The Serious Election Day Thread

[hoot1]

The problem is that politicians do what they do out of their own best interest - not the country’s.

They rarely raise taxes (and when they do they usually try to limit the scope of the burden) and they virtually never cut spending.

Plus, when they do increase spending, do you think they do it where they can get the best multipliers…or do you think they do it to benefit their patrons and supporters?

Keynesian economics has failed us and put us in an untenable position because it relies on the control and influence of a small number of self-interested humans. If we had it done by an untouchable algorithm, maybe it would give us better results.

In respect to budget deficits, completely agree the pols stressing the next election and being reelected while not looking at the long term consequences of the accumulation of debt.

However, cannot blame Keynes for this as he did recommend running surpluses during upswings in the economy and deficits during recessions. Don't think he foresaw the gradual increase over the years (of what is now a large percentage of the federal budget) of mandatory spending (autopilot spending) versus discretionary spending. Keynes based his economic theory on the use of discretionary spending.

 

[BradStevens]

Are Dems going to get the message?

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Nope. We've seen it here. They bury their heads in the sand and blame it on right-wing propaganda, boogeyman creation, etc.

 

[hoot1]

Nope. We've seen it here. They bury their heads in the sand and blame it on right-wing propaganda, boogeyman creation, etc.

The Republican message obviously appeals to more voters than does the Democrat message when you look at the election results at all levels of government in most places across the country.

The message is important along with how it is delivered.

Propaganda to one person is the absolute truth to another. It is usually just a matter of opinion and who you believe to arrive at that opinion.

 

[Spartans9312]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/opinion/trump-elites-working-class.html

“There will be some on the left who will say Trump won because of the inherent racism, sexism and authoritarianism of the American people. Apparently, those people love losing and want to do it again and again and again.”

 

[IUCrazy2]

Are Dems going to get the message?

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Based on early returns? I don't know, at least in the short term. What happened this week was Nixon's "Silent Majority" indicating their displeasure with the current status quo. Thing is, I think Trump wasn't just an vote against the Democrat status quo. There is quite a bit of disillusionment with where this country is at and it's current trajectory and there is blame to spread everywhere.

 

[Spartans9312]

 

[BradStevens]

The Republican message obviously appeals to more voters than does the Democrat message when you look at the election results at all levels of government in most places across the country.

The message is important along with how it is delivered.

Those of us with kids in these schools don't need a message from a politician to see what is going on.

Just like those of us who frequent Popeye's don't need anyone to tell us how out of whack the price of food has become. Over $12 for two a two piece combo, hoot!!! Ditto gas, etc.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

In respect to budget deficits, completely agree the pols stressing the next election and being reelected while not looking at the long term consequences of the accumulation of debt.

However, cannot blame Keynes for this as he did recommend running surpluses during upswings in the economy and deficits during recessions. Don't think he foresaw the gradual increase over the years (of what is now a large percentage of the federal budget) of mandatory spending (autopilot spending) versus discretionary spending. Keynes based his economic theory on the use of discretionary spending.

Oh, I don't blame Keynes for it. I hope I've been clear about that.

I'm just saying that his proscription can't be relied upon as a general economic philosophy because of the human factor. Politicians just can't help themselves. ARP is a great recent example. The national checkbook was open, the Dems had a trifecta, and they had some things they'd been waiting a long time to get done. The economy didn't even need stimulus, the COVID recovery was well underway. I don't know how much inflationary pressure that bill created, but it was more than zero.

This is the reason I get driven so crazy when we judge things by their intentions rather than results. Saying "Well, Keynes didn't intend for his economic philosophy to result in $36T in debt" is of no useful consequence, isn't it?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Nope. We've seen it here. They bury their heads in the sand and blame it on right-wing propaganda, boogeyman creation, etc.

So what is the message? The Ds passed a massive infrastructure bill that hires a lot of blue collar workers, mostly male, to build bridges, roads, ports, etc. Only a couple Rs voted for it. There were people working on those projects who voted R because D does nothing for them.

When the UAW, mostly male, went on strike the R candidate called for them to be fired. The D candidate gave a talk on the strike line encouraging them. The strike concluded with generous raises to UAW workers. They were not fired, as suggested and those workers voted R.

So what is it the lesson, not to help blue collar male workers economically?

The culture issues outweighed those economic.

 

[hoosboot]

Those of us with kids in these schools don't need a message from a politician to see what is going on.

Just like those of us who frequent Popeye's don't need anyone to tell us how out of whack the price of food has become. Over $12 for two a two piece combo, hoot!!! Ditto gas, etc.

You don't have the $6 box at Popeye's? Two pieces of chicken two sides and a biscuit for $6. Thanks, Biden!

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Nope. We've seen it here. They bury their heads in the sand and blame it on right-wing propaganda, boogeyman creation, etc.

I've come across some Dem post-mortems that make sound arguments. Noah Smith is a Dem economics blogger who I like to read occasionally. And he has a piece out decrying identity politics. That seems pretty overdue -- but he uses the context of Trump's performance with Hispanics to make his case.

The thing is: identity politics doesn't seem like a light switch that party leaders can just turn on and turn off. "Hey, let's stop messaging that way guys, OK?" I mean, what do they do about their support for racial preferences? The preferences for college admissions are gone. But preferences for other kinds of things (like public contracting) still remain. Are they doing to abandon those positions? And, if so, at what cost?

Matt Yglesias has come out with a list of 9 principles he'd like to see the Democratic Party embrace. I think they all make sense -- but I'm sure many Dems will not see at least some of these that way. Consider #5 -- you think the trans movement is going to just accept that in the name of Democratic Party prospects? I don't.

 

[BradStevens]

You don't have the $6 box at Popeye's? Two pieces of chicken two sides and a biscuit for $6. Thanks, Biden!

I'm headed there right now to see if we have this.

 

[hoosboot]

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Another really interesting post, Sparty. Curious about the people giving it a thumbs up. @mcmurtry66 , @BadWakeboarder , @IUJIM , you guys agreeing with Bernie on healthcare and Israel? Income inequality?

 

[mcmurtry66]

Another really interesting post, Sparty. Curious about the people giving it a thumbs up. @mcmurtry66 , @BadWakeboarder , @IUJIM , you guys agreeing with Bernie on healthcare and Israel? Income inequality?

My like re Bernie related to and was limited to his take on the working class. That same argument/criticism can be directed to the old guard pubs as well.

 

[hoosboot]

I'm headed there right now to see if we have this.

They call it the $6 big box, but it's really $6.99. Still a long ways from $12 though. Wonder how they can afford to do this if inflation has made a two-piece cost $12. 🤷‍♂️

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

So what is the message? The Ds passed a massive infrastructure bill that hires a lot of blue collar workers, mostly male, to build bridges, roads, ports, etc. Only a couple Rs voted for it. There were people working on those projects who voted R because D does nothing for them.

When the UAW, mostly male, went on strike the R candidate called for them to be fired. The D candidate gave a talk on the strike line encouraging them. The strike concluded with generous raises to UAW workers. They were not fired, as suggested and those workers voted R.

So what is it the lesson, not to help blue collar male workers economically?

The culture issues outweighed those economic.

I'm sure that's the case for many voters. Obviously, it isn't any one thing. You saying this brings me back to Thomas Franks' "What's the Matter with Kansas?" Franks' basic premise was that conservatism was bad economically for lots of people in Kansas'...and yet they voted that way. And his primary conclusion was that it was a cultural divide. And I'm sure there's something to that.

But I also wonder if he ever considered the possibility that the people he's talking about don't look to the government for their well-being. A lot of people are wired this way: they'd rather have less than their neighbor...than to have somebody take things from their neighbor and give them to them.

The other thing people need to remember is that inflation is a helluva tough thing politically. Anybody who doubts me should ask Nixon, Ford, and Carter -- none of whom saw the end of a second term as president. And while Watergate was the big reason Nixon fell, don't discount the role that rising inflation had on his political standing.

Inflation is the great economic regulator that bedevils politicians when they can't really regulate themselves -- not just in America, but everywhere.

 

[hoot1]

Oh, I don't blame Keynes for it. I hope I've been clear about that.

I'm just saying that his proscription can't be relied upon as a general economic philosophy because of the human factor. Politicians just can't help themselves. ARP is a great recent example. The national checkbook was open, the Dems had a trifecta, and they had some things they'd been waiting a long time to get done. The economy didn't even need stimulus, the COVID recovery was well underway. I don't know how much inflationary pressure that bill created, but it was more than zero.

This is the reason I get driven so crazy when we judge things by their intentions rather than results. Saying "Well, Keynes didn't intend for his economic philosophy to result in $36T in debt" is of no useful consequence, isn't it?

So what is the message? The Ds passed a massive infrastructure bill that hires a lot of blue collar workers, mostly male, to build bridges, roads, ports, etc. Only a couple Rs voted for it. There were people working on those projects who voted R because D does nothing for them.

When the UAW, mostly male, went on strike the R candidate called for them to be fired. The D candidate gave a talk on the strike line encouraging them. The strike concluded with generous raises to UAW workers. They were not fired, as suggested and those workers voted R.

So what is it the lesson, not to help blue collar male workers economically?

The culture issues outweighed those economic.

Craze makes the argument that the Biden spending contributed to inflation.

MtM says the infrastructure spending was necessary and helped the economy.

Bottom line, voters in retrospect apparently blamed Bidenomics for inflation while not giving any credit to the administration's spending as helping the economy.

 

[BradStevens]

They call it the $6 big box, but it's really $6.99. Still a long ways from $12 though. Wonder how they can afford to do this if inflation has made a two-piece cost $12. 🤷‍♂️

Maybe they've noticed people like me stopped going because of the price? That looks like dark meat only . My son will like that, though.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Craze makes the argument that the Biden spending contributed to inflation.

MtM says the infrastructure spending was necessary and helped the economy.

Bottom line, voters in retrospect apparently blamed Bidenomics for inflation while not giving any credit to the administration's spending as helping the economy.

I don't know how much of the infrastructure spending has even made its way into circulation. But I don't think it's very much of it. No, I'm thinking more about ARP and IRA -- especially ARP.

Also, "helping the economy" is kind of a broad statement. Printing and spending money creates demand, which creates productivity growth. GDP = C + I + G + (X-I) where C is consumption, I is investment, G is government spending, and (X-I) is net exports.

Our economy did not lack for demand in early 2021. The markets and employment were still in the process of recovering from Covid, but they were doing so very well. There's zero question that ARP contributed to the inflation -- just as there's zero question that the Covid relief bills Trump signed did as well.

 

[hoosboot]

Nope. We've seen it here. They bury their heads in the sand and blame it on right-wing propaganda, boogeyman creation, etc.

I can't remember Harris talking much at all about transgender issues since she became the nominee. I haven't seen that issue identified in any of the exit polling as something that was a top mover of votes. Most of what I've seen is economic, border, and foreign policy issues are the big drivers of votes. What have you seen data-wise to indicate that positions on transgender issues was a big driver in this election?

 

[hoosboot]

Maybe they've noticed people like me stopped going because of the price? That looks like dark meat only . My son will like that, though.

You can do white or dark.

So, do you think they can still make money on this price?

 

[snarlcakes]

You don't have the $6 box at Popeye's? Two pieces of chicken two sides and a biscuit for $6. Thanks, Biden!

Not if you like large breasts like Brad. A 2 piece of those run 12.99.

 

[Univee2]

Maybe they've noticed people like me stopped going because of the price? That looks like dark meat only . My son will like that, though.

Whoa. Wait just a fvcking minute here. Dark meat chicken is the only way to go. Popeye’s spicy chicken thighs are the best.

 

[mattndallas]

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So kinda like Nebraska working on their two minute drill before the Indiana game?

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

The Republican message obviously appeals to more voters than does the Democrat message when you look at the election results at all levels of government in most places across the country.

Do you think Democratic voters are willing to change? Let's assume (and hope) for argument's sake that Trump is done and we have new choices in 2028. If the GOP runs a more normal candidate (not saying they will), there is risk that Republicans could pickup even more votes given Never Trumpers and his alienation of certain segments (e.g., Suburban vote).

I just don't see what the catalyst will be change the mindset and direction of the Democratic party, which either refuses to call out extremist stances or is drowned out by such extremist members.

 

[BradStevens]

Whoa. Wait just a fvcking minute here. Dark meat chicken is the only way to go. Popeye’s spicy chicken thighs are the best.

$6 only good M-W. One side and dark meat.

$9.89 today for same.

 

[hoot1]

I can't remember Harris talking much at all about transgender issues since she became the nominee. I haven't seen that issue identified in any of the exit polling as something that was a top mover of votes. Most of what I've seen is economic, border, and foreign policy issues are the big drivers of votes. What have you seen data-wise to indicate that positions on transgender issues was a big driver in this election?

IMO the culture wars including how to deal with trans played an important role.

More so than the overthrow of Roe which the Dems stressed. A topic for them which may actually have backfired in the final analysis. Solidified the base, but at the expense of not gaining votes among certain religious groups.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Whoa. Wait just a fvcking minute here. Dark meat chicken is the only way to go. Popeye’s spicy chicken thighs are the best.

How are you guys eating popsye’s. They’re only in the hood here

 

[JamieDimonsBalls]

I assume the underlining principle is the limitations of labor and resources.

What do those have to do with market equilibriums of savings and loans, let alone expecting those two items to be equivalent?

They cycle, sometimes together, but are significantly different in value.

 

[Univee2]

How are you guys eating popsye’s. They’re only in the hood here

There are a couple in the suburbs here. Spicy thighs - only way to go.

 

[ChicagoFineForNow]

Bob Casey needs to concede.

 

[mcmurtry66]

There are a couple in the suburbs here. Spicy thighs - only way to go.

Lucky

 

[Univee2]

Lucky

You can’t drive the Ferrari through a drive- through in the hood?

 

[BradStevens]

You can do white or dark.

So, do you think they can still make money on this price?

I don’t know. I’d assume yes but maybe they run these limited time deals to get repeat customers in the door addicted to their delicious chicken?

 

[mcmurtry66]

You can’t drive the Ferrari through a drive- through in the hood?

Popeyes you put your life at risk. Those places are ground zero

Hazelwood man charged with pointing gun at Popeye’s employees

A Hazelwood man was charged with pointing a gun at employees of a North County Popeye’s restaurant.

www.firstalert4.com

 

[BradStevens]

Do you think Democratic voters are willing to change? Let's assume (and hope) for argument's sake that Trump is done and we have new choices in 2028. If the GOP runs a more normal candidate (not saying they will), there is risk that Republicans could pickup even more votes given Never Trumpers and his alienation of certain segments (e.g., Suburban vote).

I just don't see what the catalyst will be change the mindset and direction of the Democratic party, which either refuses to call out extremist stances or is drowned out by such extremist members.

Trump is a unique candidate who probably generates low propensity voters to vote for him. Do not sure what’s going to happen in 28.

 

[Univee2]

Popeyes you put your life at risk. Those places are ground zero

Hazelwood man charged with pointing gun at Popeye’s employees

A Hazelwood man was charged with pointing a gun at employees of a North County Popeye’s restaurant.

www.firstalert4.com

Time to move.

 

[BradStevens]

How are you guys eating popsye’s. They’re only in the hood here

So?

 

[hoot1]

Do you think Democratic voters are willing to change? Let's assume (and hope) for argument's sake that Trump is done and we have new choices in 2028. If the GOP runs a more normal candidate (not saying they will), there is risk that Republicans could pickup even more votes given Never Trumpers and his alienation of certain segments (e.g., Suburban vote).

I just don't see what the catalyst will be change the mindset and direction of the Democratic party, which either refuses to call out extremist stances or is drowned out by such extremist members.

The repetitive and simple message that Dems are "extreme", "hopelessly liberal", etc. works as was seen in ads across the country where Republican candidates won.

To most people by definition a conservative cannot be extreme.

 

[mcmurtry66]

So?