare. Only in the most partisan of districts did impeachment play a major role in the campaigns.

As we see with Biden's current poll numbers, the majority of voters are not living in intellectual bubbles on twitter.

I would say the lowering of the SALT deduction played a larger role than healthcare in the mid-terms.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I would say the lowering of the SALT deduction played a larger role than healthcare in the mid-terms.

The tax plan passed late 2017 for 2018. Most people really ignore their taxes until January, so the exact impact of SALT was lost on most people when they voted in November of 2018. Sure, there are people at the higher end who have to really worry about their taxes all year and especially self employed. But I am not sure how much of a difference it would have played for the majority of people in the payroll tax class.

 

[Spartans9312]

The tax plan passed late 2017 for 2018. Most people really ignore their taxes until January, so the exact impact of SALT was lost on most people when they voted in November of 2018. Sure, there are people at the higher end who have to really worry about their taxes all year and especially self employed. But I am not sure how much of a difference it would have played for the majority of people in the payroll tax class.

You have certain congressional districts in California, New York , New Jersey that flipped where the SALT deduction played a key role. And was probably the main reason

 

[MrBing]

Vehemently disagree. How many people do you think actually know what is in Mueller report? They know what their news source told them. At the least, Mueller must testify. Congress must do what Mueller wanted and investigate the obvious, still ongoing obstruction. If we don’t even attempt to stop this lawless president, then there is absolutely zero checks and balances and any president can do whatever they want. The people were clear in the 2018 election . They want a check on this corruption.

I agree with you. The House needs to finish this investigation. I think it's already certain that Trump obstructed justice and I think that's not all there is. He has to be held accountable and if it means impeachment that's the right thing to do.

 

[UncleMark]

I agree with you. The House needs to finish this investigation. I think it's already certain that Trump obstructed justice and I think that's not all there is. He has to be held accountable and if it means impeachment that's the right thing to do.

I'm going to trust Nancy's judgment. I think a full on impeachment hearing might just play into Trump's hands. However, if the courts somehow rule that the various subpoenas can't be enforced based on oversight or legislative fact-gathering reasons, then starting impeachment hearings may be the only way the House investigations will be able to get the documents and testimony they need. No court could rule that an impeachment proceeding isn't a "legitimate" congressional function and not enforce subpoenas based on that power.

 

[hootch1]

If we stop now, we have a dangerous precedent and I do not that out there for any party to have that.

Let's close this down while we have this in front of us.

This goes beyond Nixon.

 

[MrBing]

I'm going to trust Nancy's judgment. I think a full on impeachment hearing might just play into Trump's hands. However, if the courts somehow rule that the various subpoenas can't be enforced based on oversight or legislative fact-gathering reasons, then starting impeachment hearings may be the only way the House investigations will be able to get the documents and testimony they need. No court could rule that an impeachment proceeding isn't a "legitimate" congressional function and not enforce subpoenas based on that power.

I know some think that impeachment hearings could politically hurt some Democrats for 2020 but I don't agree with them. I don't think it's true but if it was true that it might politically hurt a little I wouldn't care because impeachment hearings are the right thing to do for the country. We can't ignore Trump's criminal obstruction. You got the emoluments thing too which he is breaking. Impeachment hearings are the only way the House has to address this. I think it's a duty for them to do it. We bitch about Pubs putting their party interests before their country and we shouldn't allow our politicians to do the same.

 

[MrBing]

If we stop now, we have a dangerous precedent and I do not that out there for any party to have that.

Let's close this down while we have this in front of us.

This goes beyond Nixon.

Absolutely agree.

 

[UncleMark]

I know some think that impeachment hearings could politically hurt some Democrats for 2020 but I don't agree with them. I don't think it's true but if it was true that it might politically hurt a little I wouldn't care because impeachment hearings are the right thing to do for the country. We can't ignore Trump's criminal obstruction. You got the emoluments thing too which he is breaking. Impeachment hearings are the only way the House has to address this. I think it's a duty for them to do it. We bitch about Pubs putting their party interests before their country and we shouldn't allow our politicians to do the same.

I'm totally with you in spirit. However, there is essentially zero chance Trump would ever be removed from office. Therefore, we need to consider the practical outcomes to an impeachment proceeding that will ultimately fail. One of those outcomes might be Trump's re-election. That's a risk I wouldn't take.

If nothing else, I could see starting the impeachment process in the House and slow-walking it through the 2020 election, using it as leverage to compel testimony and the discovery of evidence necessary to continue exposing Trump's corruption and/or criminality. No need to ever vote on actual articles of impeachment, just keep the hearings going.

 

[MrBing]

I'm totally with you in spirit. However, there is essentially zero chance Trump would ever be removed from office. Therefore, we need to consider the practical outcomes to an impeachment proceeding that will ultimately fail. One of those outcomes might be Trump's re-election. That's a risk I wouldn't take.

If nothing else, I could see starting the impeachment process in the House and slow-walking it through the 2020 election, using it as leverage to compel testimony and the discovery of evidence necessary to continue exposing Trump's corruption and/or criminality. No need to ever vote on actual articles of impeachment, just keep the hearings going.

See this is where we disagree. I don't care that the Senate would probably not convict. I think it's the House's duty to have impeachment hearings and it's also the right thing to do. We should demand that our politicians do the right thing. They often don't so we've come to accept that so I'm not going to accept it. I agree they need to expose more of his corruption and impeachment hearings will do that.

Trump could get reelected whether they do impeachment hearings or not. If he's reelected without the impeachment hearings he's still the same corrupt and criminal Trump deserving impeachment. Then any impeachment hearings would make the Democrats look like poor losers instead of people doing the right thing. It would be the right thing but it wouldn't be MORE right than it was before the election. That's a risk I don't want to take.

 

[UncleMark]

Trump could get reelected whether they do impeachment hearings or not. If he's reelected without the impeachment hearings he's still the same corrupt and criminal Trump deserving impeachment. Then any impeachment hearings would make the Democrats look like poor losers instead of people doing the right thing.

How about this: go ahead and start the impeachment process, but slow-walk it through the election. Don't even get to the point of actually voting articles of impeachment out of committee, just use it as a vehicle to continually expose Trump's corruption and/or criminality. If he wins, then proceed. If he doesn't, they can be magnanimous and bring the proceedings to a close, claiming that he's been impeached by the voters.

 

[toastedbread]

I know some think that impeachment hearings could politically hurt some Democrats for 2020 but I don't agree with them. I don't think it's true but if it was true that it might politically hurt a little I wouldn't care because impeachment hearings are the right thing to do for the country. We can't ignore Trump's criminal obstruction. You got the emoluments thing too which he is breaking. Impeachment hearings are the only way the House has to address this. I think it's a duty for them to do it. We bitch about Pubs putting their party interests before their country and we shouldn't allow our politicians to do the same.

Ensuring Trump is a one term president is the most patriotic thing the democratic party can do at this point. Impeachment proceedings are a wormhole leading nowhere. A recent 538 opinion piece suggested that they probably won't hurt in the polls (though it's possible they might), but they definetly won't help.

I prefer that the party focus on issues that will win votes and will help electorally.

 

[toastedbread]

How about this: go ahead and start the impeachment process, but slow-walk it through the election. Don't even get to the point of actually voting articles of impeachment out of committee, just use it as a vehicle to continually expose Trump's corruption and/or criminality. If he wins, then proceed. If he doesn't, they can be magnanimous and bring the proceedings to a close, claiming that he's been impeached by the voters.

It's a very simple equation... if you dont have the votes in the Senate, this is a useless equation. They won't have the votes and they will never have the votes barring a smoking gun. Nancy Pelosi appears to be the only strategist within the party who understands this. We can not afford 4 more years of Trump. Otoh, we will survive without continued investigatons leading nowhere. Lest we forget, the state of NY continues to investigate and Trump may face federal obstruction charges should he lose in 2020.

 

[zeke4ahs]

I'm going to trust Nancy's judgment. I think a full on impeachment hearing might just play into Trump's hands. However, if the courts somehow rule that the various subpoenas can't be enforced based on oversight or legislative fact-gathering reasons, then starting impeachment hearings may be the only way the House investigations will be able to get the documents and testimony they need. No court could rule that an impeachment proceeding isn't a "legitimate" congressional function and not enforce subpoenas based on that power.

I know some think that impeachment hearings could politically hurt some Democrats for 2020 but I don't agree with them. I don't think it's true but if it was true that it might politically hurt a little I wouldn't care because impeachment hearings are the right thing to do for the country. We can't ignore Trump's criminal obstruction. You got the emoluments thing too which he is breaking. Impeachment hearings are the only way the House has to address this. I think it's a duty for them to do it. We bitch about Pubs putting their party interests before their country and we shouldn't allow our politicians to do the same.

I agree. For once do the right thing without regard to political expediency. People thought the GOP would pay for their impeachment of a sex act and that didn’t happen. I imagine the election will hit before this wraps up. But we at least need to get the investigation in front of the public.

 

[toastedbread]

I agree. For once do the right thing without regard to political expediency. People thought the GOP would pay for their impeachment of a sex act and that didn’t happen. I imagine the election will hit before this wraps up. But we at least need to get the investigation in front of the public.

4 more years of Trump is an existential risk. I've actually had my life impacted in a severely negative way due to this President.

After today's performance by Trump, the best thing the Dems can possibly don is to slow their roll on the investigations while that plays out in the courts. In the meantime, conduct oversight of equally serious issues and pass legislation.

E.g. on their own initiative pass legislation to rein in pharmaceutical prices. Pack the heat on pubs for 2020.

I don't really give a damn about pointless exercises in virtue signalling. The cancer must be removed from office and the only way to ensure that is by winning at the ballot box in 2020.

 

[MrBing]

Ensuring Trump is a one term president is the most patriotic thing the democratic party can do at this point. Impeachment proceedings are a wormhole leading nowhere. A recent 538 opinion piece suggested that they probably won't hurt in the polls (though it's possible they might), but they definetly won't help.

I prefer that the party focus on issues that will win votes and will help electorally.

The party can do more than one thing at a time and doing the right thing is always what we should demand. Impeachment hearings are the right thing with all the evidence of crime and corruption that's known.

 

[MrBing]

How about this: go ahead and start the impeachment process, but slow-walk it through the election. Don't even get to the point of actually voting articles of impeachment out of committee, just use it as a vehicle to continually expose Trump's corruption and/or criminality. If he wins, then proceed. If he doesn't, they can be magnanimous and bring the proceedings to a close, claiming that he's been impeached by the voters.

If he wins and we proceed after obviously slow walking the hearings I think that's going to be real bad for the country and for the party.

 

[MrBing]

I agree. For once do the right thing without regard to political expediency. People thought the GOP would pay for their impeachment of a sex act and that didn’t happen. I imagine the election will hit before this wraps up. But we at least need to get the investigation in front of the public.

Yes we need to show that we can do the right thing even if some people think it might not be the politically best thing. I still disagree with that idea but it is possible they're right and I still say screw that. Do the right thing. It is what all Americans should expect from our elected representatives. It would be a very refreshing change!

 

[toastedbread]

Yes we need to show that we can do the right thing even if some people think it might not be the politically best thing. I still disagree with that idea but it is possible they're right and I still say screw that. Do the right thing. It is what all Americans should expect from our elected representatives. It would be a very refreshing change!

And give us 4 more years of existential risk. No thanks. Somethings are more important than principle. No one cares about principle when Rome is burning.

 

[zeke4ahs]

You know this is exactly the discussion going on in the halls of Congress right now. Amash came out of nowhere , so maybe some other brave souls will too.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Yes we need to show that we can do the right thing even if some people think it might not be the politically best thing. I still disagree with that idea but it is possible they're right and I still say screw that. Do the right thing. It is what all Americans should expect from our elected representatives. It would be a very refreshing change!

I will say after the last time this came up, you pretty much talked me into your position. I just would love to hear from Mueller first. If for any reason the process starts and Mueller comes out and says that Barr was right, it isn't doing the right thing as much as committing ritual seppuku.

 

[toastedbread]

The party can do more than one thing at a time

Except they aren't. I've been told by a good source that they are "extremely disorganized." E-day is in a little over 1 year.

 

[MrBing]

I will say after the last time this came up, you pretty much talked me into your position. I just would love to hear from Mueller first. If for any reason the process starts and Mueller comes out and says that Barr was right, it isn't doing the right thing as much as committing ritual seppuku.

That's a good point. We need to hear from Mueller first but I don't think he's going to say something we don't expect. The report is clear that there was obstruction of justice.

 

[MrBing]

Except they aren't. I've been told by a good source that they are "extremely disorganized." E-day is in a little over 1 year.

We're going to disagree. I disagree that they can't do more than one thing at a time. And I want them to do the right thing and you want them to do what they need to do to win an election even if it isn't the right thing.

 

[hoosboot]

I will say after the last time this came up, you pretty much talked me into your position. I just would love to hear from Mueller first. If for any reason the process starts and Mueller comes out and says that Barr was right, it isn't doing the right thing as much as committing ritual seppuku.

I'd like to get a bead on how strong these principles are. Would you vote to move forward with impeachment proceedings if you knew that with starting them that the Senate would acquit and that they GUARANTEED four more years of President Trump via reelection? There's no way to really know that, of course, but I'd be interested in understanding the depth of those principles.

 

[iubud]

The reapted hearings aren't making a dent in the psyche of the American public. It's now a political question for the 2020 election. Elect a Democratic President and Trump will face justice.

Time to start the business of legislating. It's time to force Republicans to take tough votes in the Senate. The Mueller Theatre is now a distraction.

Time to make both sides make tough votes. Infrastructure has been agreed to in principal . The amount and funding is where they differ. Meet somewhere in the middle and get something done.

First term Congress people are going to have little to run on in 2020. Congress seems determined to not give Trump any victories. Trump is frustrated. We will see in November 2020 how independents .view the stand off. Impeachment is a win for Trump. It won't happen and will be seen as a waste of time. I would focus on the 2020 election. Beat Trump that way if you can and save us the aggravation.

 

[toastedbread]

We're going to disagree. I disagree that they can't do more than one thing at a time. And I want them to do the right thing and you want them to do what they need to do to win an election even if it isn't the right thing.

If you consider this to be "just another election", then I question your judgement.

Also, it's not entirely clear that starting impeachment proceedings is the "right thing".

 

[Cortez88]

1. We know exactly what the GOP would do. Democrats need to start playing to win and not to not offend. The GOP paid no price for Benghazi and actually benefitted by tarnishing Clinton.

2. The Senate won’t do anything argument is bunk. In that case, why does the House pass any legislation. McConnell isn’t letting anything through.

I’m not sure what the Democrats are doing, but it looks like they are floundering from where I’m sitting.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I will say after the last time this came up, you pretty much talked me into your position. I just would love to hear from Mueller first. If for any reason the process starts and Mueller comes out and says that Barr was right, it isn't doing the right thing as much as committing ritual seppuku.

We've heard from Mueller. What more do you want to know from him? Absolutely no useful public purpose can be served by a public cross examination of Mueller--except to provide emotional support to the many democrats who were looking forward to indictments of Trump, his family, and friends and were disappointed. Legislative bodies inquiring into the mental processes of prosecutors for political purposes has separation of powers problems. Congress is not a criminal justice agency.

If the Democrats want to pursue this, then form an impeachment committee, hold hearings, and get on with it. Now all the Dems are doing is providing themselves an emotional release and trying to keep this alive during the next campaign season. For now, we have public legislative business that needs be done. Instead of that, the house Dems are wasting time with tax returns, holding strategy sessions about investigations, and RESIST!

 

[zeke4ahs]

The reapted hearings aren't making a dent in the psyche of the American public. It's now a political question for the 2020 election. Elect a Democratic President and Trump will face justice.

Time to start the business of legislating. It's time to force Republicans to take tough votes in the Senate. The Mueller Theatre is now a distraction.

Time to make both sides make tough votes. Infrastructure has been agreed to in principal . The amount and funding is where they differ. Meet somewhere in the middle and get something done.

First term Congress people are going to have little to run on in 2020. Congress seems determined to not give Trump any victories. Trump is frustrated. We will see in November 2020 how independents .view the stand off. Impeachment is a win for Trump. It won't happen and will be seen as a waste of time. I would focus on the 2020 election. Beat Trump that way if you can and save us the aggravation.

Why didn’t it hurt the GOP when they knew they didn’t have the votes, yet wasted time on Clinton’s sex life?

 

[zeke4ahs]

We're going to disagree. I disagree that they can't do more than one thing at a time. And I want them to do the right thing and you want them to do what they need to do to win an election even if it isn't the right thing.

If you consider this to be "just another election", then I question your judgement.

Also, it's not entirely clear that starting impeachment proceedings is the "right thing".

It’s not? What else exactly do you need?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I'd like to get a bead on how strong these principles are. Would you vote to move forward with impeachment proceedings if you knew that with starting them that the Senate would acquit and that they GUARANTEED four more years of President Trump via reelection? There's no way to really know that, of course, but I'd be interested in understanding the depth of those principles.

To quote the great Groucho, "Those are my principles and if you don't like them, I have others". No, if we had a magic 8 ball and it said that impeachment hearings would guarantee 4 more years of Trump, I would not support them.

 

[toastedbread]

To quote the great Groucho, "Those are my principles and if you don't like them, I have others". No, if we had a magic 8 ball and it said that impeachment hearings would guarantee 4 more years of Trump, I would not support them.

How about this magic 8 ball...

if impeachment proceedings begin, they neither hurt or help electoral chances. However, if the same amount of time/energy is focused on other legislative business, the odds of electoral success are increased by an unknown %. What say your principles then?

Or say the odds of Democratic victory increased from 50% to 60%. Do you stick to your principles?

 

[toastedbread]

I disagree that they can't do more than one thing at a time.

Fyi, 4 months in control of the house and not a single vote on a bill to protect dreamers...

 

[Marvin the Martian]

How about this magic 8 ball...

if impeachment proceedings begin, they neither hurt or help electoral chances. However, if the same amount of time/energy is focused on other legislative business, the odds of electoral success are increased by an unknown %. What say your principles then?

Or say the odds of Democratic victory increased from 50% to 60%. Do you stick to your principles?

I don't know that is any more valid in theory. But no, if it makes a significant change in Trump's election I would not. The reason I don't think it is valid is that the Democrats should be doing these things anyway and just because a committee is tied up in knots (judiciary) does not mean the rest of the House is. The other committees can vote on infrastructure, ADA shoring up, green initiatives, and whatever else. And if the House needs to, it can stop voting on dedicating days to special causes and what not. So we do without "National Anti-Counterfeiting Consumer Education and Awareness Month", I can live without it so that legislation can get passed.