This election the Republicans were hacked

[Marvin the Martian]

The GOP House campaign was hacked back in April, it was kept secret to aid the investigation. No one is saying who is suspect at this time. IF it is the Russians we need to take some very strong steps, I mean VERY strong steps. I'm talking US deployment into Ukraine strong. Of course, that is IF we can trace it back to Russia.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

Hasn't Mattis already said the Russians targeted the 2018 election?

They're assholes, best thing we can do is invest heavily in cyber-security.

What would you have us do? Go to war? Group up Peter Pan, Count-Chocula.

 

[wiede]

Hasn't Mattis already said the Russians targeted the 2018 election?

They're assholes, best thing we can do is invest heavily in cyber-security.

What would you have us do? Go to war? Group up Peter Pan, Count-Chocula.

More Magnisky act style sanctions. Maybe even an expansion of them in some way.

Those have proven to be incredibly effective at punishing Russia. It definitely lengthened their recession. And hurts the oligarchs ability to park their stolen $$$ outside of Russia- which is their ultimate goal. Sure, they’ll make noise about restoring Russia to greatness- but they’re really just a band of really tight thieves.

It’s pretty simple. Figure out what harms Putin and his oligarch buddies. Then do something to harm them- financially. Clearly, ridding itself of the Magnisky act sanctions was Putin’s end game in trying to co-opt/work with the Trump campaign. And why he preferred Trump- although he may have preferred just about anyone over Clinton.

It’s a shame that we’re fighting with our western allies instead of picking fights with them. Because if we stood together with them, we could unleash some hellacious sanctions. It still might be possible, but I don’t ever see DJT doing anything like that. You already know my opinion on why.

It’s odd that Russia has become more and more aggressive, and there hasn’t been a coordinated western response. Usually we would take the lead on something like this. They literally attacked the integrity of our elections- the foundation of our democracy. If that doesn’t warrant an extraordinary response, I don’t know what will.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Hasn't Mattis already said the Russians targeted the 2018 election?

They're assholes, best thing we can do is invest heavily in cyber-security.

What would you have us do? Go to war? Group up Peter Pan, Count-Chocula.

Cyber-security is never enough. If you read the message, the GOP had invested in cybersecurity firms. If something can physically be accessed, it will be hacked. The trick usually is to just make your site a little harder than other sites.

But that does not work against state actors.

Obviously we do not want at all war against Russia. We just have to find a way of making the cost of business too high for them to continue. I theorize American troops in Kiev would do it. But there are other options. We could invest so heavily in green technology and totally collapse oil and gas prices which would severely damage their economy. 36% of Russia's federal budget comes from petroleum. No petroleum exports, one toothless bear. But that option is not considered.

So I do not have a good answer but I know holding press conferences stating we are deeply concerned will not stop these incursions. I hope someone in State or the 5 sided building has ideas on how to proceed.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

More Magnisky act style sanctions. Maybe even an expansion of them in some way.

Those have proven to be incredibly effective at punishing Russia. It definitely lengthened their recession. And hurts the oligarchs ability to park their stolen $$$ outside of Russia- which is their ultimate goal. Sure, they’ll make noise about restoring Russia to greatness- but they’re really just a band of really tight thieves.

It’s pretty simple. Figure out what harms Putin and his oligarch buddies. Then do something to harm them- financially. Clearly, ridding itself of the Magnisky act sanctions was Putin’s end game in trying to co-opt/work with the Trump campaign. And why he preferred Trump- although he may have preferred just about anyone over Clinton.

It’s a shame that we’re fighting with our western allies instead of picking fights with them. Because if we stood together with them, we could unleash some hellacious sanctions. It still might be possible, but I don’t ever see DJT doing anything like that. You already know my opinion on why.

It’s odd that Russia has become more and more aggressive, and there hasn’t been a coordinated western response. Usually we would take the lead on something like this. They literally attacked the integrity of our elections- the foundation of our democracy. If that doesn’t warrant an extraordinary response, I don’t know what will.

Brookings has an interesting article chastising the West's response to the naval invident. IF Russia hacked, it fits into that narrative. If they did not, of course whomever did needs punished. Maybe major hacks back would do it. The cost of this business needs elevated.

 

[wiede]

Brookings has an interesting article chastising the West's response to the naval invident. IF Russia hacked, it fits into that narrative. If they did not, of course whomever did needs punished. Maybe major hacks back would do it. The cost of this business needs elevated.

Russia has been escalating their bad behavior for a while now. See all the poisonings in Great Britain (many deemed to be natural causes deaths that probably weren’t), their attacks on Monenego, the downing of a commercial jet(!) and their outright brilliance at information warfare- you may hate it, buts it’s been incredibly effective at times.

I’d argue that since at least W, our predients haven’t responded to their rising aggression with enough force (not military force). They truly only respond to force, and will push the boundaries as long as you let them. They’re classic bullies, in other words. You gotta punch them in the mouth to make them back down.

Putin’s goal isn’t to raise Russia up- he knows they aren’t strong enough anymore for that. Rather, his goal is to drag the west down, and sew chaos in western nations/values.

Great article here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-plot-against-the-west-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-europe/

And it seems to be working fairly well. Unfortunately.

And, I agree about the green every idea. If we had invested more $$$ into R & D, we’d be a lot farther along. And we could largely extricate ourselves from the permanent cesspool of middle eastern existence.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Brookings has an interesting article chastising the West's response to the naval invident. IF Russia hacked, it fits into that narrative. If they did not, of course whomever did needs punished. Maybe major hacks back would do it. The cost of this business needs elevated.

I think the NSA constantly hacks the hell out of the whole world all the time. Except it isn't called hacking, it's called surveillance. If you are constantly listening to and watching comms, you don't need to do a special "hack". In my view, "hacking" is yesterday's news for the NSA. The NSA breaks almost any encryption and it stores massive amounts of data for reference and analysis.

Remember the ECHELON surveillance and spy program? That was 40 years ago.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think the NSA constantly hacks the hell out of the whole world all the time. Except it isn't called hacking, it's called surveillance. If you are constantly listening to and watching comms, you don't need to do a special "hack". In my view, "hacking" is yesterday's news for the NSA. The NSA breaks almost any encryption and it stores massive amounts of data for reference and analysis.

Remember the ECHELON surveillance and spy program? That was 40 years ago.

What’s your point?

 

[CO. Hoosier]

What’s your point?

The point is that no special electronic retaliation for Russian hacking is necessary, unless we want to make a show of what we do. I don’t think that would be a good idea.

 

[toastedbread]

The GOP House campaign was hacked back in April, it was kept secret to aid the investigation. No one is saying who is suspect at this time. IF it is the Russians we need to take some very strong steps, I mean VERY strong steps. I'm talking US deployment into Ukraine strong. Of course, that is IF we can trace it back to Russia.

Ukraine???!!! HELL NO. NATO members states + a few treaty states is the red line.

More Magnisky act style sanctions. Maybe even an expansion of them in some way.

Those have proven to be incredibly effective at punishing Russia. It definitely lengthened their recession. And hurts the oligarchs ability to park their stolen $$$ outside of Russia- which is their ultimate goal. Sure, they’ll make noise about restoring Russia to greatness- but they’re really just a band of really tight thieves.

It’s pretty simple. Figure out what harms Putin and his oligarch buddies. Then do something to harm them- financially. Clearly, ridding itself of the Magnisky act sanctions was Putin’s end game in trying to co-opt/work with the Trump campaign. And why he preferred Trump- although he may have preferred just about anyone over Clinton.

It’s a shame that we’re fighting with our western allies instead of picking fights with them. Because if we stood together with them, we could unleash some hellacious sanctions. It still might be possible, but I don’t ever see DJT doing anything like that. You already know my opinion on why.

It’s odd that Russia has become more and more aggressive, and there hasn’t been a coordinated western response. Usually we would take the lead on something like this. They literally attacked the integrity of our elections- the foundation of our democracy. If that doesn’t warrant an extraordinary response, I don’t know what will.

The easiest solution is to stop issuing them visas, kick them and their families out, confiscate all of their assets, etc. The U.S. and UK should have done this years ago. I've posted about birthright citizenship before and why it's an absolute disaster. It's a major national security threat. You have children of Russian oligarchs who are American citizens in name only.

Cyber-security is never enough. If you read the message, the GOP had invested in cybersecurity firms. If something can physically be accessed, it will be hacked. The trick usually is to just make your site a little harder than other sites.

But that does not work against state actors.

Obviously we do not want at all war against Russia. We just have to find a way of making the cost of business too high for them to continue. I theorize American troops in Kiev would do it. But there are other options. We could invest so heavily in green technology and totally collapse oil and gas prices which would severely damage their economy. 36% of Russia's federal budget comes from petroleum. No petroleum exports, one toothless bear. But that option is not considered.

So I do not have a good answer but I know holding press conferences stating we are deeply concerned will not stop these incursions. I hope someone in State or the 5 sided building has ideas on how to proceed.

Investing in green tech is too long term. Start with what I've mentioned to Wiede above. Nothing will get Russians squealing faster then when they can't vacation in Miami Beach.

I believed that their actions during the 2016 election were an act of war. I don't know why their hacking of the GOP is of increased seriousness. I significantly criticized Obama for not declaring a state of emergency and martial law. I believe that we will eventually find out that our current President is an enemy combatant. If Obama had even 1/10 of that knowledge, candidate Trump should have been held in detention.

Wrt to cyber security... the sad truth is that it's much cheaper and easier to be an aggressor in cyber. You only need to find one weakness in an entire system.

Brookings has an interesting article chastising the West's response to the naval invident. IF Russia hacked, it fits into that narrative. If they did not, of course whomever did needs punished. Maybe major hacks back would do it. The cost of this business needs elevated.

We are in their systems and they are in ours. That's a deterrent unto itself. The difference is that the Russians don't play by the rules of the road. They are a rogue state.

Russia has been escalating their bad behavior for a while now. See all the poisonings in Great Britain (many deemed to be natural causes deaths that probably weren’t), their attacks on Monenego, the downing of a commercial jet(!) and their outright brilliance at information warfare- you may hate it, buts it’s been incredibly effective at times.

I’d argue that since at least W, our predients haven’t responded to their rising aggression with enough force (not military force). They truly only respond to force, and will push the boundaries as long as you let them. They’re classic bullies, in other words. You gotta punch them in the mouth to make them back down.

Putin’s goal isn’t to raise Russia up- he knows they aren’t strong enough anymore for that. Rather, his goal is to drag the west down, and sew chaos in western nations/values.

Great article here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-plot-against-the-west-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-europe/

And it seems to be working fairly well. Unfortunately.

And, I agree about the green every idea. If we had invested more $$$ into R & D, we’d be a lot farther along. And we could largely extricate ourselves from the permanent cesspool of middle eastern existence.

The problem with responding with force is that it can escalate out of control. We are talking about two nuclear states. One is rogue.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Ukraine???!!! HELL NO. NATO members states + a few treaty states is the red line.



The easiest solution is to stop issuing them visas, kick them and their families out, confiscate all of their assets, etc. The U.S. and UK should have done this years ago. I've posted about birthright citizenship before and why it's an absolute disaster. It's a major national security threat. You have children of Russian oligarchs who are American citizens in name only.



Investing in green tech is too long term. Start with what I've mentioned to Wiede above. Nothing will get Russians squealing faster then when they can't vacation in Miami Beach.

I believed that their actions during the 2016 election were an act of war. I don't know why their hacking of the GOP is of increased seriousness. I significantly criticized Obama for not declaring a state of emergency and martial law. I believe that we will eventually find out that our current President is an enemy combatant. If Obama had even 1/10 of that knowledge, candidate Trump should have been held in detention.

Wrt to cyber security... the sad truth is that it's much cheaper and easier to be an aggressor in cyber. You only need to find one weakness in an entire system.



We are in their systems and they are in ours. That's a deterrent unto itself. The difference is that the Russians don't play by the rules of the road. They are a rogue state.



The problem with responding with force is that it can escalate out of control. We are talking about two nuclear states. One is rogue.

There are elite playgrounds for the rich in a lot of places, what makes Miami so much more important to them?

Obviously I am not wanting war. But I think Putin is still old school and wants to recreate the Russian empire. Ukraine is critical for that dream. If his actions make that harder to get, I think he will change.

Obviously turning oligarchs against him kills his financing. I just can't believe Miami is what oligarchs value most.

 

[toastedbread]

There are elite playgrounds for the rich in a lot of places, what makes Miami so much more important to them?

Obviously I am not wanting war. But I think Putin is still old school and wants to recreate the Russian empire. Ukraine is critical for that dream. If his actions make that harder to get, I think he will change.

Obviously turning oligarchs against him kills his financing. I just can't believe Miami is what oligarchs value most.

lol. I was making a larger point. You go after them in London, NY, Marseilles, Miami, wherever they are. Anyone who is in an aligned state that is a Russian national with a penny of corrupt money to their name has their families visas revoked and assets confiscated in that state. The Brits refuse to do it. Why? Russians are funding their political campaigns. Russians are bribing them. God knows what else.

I'm not willing to make a major stand over Ukraine. I would have preferred a tougher stand over our own elections!!

 

[Bill4411]

Russia is a disaster and everything they ever touch seems to be forever ruined, Trump trying to be a friend to them is just naïve at best.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

lol. I was making a larger point. You go after them in London, NY, Marseilles, Miami, wherever they are. Anyone who is in an aligned state that is a Russian national with a penny of corrupt money to their name has their families visas revoked and assets confiscated in that state. The Brits refuse to do it. Why? Russians are funding their political campaigns. Russians are bribing them. God knows what else.

I'm not willing to make a major stand over Ukraine. I would have preferred a tougher stand over our own elections!!

My Ukraine stand is not for the Ukraine. Vlad wants school children 100 years from now to sing about Vlad the Great taking back Ukraine. If we want Vlad's attention stopping that dream does that. Your plan strikes at his allies, my plan strikes at him.

 

[toastedbread]

My Ukraine stand is not for the Ukraine. Vlad wants school children 100 years from now to sing about Vlad the Great taking back Ukraine. If we want Vlad's attention stopping that dream does that. Your plan strikes at his allies, my plan strikes at him.

I'm absolutely not-on-board with US troops stationed in Ukraine on war posture. No ifs, ands, or buts about that.

Most importantly, Ukrainian navy violated Russia's territorial waters. Russia responded. We can argue that the force was disproportionate, but the fault lies solely with Ukraine.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I'm absolutely not-on-board with US troops stationed in Ukraine on war posture. No ifs, ands, or buts about that.

Most importantly, Ukrainian navy violated Russia's territorial waters. Russia responded. We can argue that the force was disproportionate, but the fault lies solely with Ukraine.

There is no possible way that Ukraine violated Russian waters. If those waters belong to anyone they belong to Crimea. The UN, NATO, and almost everyone else have not signed off on Crimea being Russian. Gew countries accept Crimea as Russian. It is pretty much North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela and Sudan.

Now Russia claims it, to be sure. But as far as international law goes that water is not Russian.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Most importantly, Ukrainian navy violated Russia's territorial waters. Russia responded.

LOL. You can't possibly be serious. I thought you were informed.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

There is no possible way that Ukraine violated Russian waters. If those waters belong to anyone they belong to Crimea. The UN, NATO, and almost everyone else have not signed off on Crimea being Russian. Gew countries accept Crimea as Russian. It is pretty much North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela and Sudan.

Now Russia claims it, to be sure. But as far as international law goes that water is not Russian.

Not only that, but Russia and Ukraine have a treaty in force right now that guarantees equal and free access to both for all those waters, anyway.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Not only that, but Russia and Ukraine have a treaty in force right now that guarantees equal and free access to both for all those waters, anyway.

In addition, even if that is Russian water and even if that treaty did not exist, they still violated international law. Russia's actions were wronger than wrong.

I do not want to risk war over this, though I do want us to take some action due to our very long support of freedom of the seas. And if we don't want American troops in Kiev, let's put them in Riga (IF Russia hacked again). Either way it slams the door on Vlad's USSR 2.1.

I don't get CO's point, normally if we catch Russians spying we arrest them. Since I am sure they will not send them over, his attitude lets Russia attack our election process with zero repercussions. I would love to see his reaction in 2020. H Clinton has been elected by the Electoral College and 5 minutes later the Russians demonstrate they hacked the vote. There is no constitutional remedy for that scenario. I am sure he will chuckle and say, "good one Vlad, well played".

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I'm absolutely not-on-board with US troops stationed in Ukraine on war posture. No ifs, ands, or buts about that.

Most importantly, Ukrainian navy violated Russia's territorial waters. Russia responded. We can argue that the force was disproportionate, but the fault lies solely with Ukraine.

You are incorrect on the navy incident. Russia was absolutely wrong and violated international maritime law.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I thought you were informed.

What gave you that idea?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You are incorrect on the navy incident. Russia was absolutely wrong and violated international maritime law.

In addition to this incident, and the others involving Ukraine, Russia has been buzzing our ships and aircraft provocatively, and they have been jamming GPS signals (it is happening more than just in that exercise). Putin clearly is trying to see just how far he can push the west. At some point the west has to push back. More sanctions, rearranging of troops, something.

 

[toastedbread]

There is no possible way that Ukraine violated Russian waters. If those waters belong to anyone they belong to Crimea. The UN, NATO, and almost everyone else have not signed off on Crimea being Russian. Gew countries accept Crimea as Russian. It is pretty much North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela and Sudan.

Now Russia claims it, to be sure. But as far as international law goes that water is not Russian.

Suppose that PRC troops land in Taipei tomorrow morning. Your argument is that there is nothing to even discuss because Taiwan is not recognized by the international community? Effectively, PRC troops are landing on PRC soil.

Fyi, there was a referendum in 2014 conducted by Crimea in which 95%+ of the population voted to join the Russian federation.

Back to an earlier part of this thread, Putin's daughter is married to a Dutch national and the family posseses significant assets within the EU. Clearly that is a direct impact on Putin.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Suppose that PRC troops land in Taipei tomorrow morning. Your argument is that there is nothing to even discuss because Taiwan is not recognized by the international community? Effectively, PRC troops are landing on PRC soil.

Fyi, there was a referendum in 2014 conducted by Crimea in which 95%+ of the population voted to join the Russian federation.

Back to an earlier part of this thread, Putin's daughter is married to a Dutch national and the family posseses significant assets within the EU. Clearly that is a direct impact on Putin.

Actually, you make my point. I would not allow China to interdict US vessels going to Taiwan as that is a violation of our freedom of the seas. And note, China does not do that. But that said, I favor the US cutting ties with Taiwan. We made a mistake 70 years ago and just keep continuing it. So no, I do not favor an invasion but I certainly would not engage in a war over the island. If China were to invade Taiwan we would have to engage in normal sanctions. But eventually China is entitled to her sovereign territory. Suppose the Confederate government fled to the NC Outer banks after the war and declared it a country, we wouldn't have accepted Britain jumping in to defend that new nation. Taiwan is Chinese.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

In addition to this incident, and the others involving Ukraine, Russia has been buzzing our ships and aircraft provocatively, and they have been jamming GPS signals (it is happening more than just in that exercise). Putin clearly is trying to see just how far he can push the west. At some point the west has to push back. More sanctions, rearranging of troops, something.

This used to happen pretty often during the Soviet Union days. Not the GPS signals, because we didn't have GPS, but the fly overs and trying to screw with our communications were not uncommon. I saw a lot of this on my first deployment in 1988.

 

[wiede]

Ukraine???!!! HELL NO. NATO members states + a few treaty states is the red line.



The easiest solution is to stop issuing them visas, kick them and their families out, confiscate all of their assets, etc. The U.S. and UK should have done this years ago. I've posted about birthright citizenship before and why it's an absolute disaster. It's a major national security threat. You have children of Russian oligarchs who are American citizens in name only.



Investing in green tech is too long term. Start with what I've mentioned to Wiede above. Nothing will get Russians squealing faster then when they can't vacation in Miami Beach.

I believed that their actions during the 2016 election were an act of war. I don't know why their hacking of the GOP is of increased seriousness. I significantly criticized Obama for not declaring a state of emergency and martial law. I believe that we will eventually find out that our current President is an enemy combatant. If Obama had even 1/10 of that knowledge, candidate Trump should have been held in detention.

Wrt to cyber security... the sad truth is that it's much cheaper and easier to be an aggressor in cyber. You only need to find one weakness in an entire system.



We are in their systems and they are in ours. That's a deterrent unto itself. The difference is that the Russians don't play by the rules of the road. They are a rogue state.



The problem with responding with force is that it can escalate out of control. We are talking about two nuclear states. One is rogue.

I’d never advocate for responding with physical force. There’s plenty we can do elsewhere to make life uncomfortable for them.

I like your visa idea.

I also like hacking some of their stuff, and releasing some really personally embarrassing stuff of Putin/important oligarchs/state leaders.

Or, even better, releasing details of the theft of the Russian people’s money. Through anonymous sources of course. Beat them at their own damn sick, twisted game.

Although that may be pushing it, because Putin could view it as an act of overt war. His livelihood depends on propoganda & silencing people. And it’s pretty clear he’ll do anything to stay in power- that’s how authoritarians behave. And anything that he views as a serious threat could be met with physical force.

And, to your point, during all of this (outside of maybe a few more extreme actions), not a single shot would be fired.

If they aren’t going to play by the rules, why should we? Especially in the cyber arena. What they’ve done in hacking is really basic stuff. They’ve just had a solid plan, and have been able to fine tune it over several years.

Putin is betting on the west not doing a damn thing. Because so far, we really haven’t done anything, outside of raising our collective fists and yelling at the sky. He’ll take whatever you give him, and like a little kid, he’s going to continue to push the boundaries until you shut him kid down, by punishing him.

It’s time for some timeouts for mother Russia, in other words. He’s out of control, and doing nothing isn’t working.

You know, the current administration could really use the expertise of folks like Michael McFaul, who know Russia really well. Instead, the current administration is trying to do to him and others what Putin does to his domestic (Russian) enemies.

Trump had been groomed by Russia for years- they targeted him as an important figure a long time ago. They knew his pyschological profile well. Basically they learned to flatter him, put beautiful women around him, offer him business opportunities, help him in nefarious ways- because he’ll take the help.

But, Trump won’t be around forever.

I have a feeling once the true extent of their interference efforts are known, they’ll wish they never did what they did. That’s why the indictments of the 13 Russians are important. It’s important groundwork for what’s to come in the probe. The mandate is to investigate the extent of their interference.

Russia is kind of like the dog that caught the car right now. They got what they wanted, but they aren’t ready for the owner that steps out of the car with a gun. The gun in this situation is our resolve to punish them for what they’ve done. And I tend to think that it’ll be pretty severe.

 

[Bobbyforever]

Hasn't Mattis already said the Russians targeted the 2018 election?

They're assholes, best thing we can do is invest heavily in cyber-security.

What would you have us do? Go to war? Group up Peter Pan, Count-Chocula.

A couple of comments: Pres Obama said we have more cyber capability than anyone. If that is true we should retaliate. If we don’t, and I think that is the case, then we should be building up our capability. I have a friend who’s son is in the military and is getting trained for a position in a cyber group so I think we are gearing up.

 

[toastedbread]

I’d never advocate for responding with physical force. There’s plenty we can do elsewhere to make life uncomfortable for them.

I like your visa idea.

I also like hacking some of their stuff, and releasing some really personally embarrassing stuff of Putin/important oligarchs/state leaders.

Or, even better, releasing details of the theft of the Russian people’s money. Through anonymous sources of course. Beat them at their own damn sick, twisted game.

Although that may be pushing it, because Putin could view it as an act of overt war. His livelihood depends on propoganda & silencing people. And it’s pretty clear he’ll do anything to stay in power- that’s how authoritarians behave. And anything that he views as a serious threat could be met with physical force.

And, to your point, during all of this (outside of maybe a few more extreme actions), not a single shot would be fired.

If they aren’t going to play by the rules, why should we? Especially in the cyber arena. What they’ve done in hacking is really basic stuff. They’ve just had a solid plan, and have been able to fine tune it over several years.

Putin is betting on the west not doing a damn thing. Because so far, we really haven’t done anything, outside of raising our collective fists and yelling at the sky. He’ll take whatever you give him, and like a little kid, he’s going to continue to push the boundaries until you shut him kid down, by punishing him.

It’s time for some timeouts for mother Russia, in other words. He’s out of control, and doing nothing isn’t working.

You know, the current administration could really use the expertise of folks like Michael McFaul, who know Russia really well. Instead, the current administration is trying to do to him and others what Putin does to his domestic (Russian) enemies.

Trump had been groomed by Russia for years- they targeted him as an important figure a long time ago. They knew his pyschological profile well. Basically they learned to flatter him, put beautiful women around him, offer him business opportunities, help him in nefarious ways- because he’ll take the help.

But, Trump won’t be around forever.

I have a feeling once the true extent of their interference efforts are known, they’ll wish they never did what they did. That’s why the indictments of the 13 Russians are important. It’s important groundwork for what’s to come in the probe. The mandate is to investigate the extent of their interference.

Russia is kind of like the dog that caught the car right now. They got what they wanted, but they aren’t ready for the owner that steps out of the car with a gun. The gun in this situation is our resolve to punish them for what they’ve done. And I tend to think that it’ll be pretty severe.

The visa part is almost secondary to the $$$ part.

Not a big fan of McFaul.

I dont see much of a resolve to punish them, nor do I think they are concerned by the investigation. They've used nuclear weapons on British soil without a whimper in return.

As for hacking and releasing damaging information... We don't need even need to hack. We can create our own invented negative narratives. It's called information warfare and propaganda.

As for a cyber response, we could surely cause serious damage to their electrical grid, at least temporarily. For whatever reason, Obama was hesitant to use those tools. I presume he was concerned about the risk of retaliation. There would be no winners.

 

[toastedbread]

A couple of comments: Pres Obama said we have more cyber capability than anyone. If that is true we should retaliate. If we don’t, and I think that is the case, then we should be building up our capability. I have a friend who’s son is in the military and is getting trained for a position in a cyber group so I think we are gearing up.

We are the best. That's not even a question.

 

[toastedbread]

Actually, you make my point. I would not allow China to interdict US vessels going to Taiwan as that is a violation of our freedom of the seas. And note, China does not do that. But that said, I favor the US cutting ties with Taiwan. We made a mistake 70 years ago and just keep continuing it. So no, I do not favor an invasion but I certainly would not engage in a war over the island. If China were to invade Taiwan we would have to engage in normal sanctions. But eventually China is entitled to her sovereign territory. Suppose the Confederate government fled to the NC Outer banks after the war and declared it a country, we wouldn't have accepted Britain jumping in to defend that new nation. Taiwan is Chinese.

And how do you presume the Chinese would respond if the US was preparing their artillery to fire? Stand there and watch? That's what we are talking about in this case. The Ukranian forces were reportedly prepared to open fire on Russian naval vessels.

Wrt Taiwan, you think the will of the people is meaningless? E.g. 100% of the locals in Formosa are against PRC rule.

 

[Bobbyforever]

And how do you presume the Chinese would respond if the US was preparing their artillery to fire? Stand there and watch? That's what we are talking about in this case. The Ukranian forces were reportedly prepared to open fire on Russian naval vessels.

Wrt Taiwan, you think the will of the people is meaningless? E.g. 100% of the locals in Formosa are against PRC rule.

We are the best. That's not even a question.

Then why are we doing something instead of leaving these countries continue hitting us

 

[Bobbyforever]

Actually, you make my point. I would not allow China to interdict US vessels going to Taiwan as that is a violation of our freedom of the seas. And note, China does not do that. But that said, I favor the US cutting ties with Taiwan. We made a mistake 70 years ago and just keep continuing it. So no, I do not favor an invasion but I certainly would not engage in a war over the island. If China were to invade Taiwan we would have to engage in normal sanctions. But eventually China is entitled to her sovereign territory. Suppose the Confederate government fled to the NC Outer banks after the war and declared it a country, we wouldn't have accepted Britain jumping in to defend that new nation. Taiwan is Chinese.

Your example of the confederacy is not even close to comparing accurately what the situation is with Taiwan. By the way, we broke diplomatic relations with Taiwan along time ago. The relationship we have with Taiwan is no different than any one of many countries around the world. We have defense treaties with South Korea. You could make the same argument that was just a Civil War, etc. well I think you are wrong, it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

[toastedbread]

Then why are we doing something instead of leaving these countries continue hitting us

Obviously they've determined that the risk of spiraling escalation is too great. If you haven't noticed, we have a deep state that's obsessed with a certain country in the Middle East, who poses no direct threat to the homeland.

 

[Bobbyforever]

Obviously they've determined that the risk of spiraling escalation is too great. If you haven't noticed, we have a deep state that's obsessed with a certain country in the Middle East, who poses no direct threat to the homeland.

Really? You say that is the reason we don’t take any action with China, Russia, North Korea, etc.

 

[toastedbread]

Really? You say that is the reason we don’t take any action with China, Russia, North Korea, etc.

Well, yeah? North Korea they are afraid of retaliation on SK.

Plus all possess nukes.