Thoughts on recruiting....
- Thread starter bsmitty08
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I may be wrong based on your stats. And if you feel the stats are reliable then I can see why you feel as you do.
But I still think he exceeded the expectations that people had for him when he came to IU. And to me, that is part of being an undiscovered gem.
I think he did improve on defense during the season and from what I have read about PER is that it is heavily based on offensive performance and is not nearly effective in valuing defensive performance.
And, I am not saying that PER is an opinion, but the analysis of the stats that PER generates is opinion based. For instance, in the NBA Bruce Bowen routinely had a PER in single digits when the league average was 15. Based on PER one would conclude he was a below average NBA player who would come off the bench.
By the way, I did not say NZ played defense like Bruce Bowen. Very few NBA player have ever played defense as well as BB. I just brought him up to show a weakness in only using PER to gauge a player's value.
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Agree 100%. He could not stay in front of his man but I would also then yell at the tv for someone to rotate and help him out. The year before Hanner was really bad at that, TB started out bad but got better (not great). At the beginning of last year some of the games featured layup drills, right down the paint, which should never, ever be tolerated.
Everything points to him being a catch and shoot role player. And, being fairly effective in that role. His production dropped because he was put into a major role where he played many minutes with no effect at all. Mainly because the only way he affects a game is with his shooting.
Seriously?? Look at posts after multiple games and you will read tons of complaints about Crean's offense.
Complaints about his offense come from when we are not knocking down the 3 we struggled to score. This offense relies on 3pt shooting.
I get that and, again, I am an old- school motion guy (I get excited by back screens
).Just saying that I read a lot of negatives throughout the year (s) but somehow Kenpom regularly has us in the top 10 in the country.
I get that and, again, I am an old- school motion guy (I get excited by back screens
Just saying that I read a lot of negatives throughout the year (s) but somehow Kenpom regularly has us in the top 10 in the country.
fwiw - you really can't complain about his offense efficiency. It's there. BUT, I will anyways...
The emphasis on creating TOs over not turning it over and emphasizing offensive rebounds create higher offensive efficiency while in trade gives lower defensive efficiency.
Emphasizing (relying on) either is seen by many coaches as fool's gold, (especially steals vs TO's) and the analytics bear that out. Many good defensive teams emphasize ball control (not turning the ball over) over creating TO's. There's a reason why. It's safer and more consistent and not as reliant on the opponent.
What I'm trying to say is Crean's philosophy is trading defensive efficiency for offensive. It's inherently built into the way he treats TO and steals, and rebounding and 3pt shots.
.
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Great points.
My stats I had about a month ago bore that out. UNC and UK play a similar style, only better.
Great Post! I have attempted to point out exactly these same concerns several times over the years, but as usual you conveyed the message in a much more concise and literate way. My issue with Crean has always been a philosophical one. I even contend that he is a very good at coaching and teaching his philosophy, it's just not the way that I would prefer to see IU play. I hope it works as much as anyone, but I will be surprised if it does vis-a-vis a national title.
Same here.
There are a lot of ways to play basketball EFFECTIVELY. Crean wants to play fast, but doesn't 1) recruit well enough or 2) develop the players he does recruit to a level of personnel needed to run that style.
Even IF he somehow gets to a FF, he'll never have CONSISTENT success. IU basketball should not settle for anything less.
Damn, this may be a first but I agree with your point about the defense being improved by being simplified.
As for improving Blackmon's defense, I recall what Crean did with Hulls -- played a zone and hid Hulls off to the side and back in the far corner of the zone. He might do the same thing with Blackmon.
When I think of recruiting failures and discipline problems over the past five years, I observe that many if not most of those players went to high school in Indiana. Certainly, the most egregious conduct involved players from Indiana (I won't name them).
On the other hand, recruiting solely within Indiana would mean that the following favorites would never have been IU players:
Thomas
May
Buckner
Guyton
Oladipo
Sheehey
Moye
Watford
Garrett
Smart
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
I too would like to see Indiana kids come to IU and do well, but it's more important to me that IU do well with likeable, respectable players from, well, wherever their parents raised them.
Neither were Knight, Davis, Sampson, or Dakich according to your standards.
Indiana is going to be ranked somewhere between 8th and 14th when the season starts this coming fall. Who should they go get that will do better than that?
So what are you suppose to do, fire a coach after a couple of years until you get it right. Another way is to keep some continuity with a coach and try to build something instead of just firing coaches after two or 3 years.
He's had 8 FREAKING YEARS Scott!! EIGHT!!!
He can't recruit Indiana well.
He employs a system that is not conducive to long-term success because he cannot recruit the level of player needed to be successful with that system OR develop lesser raw talent to achieve the same result.
No one HAS EVER SAID fire anyone after 2-3 years. But 8? At some point, you cut bait . . .
They are going to be ranked like 8th starting next year. Name names that will be better. I appreciate that you want improvement, but give us names.
Thanks.
Huh?? According to "my standards"?
Didn't YOU bring up "since 1993-ish"?
Knight may have struggled near the end, but he still got recruits from the state. Indiana near the end of his IU tenure didn't have near the amount of talent he had available before.
Davis never should have been hired. He was treated poorly by some because of his race (which was uncalled for), but he was a fish out of water at a place like IU.
Sampson could coach. It's the other parts where he had issues.
Crean has had 8 years to show what he can do. You are what you are. I guess I just expect for more than you.
I just think they are headed in the right direction. If you take the first two years out, he has had 6 years of legit players to play with. Also why not wait until the 2017 class has all been signed until we freak out about Indiana kids.
I was also just talking in general about IU coaches and not just Crean. It appears that some of you would fire a coach after two or three years if they have not produced up to your standards.
They were ranked 8th in a "way-too-early" poll on ESPN.com.
But they have big-time questions at PG, and have a coach that runs an offense geared more toward off-the-dribble offensive execution than player movement/screening and feeding the post. And the strength of this upcoming team will be it's frontcourt, not it's guards.
I hope I'm wrong. But with the personnel we have, we ought to be looking to pound the ball inside - and looking at our 8 years with Crean (and reviewing his Marquette days) can you really see him running an offense that will do that? I don't.
Just to point out ... had Knight recruited solely within Indiana, he would have had exactly zero national championships.
In the past, Indiana's high school programs were so superior that it may have made sense to focus on Indiana recruits. That's probably not the case now (if it ever were true). Good basketball is played everywhere now.
If he somehow lands both Wilkes and Scruggs, I'll change my opinion on the guy.
But from the people I know in AAU, I don't see that happening. Maybe Scruggs, but not both.
Mamba? Forget it.
Porter? Ditto.
Williams? Nope.
This is INDIANA. With the resources, fanbase and tradition this place has, there's NO REASON a coach shouldn't have solid footing with this state/region recruiting-wise. And Crean doesn't. That OUGHT to tell you something.
I'm not saying IU should take ONLY Indiana kids. Not at all.
But with the talent this state produces, just WHY wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?
Knight mainly recruited Indiana, Illinois, Ohio and some Michigan. If you look at Izzo's recruiting, it's very similar. Isn't it funny how Izzo has made MSU a consistent winner? I wonder why . . .
Lets look at RMK recruiting classes from 1994 until 2000 and tell me how he was till recruiting Indiana. In those classes there were 22 players and only 6 came from the state of Indiana and he went 3 straight years without anyone from the state 94-96.
1994- Hermon, Hodgson, Miller, Patterson, Reid
1995- Richardson
1996- Collier, Guyton, Jimenez, Lewis
1997- Haston, recker
1998- Fife, Hornsby, Odle
1999- Coverdale, leach, Newton
2000- Jefferies, Moye, Owens, Roberts
So you are seriously saying that Crean is not trying to recruit Indiana and not trying to take advantage of those players.
Scott, do you ever listen?
I've never said Crean doesn't try to recruit Indiana. I've said he's not effective doing it.
And much of that goes back to how he is viewed by the HS coaches in this state.
Why do you say that about Mamba because from what I heard from RabJohn made it sound like we were in pretty good shape with him.
How many were from Indiana, Illinois and Ohio?
And in 1994 and 1995, which players from Indiana should have Knight targeted instead of the ones you show?
You said he still recruited Indiana and you were shown that was not true then you come out with other excuses. Just like the 2016 class that was not very good so you have to look elsewhere and that is why it is good to have a wider recruiting base.
In a span from 1993-1998 (6 classes) the state of Indiana only produced 2 McDonald's AA's and IU landed both of them. Interestingly, the state of Indiana only produced 10 Top 75 rated players during those 6 classes.
Knight landed 2 of 10 Top 75 players from Indiana (1993-1998)
Crean landed 5 of 20 Top 75 players from Indiana (2011-2016)
*Edited to include Perea who RSCI has from Alabama
Knight landed 2 of 2 McD AA's from Indiana (1993-1998)
Crean landed 3 of 11 McD AA's from Indiana (2011-2016)
As can be seen, the state of Indiana was in a bit of a drought which corresponded with some down times for Knight. Down times for Knight were far better than down times for most.
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Notice also (from my above post) That Indiana has produced more McD AA's the past 6 classes than it produced Top 75 players from 1993-98 (6 classes).
Would you be happier if Indiana were ranked worse than 8th in the "way-to-early" poll?
I have big news for you, Coach Crean is there for as long as he wants to be and he is going to get paid a lot of money. The alumni, season ticket holders, AD, trustees, and president are all on his side. You might want to hop on the bandwagon or, in the alternative, go be for Purdue or Kentucky or some or some other team.
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