The moral bankruptcy of (certain forms of) conservative both-sidesism on this forum

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

What I'm about to type really applies to large swaths of right-wing discourse in the media, as well, but as I don't expect to have any actual dialogue with Tucker Carlson, I'm directing this at people who actually post here.

A fair number of conservative posters here seem genuinely obsessed with pointing out when people on the left do bad things, then equating these bad things with things that people on the right have done, which the left has complained about. Then the lefties are called hypocrites. We're hypocrites for calling someone a racist if we don't also call Sarah Jeong a racist. We're hypocrites for bemoaning white nationalist marchers if we don't also bemoan leftist protesters harassing conservatives. The problem is, these things are not equivalent.

No, I don't complain about leftist protesters acting like dicks in public. I don't much care if they harass a conservative figure walking into or out of a restaurant. I also don't complain about religious folks protesting at abortion clinics. I don't complain about them harassing women walking into or out of those clinics. Why? Because people are dicks, and people being dicks to each other doesn't really register very high on my outrage meter.

I do complain about white nationalists marching down the streets chanting racist slogans. What they represent is a level of evil far beyond protesters on either side being dicks. And yet, according to a number of posters here, the fact that I vocally oppose actual Nazis, but don't vocally oppose entitled brats with the same level of outrage, proves that I'm a raging hypocrite. According to some here, the fact that I have the gall to criticize a prominent right-wing talking head for broadcasting well-known racist dog whistle nonsense to her viewers, but can't summon up the same disgust for some leftist writer I'd barely heard of before being a troll on social media makes me a hypocrite. One poster even suggested it makes me a racist.

This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them. Not even close. These two events exist in entirely different moral universes, and by demanding that the left condemn one with the same fervor as the other implies that they are morally equivalent, which is disgusting.

But to make matters worse, these same conservative posters can't even meet their own despicable standards. Most of these posters, while outraged at the slightest offense by the left, couldn't manage more than a "ho-hum, that's terrible, I guess" at the Charlottesville Nazis, implying that they actually think the white nationalists are worthy of less moral outrage than the liberal protesters. That's beyond disgusting.

Now, some of these same posters also complain about being accused of racism regularly. While I cannot recall any instance on this forum of those posters being explicitly accused of racism, allow me to take their complaint at face value, and trust that these accusations have indeed flown at them on a regular basis. When looking at this moral bankruptcy they are displaying, this ethical universe they are constructing in which promoting and supporting racial genocide is at worst the moral equivalent of being a dick to someone else in a restaurant, quite frankly, I'm not surprised they are accused of being racist. When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than complete respect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...

Think about it.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

What I'm about to type really applies to large swaths of right-wing discourse in the media, as well, but as I don't expect to have any actual dialogue with Tucker Carlson, I'm directing this at people who actually post here.

A fair number of conservative posters here seem genuinely obsessed with pointing out when people on the left do bad things, then equating these bad things with things that people on the right have done, which the left has complained about. Then the lefties are called hypocrites. We're hypocrites for calling someone a racist if we don't also call Sarah Jeong a racist. We're hypocrites for bemoaning white nationalist marchers if we don't also bemoan leftist protesters harassing conservatives. The problem is, these things are not equivalent.

No, I don't complain about leftist protesters acting like dicks in public. I don't much care if they harass a conservative figure walking into or out of a restaurant. I also don't complain about religious folks protesting at abortion clinics. I don't complain about them harassing women walking into or out of those clinics. Why? Because people are dicks, and people being dicks to each other doesn't really register very high on my outrage meter.

I do complain about white nationalists marching down the streets chanting racist slogans. What they represent is a level of evil far beyond protesters on either side being dicks. And yet, according to a number of posters here, the fact that I vocally oppose actual Nazis, but don't vocally oppose entitled brats with the same level of outrage, proves that I'm a raging hypocrite. According to some here, the fact that I have the gall to criticize a prominent right-wing talking head for broadcasting well-known racist dog whistle nonsense to her viewers, but can't summon up the same disgust for some leftist writer I'd barely heard of before being a troll on social media makes me a hypocrite. One poster even suggested it makes me a racist.

This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them. Not even close. These two events exist in entirely different moral universes, and by demanding that the left condemn one with the same fervor as the other implies that they are morally equivalent, which is disgusting.

But to make matters worse, these same conservative posters can't even meet their own despicable standards. Most of these posters, while outraged at the slightest offense by the left, couldn't manage more than a "ho-hum, that's terrible, I guess" at the Charlottesville Nazis, implying that they actually think the white nationalists are worthy of less moral outrage than the liberal protesters. That's beyond disgusting.

Now, some of these same posters also complain about being accused of racism regularly. While I cannot recall any instance on this forum of those posters being explicitly accused of racism, allow me to take their complaint at face value, and trust that these accusations have indeed flown at them on a regular basis. When looking at this moral bankruptcy they are displaying, this ethical universe they are constructing in which promoting and supporting racial genocide is at worst the moral equivalent of being a dick to someone else in a restaurant, quite frankly, I'm not surprised they are accused of being racist. When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than complete respect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...

Think about it.

This is well stated and I agree with just about everything. My only issue is calling these people conservatives. There’s nothing inherently conservative about these people and their behavior. It’s simply #NewGOP behavior. I’m a conservative and i certainly do not engage in dog whistling and I outright reject anybody’s claims that sucker punching Spencer is morally equivalent to Nazis waking through a college town spewing their hate.

My party has been hijacked by idiots and know-nothing cognitive dissonance-wielding crappy Americans. And that’s all there is to it.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

This is well stated and I agree with just about everything. My only issue is calling these people conservatives. There’s nothing inherently conservative about these people and their behavior. It’s simply #NewGOP behavior. I’m a conservative and i certainly do not engage in dog whistling and I outright reject anybody’s claims that sucker punching Spencer is morally equivalent to Nazis waking through a college town spewing their hate.

My party has been hijacked by idiots and know-nothing cognitive dissonance-wielding crappy Americans. And that’s all there is to it.

I think we've reached a point in time where "conservative" is more an identity than an ideology. Traditional conservatives like yourself have every right to be pissed about this.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

What I'm about to type really applies to large swaths of right-wing discourse in the media, as well, but as I don't expect to have any actual dialogue with Tucker Carlson, I'm directing this at people who actually post here.

A fair number of conservative posters here seem genuinely obsessed with pointing out when people on the left do bad things, then equating these bad things with things that people on the right have done, which the left has complained about. Then the lefties are called hypocrites. We're hypocrites for calling someone a racist if we don't also call Sarah Jeong a racist. We're hypocrites for bemoaning white nationalist marchers if we don't also bemoan leftist protesters harassing conservatives. The problem is, these things are not equivalent.

No, I don't complain about leftist protesters acting like dicks in public. I don't much care if they harass a conservative figure walking into or out of a restaurant. I also don't complain about religious folks protesting at abortion clinics. I don't complain about them harassing women walking into or out of those clinics. Why? Because people are dicks, and people being dicks to each other doesn't really register very high on my outrage meter.

I do complain about white nationalists marching down the streets chanting racist slogans. What they represent is a level of evil far beyond protesters on either side being dicks. And yet, according to a number of posters here, the fact that I vocally oppose actual Nazis, but don't vocally oppose entitled brats with the same level of outrage, proves that I'm a raging hypocrite. According to some here, the fact that I have the gall to criticize a prominent right-wing talking head for broadcasting well-known racist dog whistle nonsense to her viewers, but can't summon up the same disgust for some leftist writer I'd barely heard of before being a troll on social media makes me a hypocrite. One poster even suggested it makes me a racist.

This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them. Not even close. These two events exist in entirely different moral universes, and by demanding that the left condemn one with the same fervor as the other implies that they are morally equivalent, which is disgusting.

But to make matters worse, these same conservative posters can't even meet their own despicable standards. Most of these posters, while outraged at the slightest offense by the left, couldn't manage more than a "ho-hum, that's terrible, I guess" at the Charlottesville Nazis, implying that they actually think the white nationalists are worthy of less moral outrage than the liberal protesters. That's beyond disgusting.

Now, some of these same posters also complain about being accused of racism regularly. While I cannot recall any instance on this forum of those posters being explicitly accused of racism, allow me to take their complaint at face value, and trust that these accusations have indeed flown at them on a regular basis. When looking at this moral bankruptcy they are displaying, this ethical universe they are constructing in which promoting and supporting racial genocide is at worst the moral equivalent of being a dick to someone else in a restaurant, quite frankly, I'm not surprised they are accused of being racist. When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than complete respect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...

Think about it.

 

[Hoosier_Hack]

I think we've reached a point in time where "conservative" is more an identity than an ideology. Traditional conservatives like yourself have every right to be pissed about this.

Traditional like yourself..... I just spit my beer out with laughter.

 

[wiede]

This is well stated and I agree with just about everything. My only issue is calling these people conservatives. There’s nothing inherently conservative about these people and their behavior. It’s simply #NewGOP behavior. I’m a conservative and i certainly do not engage in dog whistling and I outright reject anybody’s claims that sucker punching Spencer is morally equivalent to Nazis waking through a college town spewing their hate.

My party has been hijacked by idiots and know-nothing cognitive dissonance-wielding crappy Americans. And that’s all there is to it.

I feel bad for you brother. The inmates are running the asylum. And not just the general population inmates. They’re the death row inmates that are calling the shots now.

I really respect the conservatives here that realized that Trumpsim is an abomination, and rightly rejected it a while ago. It ain’t conservatism, and it will never be.

Side note- whataboutism & false equivalencies absolutely plague this board. Like goat said.

And it sucks. It turns what could be a thoughtful and well-supported with fact debate, and turns it into a complete chit show of a thread.

 

[Ladoga]

They used to be called radicals, anar

Coming from the most arrogant and intellectually dishonest poster ever...love that “transactional thinking”

You're not responding to a post by Goat or Rock. Think you have this post in the wrong place.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I really respect the conservatives here that realized that Trumpsim is an abomination, and rightly rejected it a while ago. It ain’t conservatism, and it will never be.

What are you talking about? I don’t think anybody who pays attention to Trump and understands conservatives thinks that Trump is a conservative. I know I don’t.

I think Trump is totally transactional. He looks at each issue without the burden of any ideology.

 

[UncleMark]

I think Trump is totally transactional. He looks at each issue without the burden of any ideology.

And you defend him on Every. Single. One.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Traditional like yourself..... I just spit my beer out with laughter.

You have no clue what you’re asking about. Your head is so far up your fourth point of contact that you cannot realize that you’re Patient Zero for know-nothing #NewGOPism. YOU sir, are the problem. Trump is the symptom.

Guys like me and Twenty02 are lost and it’s because we will not associate with the likes of YOU.

You can’t point to one post in here that I’ve made that shows I’m a traditional liberal. You have no idea what true conservatism or classical liberalism is. Mostly because you’re a terrible poster.

 

[IUCrazy2]

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11537306

I know many liberals who do incredible work to make the world around them better, and that’s not who I am talking about. I’m talking about the cocktail party liberals, the elites, who wear the cloak of liberalism to protect themselves from criticism and so they can keep a clear conscious.

My problem with Liberalism is that it’s more concerned with policing people’s language and thoughts without requiring them to do anything to fix the problem. White liberal college students speak of “safe spaces”, “trigger words”, “micro aggressions” and “white privilege” while not having to do anything or, more importantly, give up anything. They can’t even have a conversation with someone who sees the world differently without resorting to calling someone a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, bigot and trying to have them banned from campus, or ruin them and their reputation. They say they feel black peoples’ pain because they took a trip to Africa to help the disadvantaged, but are unwilling to go to a black neighborhood in the City in which they live. These same college students will espouse the joys of diversity, but will in the same breath assume you are only on campus because of affirmative action or that all black people grew up in poverty. My personal favorite is declaring with surprise how articulate a black classmate is despite the fact that we are attending the same institution of higher learning as they are.

The White Liberal culture encourages talking about diversity and shaming others for their alleged racism, but many times they themselves work in environments that are mostly white. When questioned they’ll defensively state that they promote strictly on merit. Black people aren’t suggesting that we want someone unqualified to get the position, but I find it telling that they assume that we are not qualified. These same Liberals are quick to be against school choice, while their kids go to private or well-regarded public schools. Leaving poor black children behind in underperforming schools and providing less opportunity to improve their lives is inconsequential to keeping true to their white liberal politics. Many people are quick to espouse the political values of liberalism without having to live with the often harsh reality of those policies.

Race, gender, religion and sexual orientation are such difficult discussions to have, and many of us don’t get it right, but my problem with some white liberals aren’t that they sometimes get it wrong, it’s their profound lack of self-awareness coupled with the smugness and self-righteousness that they use to lecture to others.

White Liberals have hijacked the conversation about diversity, political correctness and what topics we should be outraged about. When a terrorist attack occurs the media and liberals rightly remind us that it’s unfair to judge an entire religion by the actions of a small minority, but I haven’t heard similar unequivocal statements made in the media about the African-American community being unfairly judged by the negative actions of a few. The media lectures about intolerance of the Right, but is the first to show the mugshot of a young black suspect while showing the much more positive yearbook photo of a young white suspect. In fact the criminalization of African-Americans, especially men, has been turned into public policy in large part because of our negative portrayal in the media, which is predominantly filled with white liberal voices.

For so long, as a Black American, I have been told that the problem is Conservative Republicans. While I’ll admit they may have done little to try to improve African-American lives, they also don’t promise to every election season like the liberal elites. Instead we have given our loyalty and votes to Democrats, who paternalistically tell us they want to help us, but we have little to show for it since blacks started voting Democrat back in the 1960’s. I have never lived in a city as an adult that was run by Conservatives or Republicans, but I live in the biggest poor city in the country, Philadelphia. A city, for decades, run by liberal insiders.

The City of Philadelphia is going through a Renaissance thanks to the demand of young White millennials who want to live in vibrant urban areas. We have a thriving higher education community, one of the country’s best restaurant scenes and home values and rent prices are going up while 10 year property tax abatements make owning new and renovated homes in the City an attractive financial investment. We are an unapologetically liberal city and you cannot be elected in this City without black voters. But why is it that the black community is not benefiting from this same Renaissance as their white liberal counterparts?

While the children of our liberal contemporaries attend expensive private universities, how many black men are getting pulled into the prison system because of stop and frisk searches in these supposedly liberal cities? How many so called white liberals have really fought for those civil rights violations to be ended? My own city has a stop and frisk policy in place (even after promises of stopping it), but is also a sanctuary city for undocumented immigrants. It’s ironic that the liberal elites proudly proclaim the inhumanity of deportation which could break up the families of these immigrants, but they are more than happy to justify the need to send black men and women to prison for minor infractions, thus separating the families of American citizens. Where is the outrage for our families? Oh yeah, you can take the African-American vote for granted, so you don’t need to do more than pay lip service to our concerns.

White liberals posting on Facebook about #blacklivesmatter, white privilege and supremacy are not cleansed of their hypocrisy and elitism because they use the right hash tags. I would urge these same people to get off their iPhones and look around to see the issues they ignore in their own lives. If you’re one of these people, before you cry out in offense, ask yourself where you chose to live and how many of your neighbors, that you know, are people of color. Where do your kids go to school? Who are your friends and colleagues? Who do you see next to you while you’re in your meeting at work? What have you done to change those inequalities? Have you recommended a black friend for a job at your company, or told them about a house for sale in your neighborhood or recommended a talented black child go to your child’s school? Answer these questions honestly and you’ll realize that you might not be who you think you are when it comes to racial issues in this country. Are you are part of the group I’m referring to as smug white liberals and you don’t even know it?​

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11537306

I know many liberals who do incredible work to make the world around them better, and that’s not who I am talking about. I’m talking about the cocktail party liberals, the elites, who wear the cloak of liberalism to protect themselves from criticism and so they can keep a clear conscious.

My problem with Liberalism is that it’s more concerned with policing people’s language and thoughts without requiring them to do anything to fix the problem. White liberal college students speak of “safe spaces”, “trigger words”, “micro aggressions” and “white privilege” while not having to do anything or, more importantly, give up anything. They can’t even have a conversation with someone who sees the world differently without resorting to calling someone a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, bigot and trying to have them banned from campus, or ruin them and their reputation. They say they feel black peoples’ pain because they took a trip to Africa to help the disadvantaged, but are unwilling to go to a black neighborhood in the City in which they live. These same college students will espouse the joys of diversity, but will in the same breath assume you are only on campus because of affirmative action or that all black people grew up in poverty. My personal favorite is declaring with surprise how articulate a black classmate is despite the fact that we are attending the same institution of higher learning as they are.

The White Liberal culture encourages talking about diversity and shaming others for their alleged racism, but many times they themselves work in environments that are mostly white. When questioned they’ll defensively state that they promote strictly on merit. Black people aren’t suggesting that we want someone unqualified to get the position, but I find it telling that they assume that we are not qualified. These same Liberals are quick to be against school choice, while their kids go to private or well-regarded public schools. Leaving poor black children behind in underperforming schools and providing less opportunity to improve their lives is inconsequential to keeping true to their white liberal politics. Many people are quick to espouse the political values of liberalism without having to live with the often harsh reality of those policies.

Race, gender, religion and sexual orientation are such difficult discussions to have, and many of us don’t get it right, but my problem with some white liberals aren’t that they sometimes get it wrong, it’s their profound lack of self-awareness coupled with the smugness and self-righteousness that they use to lecture to others.

White Liberals have hijacked the conversation about diversity, political correctness and what topics we should be outraged about. When a terrorist attack occurs the media and liberals rightly remind us that it’s unfair to judge an entire religion by the actions of a small minority, but I haven’t heard similar unequivocal statements made in the media about the African-American community being unfairly judged by the negative actions of a few. The media lectures about intolerance of the Right, but is the first to show the mugshot of a young black suspect while showing the much more positive yearbook photo of a young white suspect. In fact the criminalization of African-Americans, especially men, has been turned into public policy in large part because of our negative portrayal in the media, which is predominantly filled with white liberal voices.

For so long, as a Black American, I have been told that the problem is Conservative Republicans. While I’ll admit they may have done little to try to improve African-American lives, they also don’t promise to every election season like the liberal elites. Instead we have given our loyalty and votes to Democrats, who paternalistically tell us they want to help us, but we have little to show for it since blacks started voting Democrat back in the 1960’s. I have never lived in a city as an adult that was run by Conservatives or Republicans, but I live in the biggest poor city in the country, Philadelphia. A city, for decades, run by liberal insiders.

The City of Philadelphia is going through a Renaissance thanks to the demand of young White millennials who want to live in vibrant urban areas. We have a thriving higher education community, one of the country’s best restaurant scenes and home values and rent prices are going up while 10 year property tax abatements make owning new and renovated homes in the City an attractive financial investment. We are an unapologetically liberal city and you cannot be elected in this City without black voters. But why is it that the black community is not benefiting from this same Renaissance as their white liberal counterparts?

While the children of our liberal contemporaries attend expensive private universities, how many black men are getting pulled into the prison system because of stop and frisk searches in these supposedly liberal cities? How many so called white liberals have really fought for those civil rights violations to be ended? My own city has a stop and frisk policy in place (even after promises of stopping it), but is also a sanctuary city for undocumented immigrants. It’s ironic that the liberal elites proudly proclaim the inhumanity of deportation which could break up the families of these immigrants, but they are more than happy to justify the need to send black men and women to prison for minor infractions, thus separating the families of American citizens. Where is the outrage for our families? Oh yeah, you can take the African-American vote for granted, so you don’t need to do more than pay lip service to our concerns.

White liberals posting on Facebook about #blacklivesmatter, white privilege and supremacy are not cleansed of their hypocrisy and elitism because they use the right hash tags. I would urge these same people to get off their iPhones and look around to see the issues they ignore in their own lives. If you’re one of these people, before you cry out in offense, ask yourself where you chose to live and how many of your neighbors, that you know, are people of color. Where do your kids go to school? Who are your friends and colleagues? Who do you see next to you while you’re in your meeting at work? What have you done to change those inequalities? Have you recommended a black friend for a job at your company, or told them about a house for sale in your neighborhood or recommended a talented black child go to your child’s school? Answer these questions honestly and you’ll realize that you might not be who you think you are when it comes to racial issues in this country. Are you are part of the group I’m referring to as smug white liberals and you don’t even know it?​

While there’s very little in here that I disagree with, it confirms Goat’s hypothesis that the #NewGOP views conservativism and liberalism as identities now and not as policy-informed viewpoints.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

And it sucks. It turns what could be a thoughtful and well-supported with fact debate, and turns it into a complete chit show of a thread.

This may be the worst part about it. When someone starts a thread about how hypocritical liberals are because of A, well, I might find their reasoning to be ludicrous for the reasons I outlined in my OP, but at least it doesn't ruin an already good thread. But far too often, this nonsense whataboutism is inserted into a thread that could otherwise be a good and enlightening conversation, but instead quickly devolves into food-fighting.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11537306

I know many liberals who do incredible work to make the world around them better, and that’s not who I am talking about. I’m talking about the cocktail party liberals, the elites, who wear the cloak of liberalism to protect themselves from criticism and so they can keep a clear conscious.

My problem with Liberalism is that it’s more concerned with policing people’s language and thoughts without requiring them to do anything to fix the problem. White liberal college students speak of “safe spaces”, “trigger words”, “micro aggressions” and “white privilege” while not having to do anything or, more importantly, give up anything. They can’t even have a conversation with someone who sees the world differently without resorting to calling someone a racist, homophobic, misogynistic, bigot and trying to have them banned from campus, or ruin them and their reputation. They say they feel black peoples’ pain because they took a trip to Africa to help the disadvantaged, but are unwilling to go to a black neighborhood in the City in which they live. These same college students will espouse the joys of diversity, but will in the same breath assume you are only on campus because of affirmative action or that all black people grew up in poverty. My personal favorite is declaring with surprise how articulate a black classmate is despite the fact that we are attending the same institution of higher learning as they are.

The White Liberal culture encourages talking about diversity and shaming others for their alleged racism, but many times they themselves work in environments that are mostly white. When questioned they’ll defensively state that they promote strictly on merit. Black people aren’t suggesting that we want someone unqualified to get the position, but I find it telling that they assume that we are not qualified. These same Liberals are quick to be against school choice, while their kids go to private or well-regarded public schools. Leaving poor black children behind in underperforming schools and providing less opportunity to improve their lives is inconsequential to keeping true to their white liberal politics. Many people are quick to espouse the political values of liberalism without having to live with the often harsh reality of those policies.

Race, gender, religion and sexual orientation are such difficult discussions to have, and many of us don’t get it right, but my problem with some white liberals aren’t that they sometimes get it wrong, it’s their profound lack of self-awareness coupled with the smugness and self-righteousness that they use to lecture to others.

White Liberals have hijacked the conversation about diversity, political correctness and what topics we should be outraged about. When a terrorist attack occurs the media and liberals rightly remind us that it’s unfair to judge an entire religion by the actions of a small minority, but I haven’t heard similar unequivocal statements made in the media about the African-American community being unfairly judged by the negative actions of a few. The media lectures about intolerance of the Right, but is the first to show the mugshot of a young black suspect while showing the much more positive yearbook photo of a young white suspect. In fact the criminalization of African-Americans, especially men, has been turned into public policy in large part because of our negative portrayal in the media, which is predominantly filled with white liberal voices.

For so long, as a Black American, I have been told that the problem is Conservative Republicans. While I’ll admit they may have done little to try to improve African-American lives, they also don’t promise to every election season like the liberal elites. Instead we have given our loyalty and votes to Democrats, who paternalistically tell us they want to help us, but we have little to show for it since blacks started voting Democrat back in the 1960’s. I have never lived in a city as an adult that was run by Conservatives or Republicans, but I live in the biggest poor city in the country, Philadelphia. A city, for decades, run by liberal insiders.

The City of Philadelphia is going through a Renaissance thanks to the demand of young White millennials who want to live in vibrant urban areas. We have a thriving higher education community, one of the country’s best restaurant scenes and home values and rent prices are going up while 10 year property tax abatements make owning new and renovated homes in the City an attractive financial investment. We are an unapologetically liberal city and you cannot be elected in this City without black voters. But why is it that the black community is not benefiting from this same Renaissance as their white liberal counterparts?

While the children of our liberal contemporaries attend expensive private universities, how many black men are getting pulled into the prison system because of stop and frisk searches in these supposedly liberal cities? How many so called white liberals have really fought for those civil rights violations to be ended? My own city has a stop and frisk policy in place (even after promises of stopping it), but is also a sanctuary city for undocumented immigrants. It’s ironic that the liberal elites proudly proclaim the inhumanity of deportation which could break up the families of these immigrants, but they are more than happy to justify the need to send black men and women to prison for minor infractions, thus separating the families of American citizens. Where is the outrage for our families? Oh yeah, you can take the African-American vote for granted, so you don’t need to do more than pay lip service to our concerns.

White liberals posting on Facebook about #blacklivesmatter, white privilege and supremacy are not cleansed of their hypocrisy and elitism because they use the right hash tags. I would urge these same people to get off their iPhones and look around to see the issues they ignore in their own lives. If you’re one of these people, before you cry out in offense, ask yourself where you chose to live and how many of your neighbors, that you know, are people of color. Where do your kids go to school? Who are your friends and colleagues? Who do you see next to you while you’re in your meeting at work? What have you done to change those inequalities? Have you recommended a black friend for a job at your company, or told them about a house for sale in your neighborhood or recommended a talented black child go to your child’s school? Answer these questions honestly and you’ll realize that you might not be who you think you are when it comes to racial issues in this country. Are you are part of the group I’m referring to as smug white liberals and you don’t even know it?​

Perhaps a few words of your own on how this is remotely responsive to what I actually posted about?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

You have no clue what you’re asking about. Your head is so far up your fourth point of contact that you cannot realize that you’re Patient Zero for know-nothing #NewGOPism. YOU sir, are the problem. Trump is the symptom.

Guys like me and Twenty02 are lost and it’s because we will not associate with the likes of YOU.

You can’t point to one post in here that I’ve made that shows I’m a traditional liberal. You have no idea what true conservatism or classical liberalism is. Mostly because you’re a terrible poster.

Since I started the thread, I felt I owed it to myself and others to click "Show Ignored Content" at least once. About what I expected to find, and from whom.

 

[IUCrazy2]

While there’s very little in here that I disagree with, it confirms Goat’s hypothesis that the #NewGOP views conservativism and liberalism as identities now and not as policy-informed viewpoints.

Yawn.

And you guys have had some real great policy informed views on here lately, let me tell you...

Additionally, as a conservative, I feel that there are some issues, some human conditions, that the government cannot policy there way out of. I have asked on numerous occasions what policy can be enforced to combat "white privelege" and nobody here wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. Please, let's start talking about what should be done from a policy perspective to end racial discrimination.

I am all ears.

I will shut up and give you all the platform, dazzle me with your brilliance. I would also like all of the other conservative posters to refrain from posting anything else in this thread. We are too stupid to partake in this conversation, let our liberal brothers offer their solutions to this problem.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yawn.

And you guys have had some real great policy informed views on here lately, let me tell you...

Additionally, as a conservative, I feel that there are some issues, some human conditions, that the government cannot policy there way out of. I have asked on numerous occasions what policy can be enforced to combat "white privelege" and nobody here wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. Please, let's start talking about what should be done from a policy perspective to end racial discrimination.

I am all ears.

I will shut up and give you all the platform, dazzle me with your brilliance. I would also like all of the other conservative posters to refrain from posting anything else in this thread. We are too stupid to partake in this conversation, let our liberal brothers offer their solutions to this problem.

You're not too stupid. You're just making a conscious choice not to address the actual point I made to start this thread.

 

[UncleMark]

You're not too stupid. You're just making a conscious choice not to address the actual point I made to start this thread.

Yeah, but whatabout...

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Yawn.

And you guys have had some real great policy informed views on here lately, let me tell you...

Additionally, as a conservative, I feel that there are some issues, some human conditions, that the government cannot policy there way out of. I have asked on numerous occasions what policy can be enforced to combat "white privelege" and nobody here wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. Please, let's start talking about what should be done from a policy perspective to end racial discrimination.

I am all ears.

I will shut up and give you all the platform, dazzle me with your brilliance. I would also like all of the other conservative posters to refrain from posting anything else in this thread. We are too stupid to partake in this conversation, let our liberal brothers offer their solutions to this problem.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. You posted an entire missive from somebody that talked exclusively about identity politics. I then pointed to Goat’s claim that today’s conservative movement is all about identity and you post this? Why? What the hell are you talking about? And who is “you guys?”

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Yawn.

And you guys have had some real great policy informed views on here lately, let me tell you...

Additionally, as a conservative, I feel that there are some issues, some human conditions, that the government cannot policy there way out of. I have asked on numerous occasions what policy can be enforced to combat "white privelege" and nobody here wants to touch it with a ten foot pole. Please, let's start talking about what should be done from a policy perspective to end racial discrimination.

I am all ears.

I will shut up and give you all the platform, dazzle me with your brilliance. I would also like all of the other conservative posters to refrain from posting anything else in this thread. We are too stupid to partake in this conversation, let our liberal brothers offer their solutions to this problem.

I do not know what the solution is to white privilege, but I believe like most problems in the world, ignoring it is wrong. Too many conservatives want to ignore racism, income inequality, lack of healthcare, global warming. I used to point out how our antibiotics were failing and it wasn't liberals who opposed funding for increased research. Many conservatives seem to believe we should go on exactly as we are, or as we did in 1950, no matter the problem.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I do not know what the solution is to white privilege, but I believe like most problems in the world, ignoring it is wrong. Too many conservatives want to ignore racism, income inequality, lack of healthcare, global warming. I used to point out how our antibiotics were failing and it wasn't liberals who opposed funding for increased research. Many conservatives seem to believe we should go on exactly as we are, or as we did in 1950, no matter the problem.

Again, none of these decisions above are “conservative” positions. They’re #NewGOP positions.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You're not too stupid. You're just making a conscious choice not to address the actual point I made to start this thread.

When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than completerespect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...
​

That seems to be the main thrust of your argument. To me it is a complete strawman. Who is getting worked up about a white supremacist not being treated with respect? If we are discussing Jeong, she attacked all white people. If we are talking Antifa, I have shown on numerous occasions how they target more than white supremacists. I have said I don't care about the white supremacists, I care about people like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, bike lock to the back of the head guy, et. al. who are not white supremacists but still fall under the umbrella of "legitimate" targets in the eyes of Antifa. You guys continually downplay that and say we are defending Nazis, which is baloney.

Now I may use salty language and be a dick sometimes but I have offered plenty of support for my argument, even from sources that I do not typically agree with. I am legitimately ready to have a discussion with you all. A no name calling one. I am offering to shut up. Start a thread and throw out some solutions. I honestly admit that from a policy perspective, I find solutions hard to come by because I do not think you change hearts and attitudes through government action (how un-conservative of me, I know) but I am willing to listen. I hear much talk about "white privelege" and how aloof that the right is on this topic. Great, you feel you occupy a morally superior position to mine. Now what? How do we get to racial equality?

 

[UncleMark]

Many conservatives seem to believe we should go on exactly as we are, or as we did in 1950, no matter the problem.

Wasn't that when America was Great?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than completerespect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...
​

That seems to be the main thrust of your argument. To me it is a complete strawman. Who is getting worked up about a white supremacist not being treated with respect? If we are discussing Jeong, she attacked all white people. If we are talking Antifa, I have shown on numerous occasions how they target more than white supremacists. I have said I don't care about the white supremacists, I care about people like Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, bike lock to the back of the head guy, et. al. who are not white supremacists but still fall under the umbrella of "legitimate" targets in the eyes of Antifa. You guys continually downplay that and say we are defending Nazis, which is baloney.

Now I may use salty language and be a dick sometimes but I have offered plenty of support for my argument, even from sources that I do not typically agree with. I am legitimately ready to have a discussion with you all. A no name calling one. I am offering to shut up. Start a thread and throw out some solutions. I honestly admit that from a policy perspective, I find solutions hard to come by because I do not think you change hearts and attitudes through government action (how un-conservative of me, I know) but I am willing to listen. I hear much talk about "white privelege" and how aloof that the right is on this topic. Great, you feel you occupy a morally superior position to mine. Now what? How do we get to racial equality?

Yes, we all know how much you hate Antifa, and how you feel we aren't doing enough to condemn it. That's the whole point of this thread. You are morally equating Antifa with Nazis. You have all this outrage for Antifa, for other leftist protesters. You can point out all the times they have stepped over the line and done something wrong. You can complain about how the leftists here don't condemn them enough. In doing so, you are equating them with the Nazi marchers.

Meanwhile, here's a complete log of everything you said on the forum to condemn the Charlottesville Nazis and James Fields, who committed vehicular homicide:

Error: empty set
​

But, please, continue to miss the point of my original post.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I have no idea what you’re talking about. You posted an entire missive from somebody that talked exclusively about identity politics. I then pointed to Goat’s claim that today’s conservative movement is all about identity and you post this? Why? What the hell are you talking about? And who is “you guys?”

Not identity, probably posted too much of the article but wanted to put the parts that I do not necessarily agree with either.

Main thrust is that the way the racial question gets approached by white liberals, tends to make the discussion a nonstarter. I find white liberals to be the least forgiving when it comes to the racial discussion, the writer agreed. Compare some of the jumping on people that happens around here to how Bing posts. Here is a guy who may actually experience some of the things that the white liberal posters on this board can only conjecture about and he is not 1/5 as vitriolic on this subject as some of the left leaning people are.

Maybe some of the push back on this is not "whataboutism". You had a liberal civil rights push that for 40 to 50 years was centered around the idea that we should judge a person on the content of their character as opposed to their skin color. That seems to have been abandoned by the left. White privelege person here. Yes you may live in a trailer park and not graduated from Cal and Harvard, and you may not have a position on arguably the most influential paper in this counrry's editorial board, but when that Asian girl who does says all sorts of racial things about you, well sit down and shut up Jethro, she cannot be a racist because she does not have the power you do.

I agree it is not the 1950's anymore, so while some of this "power" stuff is true, it is also true that a black guy was our President for 8 years and minorities do have many positions of power above what many whites will ever attain. That will continue to occur over time as well (well, as long as we get ahold of this intersectionality nonsense and kill it) but it is going to take time. Just like it took time for the Irish, the Italians, and the Eastern Europeans to be considered "white" by other white people.

IMO, the worst thing that we could do to stunt this process is to treat misbehavior by any individual as something less problematic or more problematic because of their race.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

What I'm about to type really applies to large swaths of right-wing discourse in the media, as well, but as I don't expect to have any actual dialogue with Tucker Carlson, I'm directing this at people who actually post here.

A fair number of conservative posters here seem genuinely obsessed with pointing out when people on the left do bad things, then equating these bad things with things that people on the right have done, which the left has complained about. Then the lefties are called hypocrites. We're hypocrites for calling someone a racist if we don't also call Sarah Jeong a racist. We're hypocrites for bemoaning white nationalist marchers if we don't also bemoan leftist protesters harassing conservatives. The problem is, these things are not equivalent.

No, I don't complain about leftist protesters acting like dicks in public. I don't much care if they harass a conservative figure walking into or out of a restaurant. I also don't complain about religious folks protesting at abortion clinics. I don't complain about them harassing women walking into or out of those clinics. Why? Because people are dicks, and people being dicks to each other doesn't really register very high on my outrage meter.

I do complain about white nationalists marching down the streets chanting racist slogans. What they represent is a level of evil far beyond protesters on either side being dicks. And yet, according to a number of posters here, the fact that I vocally oppose actual Nazis, but don't vocally oppose entitled brats with the same level of outrage, proves that I'm a raging hypocrite. According to some here, the fact that I have the gall to criticize a prominent right-wing talking head for broadcasting well-known racist dog whistle nonsense to her viewers, but can't summon up the same disgust for some leftist writer I'd barely heard of before being a troll on social media makes me a hypocrite. One poster even suggested it makes me a racist.

This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them. Not even close. These two events exist in entirely different moral universes, and by demanding that the left condemn one with the same fervor as the other implies that they are morally equivalent, which is disgusting.

But to make matters worse, these same conservative posters can't even meet their own despicable standards. Most of these posters, while outraged at the slightest offense by the left, couldn't manage more than a "ho-hum, that's terrible, I guess" at the Charlottesville Nazis, implying that they actually think the white nationalists are worthy of less moral outrage than the liberal protesters. That's beyond disgusting.

Now, some of these same posters also complain about being accused of racism regularly. While I cannot recall any instance on this forum of those posters being explicitly accused of racism, allow me to take their complaint at face value, and trust that these accusations have indeed flown at them on a regular basis. When looking at this moral bankruptcy they are displaying, this ethical universe they are constructing in which promoting and supporting racial genocide is at worst the moral equivalent of being a dick to someone else in a restaurant, quite frankly, I'm not surprised they are accused of being racist. When you can't get worked up about white supremacy, but you can get worked up about some liberal treating a white supremacist with anything less than complete respect for their right to be part of the body civic, well...

Think about it.

A huge issue with Antifa, that plays into the #NewGOP’s hands, is that they are too decentralized and get off mission quickly. They should not be protesting Ben Shapiro. They should not be harassing pseudo-intellectuals like Candace Owens (who’s really a blithering idiot) because it gives them a national audience and creates whataboutism. If Antifa would stick to counter-protesting Proud Boys and Tiki torch rallies, they’d be much more effective.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

A huge issue with Antifa, that plays into the #NewGOP’s hands, is that they are too decentralized and get off mission quickly. They should not be protesting Ben Shapiro. They should not be harassing pseudo-intellectuals like Candace Owens (who’s really a blithering idiot) because it gives them a national audience and creates whataboutism. If Antifa would stick to counter-protesting Proud Boys and Tiki torch rallies, they’d be much more effective.

That's undoubtedly true, but I really don't think it justifies the extent that the moral equivalency goes. Even the worst examples of Antifa are still nowhere near what they are being compared to in these attempts to highlight liberal hypocrisy.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Yes, we all know how much you hate Antifa, and how you feel we aren't doing enough to condemn it. That's the whole point of this thread. You are morally equating Antifa with Nazis. You have all this outrage for Antifa, for other leftist protesters. You can point out all the times they have stepped over the line and done something wrong. You can complain about how the leftists here don't condemn them enough. In doing so, you are equating them with the Nazi marchers.

Meanwhile, here's a complete log of everything you said on the forum to condemn the Charlottesville Nazis and James Fields, who committed vehicular homicide:

Error: empty set
​

But, please, continue to miss the point of my original post.

Yeah, false. No matter how often you repeat it. But here you go:

White supremacists are intellectual bores. They are small weak minded individuals who attempt to inherit the greatness of their forefathers by denying their faults all while claiming their greatness while ignoring the biggest thing that made them great. They are a nuisance to be ridiculed and beaten with the stick of righteous truth, that their skin did not make them greater. They are not the inheritors of the world because of what their ancestors did because they have totally neglected the philosophy behind it. They should be called out when necessary and shown the light when possible. White is not what makes you strong, it is how you live your life.

James Fields should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He stole a young life from her family and deprived them the opportunity to see her grow into full adulthood. He murdered a potential wife and mother. He stole the happiness from her parents that comes from having your child and grandchildren over so that you cannot only relive some of your own child growing up, but they will also miss the reflection of their parenting that their daughter would surely have had. James Fields should rot in jail and be forced to think of all the lives he ruined that day over so much bull shit. He became that which he ascribes to minorities on that day, an animal. Our only hope is that he has an American History X le conversion in jail. Perhaps he can someday atone for his sins by speaking to other disaffected young men like him who are called to the stupidity that got him where he is at.​

So do we continue on this whataboutism adventure that you were complaining about or do we have a discussion about race?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Yeah, false. No matter how often you repeat it. But here you go:

White supremacists are intellectual bores. They are small weak minded individuals who attempt to inherit the greatness of their forefathers by denying their faults all while claiming their greatness while ignoring the biggest thing that made them great. They are a nuisance to be ridiculed and beaten with the stick of righteous truth, that their skin did not make them greater. They are not the inheritors of the world because of what their ancestors did because they have totally neglected the philosophy behind it. They should be called out when necessary and shown the light when possible. White is not what makes you strong, it is how you live your life.

James Fields should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He stole a young life from her family and deprived them the opportunity to see her grow into full adulthood. He murdered a potential wife and mother. He stole the happiness from her parents that comes from having your child and grandchildren over so that you cannot only relive some of your own child growing up, but they will also miss the reflection of their parenting that their daughter would surely have had. James Fields should rot in jail and be forced to think of all the lives he ruined that day over so much bull shit. He became that which he ascribes to minorities on that day, an animal. Our only hope is that he has an American History X le conversion in jail. Perhaps he can someday atone for his sins by speaking to other disaffected young men like him who are called to the stupidity that got him where he is at.​

So do we continue on this whataboutism adventure that you were complaining about or do we have a discussion about race?

You didn't post that on this forum. You didn't post anything about James Fields on this forum.

This thread isn't for discussion about race. It's for discussion about the spate of whataboutism on this forum that I think points to a moral failing among a subset of the conservative posters here. Start your own thread if you don't like the topic. If you actually have a response to the topic I posted, please, I'm listening.

 

[IUCrazy2]

You didn't post that on this forum. You didn't post anything about James Fields on this forum.

This thread isn't for discussion about race. It's for discussion about the spate of whataboutism on this forum that I think points to a moral failing among a subset of the conservative posters here. Start your own thread if you don't like the topic. If you actually have a response to the topic I posted, please, I'm listening.

Well I am sure this will be a fruitful topic then...

My mistake for trying to engage, should have posted some snarky picture like CoH and given this topic the time it apparently deserves.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Well I am sure this will be a fruitful topic then...

My mistake for trying to engage, should have posted some snarky picture like CoH and given this topic the time it apparently deserves.

Post a thread about the moral failings of liberals in good faith, as I did in this thread, and I'll happily respond in good faith. In the meantime, please don't call what you are doing in this thread "engagement."

NB: Before you do, please note the great lengths I took to not paint all conservatives with a broad brush in this thread. I hope whatever your criticism of liberals is forthcoming, you do the same, and keep said criticism targeted at only that subset of liberals you deem deserving of such.

 

[IUCrazy2]

Post a thread about the moral failings of liberals in good faith, as I did in this thread, and I'll happily respond in good faith. In the meantime, please don't call what you are doing in this thread "engagement."

NB: Before you do, please note the great lengths I took to not paint all conservatives with a broad brush in this thread. I hope whatever your criticism of liberals is forthcoming, you do the same, and keep said criticism targeted at only that subset of liberals you deem deserving of such.

I am not going to start that thread. That was said tongue firmly in cheek, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I am not going to start that thread. That was said tongue firmly in cheek, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

It's only fruitless because you assume it is.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for this thread to bear any sort of fruit, beyond Ranger's initial reply.

At least I tried.

 

[IDontWannaLargeFarva]

"This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them"

This is where the left always goes wrong and it's unfortunate.

They see the driver in Charlottesville as the extreme right and an antifa protester as the extreme left.

If that driver loses his key's in Charlottesville and James Hodgkinson's shot is 3 inches farther up, then the R's should theoretically have the upper hand.

After all, we're the one's just lighting tiki torches and marching and you are the one's gunning down our congressmen.


The left prescribes the right's crazies as a large percentage of the total voting base. We prescribe the left's crazies as simply crazies regardless of political affiliation.

We should wait until a right winger is killed by the extreme lefty to call the scenario even.


It's funny. The left takes a similar attitude in regards to Israel. Because not enough Israeli's died while defending their border in relation to Palestinians, they must have been in the wrong. As soon as more Israeli's die, we'll know the sides are morally equal.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

"This is patently absurd, and it speaks to a moral bankruptcy among the posters making these false equivalencies. The leftist protester in the mask who sucker punched Richard Spencer committed a battery. It was wrong, both legally and morally. But it wasn't nearly as wrong as the white supremacist who deliberately drove his car into a crowd of protesters, killing one of them"

This is where the left always goes wrong and it's unfortunate.

They see the driver in Charlottesville as the extreme right and an antifa protester as the extreme left.

If that driver loses his key's in Charlottesville and James Hodgkinson's shot is 3 inches farther up, then the R's should theoretically have the upper hand.

After all, we're the one's just lighting tiki torches and marching and you are the one's gunning down our congressmen.

Jesus. Goat is the least self-aware person I've ever met.

The left prescribes the right's crazies as a large percentage of the total voting base. We prescribe the left's crazies as simply crazies regardless of political affiliation.

We should wait until a right winger is killed by the extreme lefty to call the scenario even.


It's funny. The left takes a similar attitude in regards to Israel. Because not enough Israeli's died while defending their border in relation to Palestinians, they must have been in the wrong. As soon as more Israeli's die, we'll know the sides are morally equal.

If you want to include Israel in this debate, Google King David Hotel bombing. Israelis conducted a terror campaign too, we just reward them for winning their campaign.

 

[IUCrazy2]

If you want to include Israel in this debate, Google King David Hotel bombing. Israelis conducted a terror campaign too, we just reward them for winning their campaign.

History almost always rewards the winners.

Or said differently, the winners already have their reward so when it is all said and done, you cannot really go back and change things.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

History almost always rewards the winners.

Or said differently, the winners already have their reward so when it is all said and done, you cannot really go back and change things.

True. Winners write history. The truth is Israel may have cleaner hands, but that is different than they have clean hands.

 

[IUCrazy2]

That's undoubtedly true, but I really don't think it justifies the extent that the moral equivalency goes. Even the worst examples of Antifa are still nowhere near what they are being compared to in these attempts to highlight liberal hypocrisy.

The only difference here Goat is that most conservative people lump Nazis, White Nationalists, Antifa, racists (no matter their color), et. al. into a group that we will call "deplorable". So when a guy like David Duke mouths off about White Supremacy, I say "What a douche, that guy is deplorable." And that covers everything about him. Now, when Antifa riots over a conservative speaker talking on a college campus and uses that as an excuse to hit nonracist people with tire locks and when white supremacists square off against them all dressed up in poor Renaissance cosplay and beat people, I say "What a bunch of dirtbags, going around beating on people for no good reason." And when a bunch of douches march around with tiki torches and yell insane things I say "What douchebags, we should ridicule them and ensure that they occupy the smallest piece of ideological territory in this country as possible and we beat them with superior classically liberal (all men are created equal) ideals."

So this annoys you all that we would draw a moral equivalency. Antifa violence is bad yes, but it is less bad than Nazi violence because they are fighting Nazis. As Ranger noted above, and I have noted on numerous occasions, that is not entirely true. I have said that the only high ground that Antifa holds over the white supremacists is the fact that they hate people for differences that are not immutable. I say when getting your head bashed in by a bike lock for being a white conservative or for being a black guy caught by a bunch of Klansmen, the ideology is important but it is secondary to the physical violence being aimed at you. So we are a little more okay with beating and attempting to murder people over politics than we are with doing it over race. But is that difference so big that it is worth all of this back and forth? I believe, based on the conversations here, the conservatives would say no, they all suck and the liberals would say yes, because racism is more horrible.

Same with Jeong. Conservative position, racism horrible, treat her like white people would be treated in that position. Liberal response, we have changed the definition of racism so that racism is bad, but white racism is the worst. We will then attack anyone who wants to treat people equally now because people were treated unequally in the past and our efforts to be more equal today are not 100% perfect.

Quite frankly, many on the right are probably aghast (pissed) that someone holding your position would dare to question their morality given they feel you have been brushing off bad behavior by people viewed as "left" because of your own whataboutisms. "Yeah, Jeong should not have said that but what about white racism?" "Yeah, Antifa should not violently attack people, but what about Charlottesville". My entire first post was a response to you in that you are completely blind to some of your own shortcomings while feeling completely comfortable moralizing to others.

 

[IUCrazy2]

True. Winners write history. The truth is Israel may have cleaner hands, but that is different than they have clean hands.

If you go back far enough in time, nobody can claim to have completely clean hands. No argument from me there.

 

[hoosboot]

The only difference here Goat is that most conservative people lump Nazis, White Nationalists, Antifa, racists (no matter their color), et. al. into a group that we will call "deplorable". So when a guy like David Duke mouths off about White Supremacy, I say "What a douche, that guy is deplorable." And that covers everything about him. Now, when Antifa riots over a conservative speaker talking on a college campus and uses that as an excuse to hit nonracist people with tire locks and when white supremacists square off against them all dressed up in poor Renaissance cosplay and beat people, I say "What a bunch of dirtbags, going around beating on people for no good reason." And when a bunch of douches march around with tiki torches and yell insane things I say "What douchebags, we should ridicule them and ensure that they occupy the smallest piece of ideological territory in this country as possible and we beat them with superior classically liberal (all men are created equal) ideals."

So this annoys you all that we would draw a moral equivalency. Antifa violence is bad yes, but it is less bad than Nazi violence because they are fighting Nazis. As Ranger noted above, and I have noted on numerous occasions, that is not entirely true. I have said that the only high ground that Antifa holds over the white supremacists is the fact that they hate people for differences that are not immutable. I say when getting your head bashed in by a bike lock for being a white conservative or for being a black guy caught by a bunch of Klansmen, the ideology is important but it is secondary to the physical violence being aimed at you. So we are a little more okay with beating and attempting to murder people over politics than we are with doing it over race. But is that difference so big that it is worth all of this back and forth? I believe, based on the conversations here, the conservatives would say no, they all suck and the liberals would say yes, because racism is more horrible.

Same with Jeong. Conservative position, racism horrible, treat her like white people would be treated in that position. Liberal response, we have changed the definition of racism so that racism is bad, but white racism is the worst. We will then attack anyone who wants to treat people equally now because people were treated unequally in the past and our efforts to be more equal today are not 100% perfect.

Quite frankly, many on the right are probably aghast (pissed) that someone holding your position would dare to question their morality given they feel you have been brushing off bad behavior by people viewed as "left" because of your own whataboutisms. "Yeah, Jeong should not have said that but what about white racism?" "Yeah, Antifa should not violently attack people, but what about Charlottesville". My entire first post was a response to you in that you are completely blind to some of your own shortcomings while feeling completely comfortable moralizing to others.

Take a closer look at what you did. You try to compare David Duke with the diffuse and decentralized group Antifa. How can that be a comparison? Offer up a person in Antifa and they are comparable to Duke. Offer up a group and they are comparable to Antifa. You want to compare Duke with Jeong, have at it. And then be prepared to talk about them as people who are complex. We'd all be better off if we did that. We'd all be better of if we could be like this.