VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Can you cite which leaders in Israel have said this?
The American Embassy in Israel will be moving to Jerusalem next week
- Thread starter sglowrider
- Start date
Pretty much all of them. I'm surprised you're unaware of this. But here's Bibi's take on it for you.
You need to get out more:
1) You have been so selective with your ideas -- Arafat signed a peace accord at tremendous risk to his physical and political life. You need to make an effort to understand folks who have different circumstances other than from your own prism. Let me try suggesting a word -- empathy.
2) You are a Trump supporter, so can I assume you are a pussy grabber too? You cant throw everyone into the same bucket just because of 1% or in Trump's case, Trump.
3) The level of frustration and anger needs to be addressed. What do you think tripped off these latest round of protest? Hint: Recognition of Jeruselum as the capital by the move of the embassy.
The Palestinians cant separate their emotions/frustrations/humiliation as much as you can separate your religion from your daily life.
4) One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. You think those folks who were protesting at Sharpeville were also terrorist -- unless you happen to be an Afrikaner.
You are trying to live in a black & white world when the reality of life is that its 80-90% grey.
Let me tell you something I have learnt over the years of me living/working in quite a few countries/continents.
Most people are the same. Most of us want the same things in life.
It's the small minor things like race, language, culture, religion, even food that are in reality tiny hurdles but people most the most out of it to create barriers ie tail that wags the dog.
To divide people makes select folks powerful.
All of us regardless of race, nationality, religion etc want to love, be loved, feel joy, respected and to respect, laugh, be fulfilled, wealthy in experience in what our individual lives have to offer etc. ALL OF US including the Palestinians.
Once you see this, you will be able to understand other folks better.
Ok, Pussy Grabbing Pastor?
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Erdogan reeling...
https://www.ft.com/content/e41a56d6-5855-11e8-bdb7-f6677d2e1ce8
Outline if you don't have a subscription:
https://outline.com/3PMv5v
When banks and investment funds sent senior representatives to dine with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, they probably expected the Turkish president to deliver a reassuring message about investing in his country.
But by the end of Monday’s lunch at Bloomberg’s London office, they were left wondering whether there was any longer an argument for risking their money in his country’s currency, stocks and government bonds.
The Turkish lira plumbed a new record low, while the country’s dollar-denominated 10-year yield rose more than 40 basis points to 7.08 per cent. The lira has lost 15 per cent of its value in the past three months, while the 10-year yield is up from a low of 5.27 per cent in January.
The message was uncompromising. The Turkish president, seeking re-election next month, made clear that not only was he steadfastly opposed to raising rates, he was intent on taking control of monetary policy.
How can you invest in a country when the guy doesn’t believe in basic interest rate theory?” said one person with knowledge of the discussion. “Turkey almost looks uninvestible.”
“Coming at a time when Turkey already had pretty acute vulnerabilities, Erdogan has thrown petrol on the flames,” said Paul Greer, portfolio manager for EM fixed income at Fidelity International in London.
Analysts were similarly dismayed by what were described as “astonishing” remarks by Mr Erdogan on interest rates at a private meeting at Chatham House, the international relations think-tank, earlier in the day, where he reportedly asked those present to “please learn” that low interest rates deliver low inflation.
“When you hear things like that, you really start to wonder,” said one of those present.
“There’s no hope now,” said another. “It sounds like he doesn’t listen to anyone any more.”
This is an interesting read.
A blog from a physician who is field-testing 3D tourniquets and ended up getting shot by an Israeli sniper.
A blog from a physician who is field-testing 3D tourniquets and ended up getting shot by an Israeli sniper.
Can anyone explain why Nikki Haley would walk out of the meeting as Palestinian representative was speaking? Seems rather juvenile and that she would at least want to hear what he had to say. And also why would US not want to investigate the incident? Seems like they would want to show the world that Israel was in the right, if this is what they are certain is true.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Where in the article does Bibi say he doesn't want more Muslims because too many Muslims in Israel is a threat? He did say that the Palestinians refusal to recognize Israel is a problem. My scenario was that the Palestinians would have the desire to be absorbed into Israel, to become Israelis themselves. By the way I did hear the idea you mentioned about Israelis being disconcerted about too many Muslims being in their country. But I had not read or heard any statements from officials who said this.
I didn't say anything about Muslims. I said Israel wants to ensure the state retains a Jewish majority. Its why they reject the right of return, and it's why they reject the one state solution. I'm flabbergasted that you are unaware of this important issue in Israeli politics.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...h-majority-trumps-than-human-rights-1.5811106
Actually @TheOriginalHappyGoat is correct. Whether or not Bibi has explicitly stated this, I'm not sure. But, the perception is that a one state solution provides minimal long-term benefit for the Jewish people if they consolidate with the Palestinians. They would easily become a minority rather quickly and the population discrepancy would exacerbate as there are significant birth disparities, no different than almost anywhere in the world (poorer people reproduce at much higher rates in this non-agrarian age).
A two-state solution is the only feasible scenario in my view, but it will also never happen because the Palestinians won't sign for it unless they get access to Jerusalem and the Israelis aren't willing to let that happen for security reasons.
You are flabbergasted that VPM doesn't know what the hell he's talking about?
Just a quibble. Your claim that poorer people reproduce at higher rates assumes that the Palestinians will remain poorer. Were they given full rights in a democratic state I would expect them to perform as well as the Israelis.
There are other solutions that you don't mention e.g., ethnic cleansing wherein the Palestinians are simply rousted out and dumped in, say, Jordan. The American and Israeli far right would be supportive of this, no? Maybe even more, how shall we put it politely, "brutal" solutions as well? The Palestinians have been and are increasingly dehumanized in both Israel and America...I expect that history puts more of a check on Israel than the American right will.
Do you see that among similar countries in the Middle East? Even if you assume that they will perform on par, there is a considerable ramp up period, no? I'm thinking generations in order to education and train as efficiently as they do in Israel. But, maybe I am missing something?
If Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, they would have done it already. They certainly have the means (Nukes, high-tech weaponary, etc.), so I'm not sure why this is a "solution".
You actually think Jordan would accept the Palestinians? Isn't part of their island-like isolation because of their prior meddling in Middle Eastern affairs?
Also, one would argue that their own behavior has led to plenty of these problems. Or do you not remember the frequent suicide bombings in the 90s and early 00s?
Really, all I mean is that the only check on ethnic cleansing or worse for the Palestinians is the Israeli conscience. The dynamics of ongoing dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel makes the likelihood of an absolutely terrible outcome increasingly likely. Whatever evil happens we can be sure that the Palestinians will be blamed...as those persecuted in pogroms and slaughter always blame the victims. Whatever forbearance takes place will always be credited to the moral virtue of the powerful.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
I understand all this, but was just wanting an actual quote from the higher ups in the Israeli Govt. In my scenario Palestine did not want to fight anymore, but actually wanted to become part of Israel. I was speaking about what would be the best scenario. In a peaceful Palestine that did not want to kill all the Jews one would not have to worry about how many children they have. I do realize my scenario would probably not happen. They hate the Jews and want to destroy them. You can't really go to the peace table with people who want you to die. All you can do is to fend them off which is what Israel continues to do. Obviously giving up land for peace has not worked, so you get a strong army and fight when you have to.
I think history mostly shows that this process is very slow and may not ever reach full equivalence, several obvious examples in the US alone of groups that were given "full rights" later in our history who have still not reached the point of "performing as well" as the groups who had those rights to begin with.
It's more than just that. A one state solution undermines the entire premise of Israel to begin with, regardless of whether or not you agree with its establishment in the first place. Jews becoming the minority subjects them to drastic potential changes.
I linked the Justice Minister saying it to the Knesset. That should be good enough.
As Jamie said, this issue is foundational to the very purpose of the existence of Israel.
Come on, you are better than this. Israel gets blamed all of the time. There are always two sides that cause a conflict to occur. Neither is blameless. Israel has done plenty of things to provoke and continue war. Palestine has done the same.
The point is, how do we move forward? A two-state solution seems like the only plausible option, but won't be accepted by either side because of significant differences.
You don't know what you are talking about. It's really as simple as that.
You either have a two state solution....or one state, with some type of apartheid.....with Palestinians as some sort of 2nd class citizen.
Israeli Jews will NEVER allow the Palestinians to have equal Israeli citizenship. It would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. How do you not understand something so basic to this decades long problem?
This isn't about who is more or less blameworthy it is about the fact that when those with vast power dehumanize those without any power the conditions are ripe for horrific atrocities. No people on the planet are more aware of nor have been more victimized by that combination than the Jews. The vulnerability that the Jewish people feel on account of that history informs the creation of the state of Israel--perhaps it is the central driver. But conscience is hardly any check when power is so asymmetrically allocated. A more reliable check is to empower the powerless. Historically, the U.S. has helped play that role internationally. U.S. involvement in prosecuting war criminals e.g., in Serbia or Rwanda and the threat of sanctions on those committing atrocities served as something of a deterrent. The deterrent was always diminished with respect to Israel for political reasons but the U.S. strove to balance somewhat the power imbalance. But now the right, under Trump, have abandoned it altogether.
As to how to move forward. Your solution seems as plausible as any. If any people on earth are capable of avoiding moral catastrophe I expect it is the Jewish people. Indeed, I expect that it will the Jewish diaspora in America that will play a pivotal role. That said, the odds look very long to me and longer than ever. If that horror unfolds as looks likely to me we will rightfully say that the shadow of Auschwitz is very long indeed. If it doesn't unfold it will be among the singular greatest moral achievements in the history of mankind. In either event the Jewish people will have to be their own judges...nobody else has any standing...certainly not me.
as horrible as the Nazis were to the Jews, that's now effectively ancient history, as very few who lived through that are still alive.
Jews are no longer the oppressed people, and haven't been for a long time.
and the fact they once were in times past, when almost no one from that day is still alive today, is no longer an excuse to justify becoming the oppressor or the invader.
there are many more in a lot worse situations than the Jews, so we need to get over thinking as if things are a lot different today than they are.
the Jews are now the equivalent of the pioneers in America, and the Palestinians are the equivalent of American Indians, constantly pushed off their land and treated horribly.
why wouldn't the Palestinians fight back? who wouldn't?
and in a world where one can now travel around the globe in the time it used to take to get from town to town, and where tech has replaced smoke signals, and were one or a few individuals are now capable of killing thousands in an instant, constantly forcing whole societies to want nothing but horrible things to happen to us, does not ever make us safer.
Israel needs to lay off the land grabs, and treating those they already pushed off their land horribly, as we did with the Indians.
and moving the embassy is just spitting in their face.
making life long enemies who will intensely hate you forever, and wish nothing but harm to you, never makes you safer, or is ever the right course to take.
Oh my this is a dangerous post..... why don’t you substitute “Jew” in your post with “African American” and tell me if it holds water....just an exercise. I tried it and came to a conclusion. I’m interested to see if you are honest and come to the same or begin to....rationalize.
I think your thought is one worth exploring for everyone. You very well may be right. But if it is, the logic is true for others in history also so are we ready to accept that? If not, then why do you feel this way about Jews? It creates a real introspective examination....
I'm not signing on to whatever IGW was trying to say, but your "logic" isn't logical at all. Wildly different situations. The Nazis were destroyed, and the Jews by and large fled to Israel. In various European nations, they continued to be oppressed for a long time. The plight of African-Americans is more analogous to the Jews in, say, Ukraine, than the ones who survived Nazi Germany and emigrated to Israel.
But since you disagree with me, you felt it necessary to respond? Interesting.... You want me on that wall....You need me on that wall
Hoosier_Hack has only one eye and one ear. Ergo, he sees and hears only one thing.
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Of course, you don't.I am not sure what you are referring to and I am actually afraid to ask.
We are speaking Lucian language!
Per Damon Linker: "If Israel isn't careful, it will end up committing acts that will look even more like massacres than this horrible event. To keep that from happening, it needs its true friends to hold it to higher standards."
Israel has been accused of this by people like Linker since it declared independence. It will continue to be so accused. No matter the facts, Linker and his ilk will blame Israel because it is fashionable and gains the approval of the right people. Because he'd much rather pretend to mourn dead Jews than to see them defend themselves.
Israel has been accused of this by people like Linker since it declared independence. It will continue to be so accused. No matter the facts, Linker and his ilk will blame Israel because it is fashionable and gains the approval of the right people. Because he'd much rather pretend to mourn dead Jews than to see them defend themselves.
A lot of folks who thought moving the embassy to Jerusalem would lead to increased violence got it wrong.
