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Pledgemygrievance

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If next year is judgment day after 4 years of spinning our wheels in deep mud, you have to wonder just how high the bar would have to be set.

And if we think recruiting has been suspect until now, just wait until we have a coach out there trying to sell the program when everybody — the recruit, his parents, his HS and AAU coaches, competing coaches, even our own coaches — knows that he’s a zombie coach who is on borrowed time because of financial limitations.

I still think back to Fred Glass on this and just shake my head. First he made it clear that 19-20 wasn’t a make-or-break year for Archie, basically giving him carte blanche to have yet another mediocre season without fearing his job...and then, as if to put emphasis on it to silence Archie’s growing chorus of critics, announcing that he’d be retiring in May...making it logistically impossible to even consider a coaching change.

Thanks Fred. Heckuva job with our premier athletic program.
I think the bar will be set around top 4-5 of B1G and S16 barring anything crazy.

recruiting-wise, he hired Kenya to address that. So, it’ll be interesting to see what happens from now until next fall
 

Cavanagh.13

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I disagree on Race and IU's overall talent. Race, Armaan, and TJD are all guys who would start for almost every team in the league. Race's advanced metrics are pretty good. For whatever reason there are very few teams with two elite big guys in the conference. Trayce and Race are probably the best 4/ 5 combo in the league, besides Michigan depending on who you pair with Dickinson.
I would argue Potter Reevers better combo, Young I think is better than Race for OSU pair him with Sueing and Lidell, better combo. Williams Wheeler better combo record would say.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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I think the bar will be set around top 4-5 of B1G and S16 barring anything crazy.

recruiting-wise, he hired Kenya to address that. So, it’ll be interesting to see what happens from now until next fall

If that’s all the higher the bar in a gift 5th year (that he hasn’t earned by any reasonable standard) in order to be granted a 6th, then I think it will be official that the powers that be have thrown in the towel on having a men’s basketball program that is even moderately competitive in the B10, let alone anything approaching national prominence.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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If that’s all the higher the bar in a gift 5th year (that he hasn’t earned by any reasonable standard) in order to be granted a 6th, then I think it will be official that the powers that be have thrown in the towel on having a men’s basketball program that is even moderately competitive in the B10, let alone anything approaching national prominence.

And I would add to this that they don’t mind paying to have a nationally prominent program...they just don’t have much in the way of expectations of actually having one.

Just finish in the top third of the conference and win 2 tournament games in one year out of 5, and you’re good to go!
 

go_iu

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And I would add to this that they don’t mind paying to have a nationally prominent program...they just don’t have much in the way of expectations of actually having one.

Just finish in the top third of the conference and win 2 tournament games in one year out of 5, and you’re good to go!
Bingo, they're happy with the perception and we're constantly rebuilding. News of the day, the sweater wearing RMK donors are probably not happy, getting old like me, and they're not going to pay out unless they do something to improve the product. I really thought AM was saved by COVID, but I'm not so sure anymore, it's reaching a boiling point. He really needs to go. Recruiting is dead though, and there's no F'n way this guy deserves an extension. It's when, not if
 

Pledgemygrievance

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If that’s all the higher the bar in a gift 5th year (that he hasn’t earned by any reasonable standard) in order to be granted a 6th, then I think it will be official that the powers that be have thrown in the towel on having a men’s basketball program that is even moderately competitive in the B10, let alone anything approaching national prominence.
I’m just speculating what an objective Dolson would do. Doesn’t mean he’ll get a 5 year extension. But if he far exceeds that, maybe he will get a long extension.

Either way - I think that would be the minimum. Anything less and he’s probably gone.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Bingo, they're happy with the perception and we're constantly rebuilding. News of the day, the sweater wearing RMK donors are probably not happy, getting old like me, and they're not going to pay out unless they do something to improve the product. I really thought AM was saved by COVID, but I'm not so sure anymore, it's reaching a boiling point. He really needs to go. Recruiting is dead though, and there's no F'n way this guy deserves an extension. It's when, not if

Well, I’ll be surprised if he’s fired after this season, whatever happens from here on out. I certainly agree that he should be. In fact, I’d guess that he probably would’ve been had the university and athletic department not had to deal with the financial fallout from COVID, even in spite of the buyout amount.

But if it’s true that all he has to do next year is finish in the top third of the conference and get to the 2nd weekend of the tournament to go forward, after 4 years of futility, then we may as well consider ourselves Minnesota.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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I’m just speculating what an objective Dolson would do. Doesn’t mean he’ll get a 5 year extension. But if he far exceeds that, maybe he will get a long extension.

Either way - I think that would be the minimum. Anything less and he’s probably gone.

I’ll tell you where my bar would be in a gift 5th year that he hadn’t earned in his first 4: B10 conference champs and a top 2 tourney seed.
 
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Pledgemygrievance

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I’ll tell you where my bar would be in a gift 5th year that he hadn’t earned in his first 4: B10 conference champs and a top 2 tourney seed.
Don’t disagree. Archie’s model of get old and stay old, in theory, would put them in the top part of the conference and stay there for as long as he’s here. No major rebuild seasons, etc. The blueprint is to build it, then sustain it.

He hasn’t obviously done that and questionable if he’s building it, but he’s said this from Day 1 and next year will be the year he’s judged.
 

snarlcakes

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I would argue Potter Reevers better combo, Young I think is better than Race for OSU pair him with Sueing and Lidell, better combo. Williams Wheeler better combo record would say.
.
Did you look at Reuvers numbers? He's been awful. It's one of the main reasons Wisconsin hasn't been as good this season. Wheeler is also terrible. He doesn't even start for Purdue? Keep the afternoon bong rips to a minimum:).

I think Young and Race are a toss up. They have very similar numbers. I'd still give the edge to TJD and Race, but I understand if someone likes Liddell and Young more.
 

Cavanagh.13

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Did you look at Reuvers numbers? He's been awful. It's one of the main reasons Wisconsin hasn't been as good this season. Wheeler is also terrible. He doesn't even start for Purdue? Keep the afternoon bong rips to a minimum:).

I think Young and Race are a toss up. They have very similar numbers. I'd still give the edge to TJD and Race, but I understand if someone likes Liddell and Young more.

Reuvers doesn’t start for Wisconsin either. Still think they are better combos. That’s why they are top 25 teams and we are bottom half of the B1G.
 

fkfootball

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Hes gone
Its just a matter of when Dolson has the balls to pull the trigger. The AD at Boston College fired their coach 2 weeks ago. That AD is considered to be one of the top AD's in the business. His name is Pat Kraft, who we should have hired.

Kraft wanted the IU job. I know one of his friends that worked with him at IU. McRobbie gave the job to a guy that reminds him of Fred Glass.
 
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T.M.P.

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Someone else posted this SI story earlier, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Some My Two Cents: Was This Finally the Loss That Archie Miller Can't Survive?
Four years into the Archie Miller era at Indiana, another troublesome home loss as a big favorite is just further proof that this doesn't work anymore. It's time for a change.
TOM BREWUPDATED:FEB 21, 2021ORIGINAL:FEB 21, 2021
BLOOMINGTON, Ind. – Archie Miller was born and raised in a basketball family in Pennsylvania, played his college ball in North Carolina and cut his coaching teeth in Ohio. How does all that fit in Indiana?
It doesn't. Not anymore.
Archie Miller is Indiana's beleaguered basketball coach right now, but for how much longer? He hasn't had a shred of success in Bloomington, just a few moments here and there that get spun a certain way, but then disappear like a bubble floating in the soft wind.
This is clearly not working, and the four-year Archie Miller experiment took another major blow on Saturday when Indiana lost 78-71 to Michigan State's worst team of the century. Think about that for a minute. It's the fourth home game Indiana has lost this season as a big favorite. Think about that, too.
But it's how they lost that's the problem, because it crystalizes everything that's wrong with Indiana basketball right now. They can't shoot and they can't defend consistently. In Indiana!! Four years later, it was supposed to be different.
It's not.
This is 2017 all over again, and the ugly finish to the crumbling Tom Crean era that really showed a lot of promise at one time.
This is 2009 all over again, and the we-told-you-so thrashing to the end of the out-of-control Kelvin Sampson era. (That small dash of Dan Dakich doesn't count. That was the poster-child for interim.)
This is 2006 again, and the sad ending to the Mike Davis era, a nice man who was in over his head, his biggest fault being that he took a team to a national championship game when most people wanted him fired, and that made it hard to do.

And this is, dare I say, 2000 all over again. Yeah, I'll blaspheme and go there. The Bob Knight era needed to come to and end, and it did.
And doesn't this Archie Miller era need to come to an end now, too?

Indiana coach Archie Miller complains about a call during the Hoosiers' loss to Michigan State on Saturday. (USA TODAY Sports)
So how did we get to this point?
I will be the first to admit that I don't go down the "fire the coach'' road very often. Forty-something years of doing this, "hardly at all'' describes my thinking best, because it's completely counterproductive.
When I started covering Indiana again for Sports Illustrated two years ago, I would say the sky is blue and Indiana fans would comment with "fire Archie Miller.'' I would say Mother Bear's is my favorite pizza and you would say "fire Archie Miller.'' I wasn't going to join that rant, for many, many reasons. I just wanted to enjoy sunny days, eat my pizza and write about basketball.
And I haven't joined the rant. Until now.
I haven't ranted mostly because it's a waste of breath. Archie Miller wasn't going to be fired in August of 2019. And truth be told, he didn't get fired on Feb. 20, 2021 either, which was, you'd be happy to know, the five-year anniversary of the last time Indiana beat Purdue.
But it's become abundantly clear that the odds of him finishing out his seven-year contract at Indiana are skyrocketing. Now it seems it's just a matter of "when,'' not a matter of ''if.''

The loss Saturday dropped Indiana to 7-8 in the Big Ten and 12-10 overall. Sure, there are still games to be played – more on that in a minute – but in Miller's four years, he has never had a winning record in the Big Ten. Not once. When you coach at Indiana, you talk about winning Big Ten TITLES, not just Big Ten games. He's just 33-40 in conference regular season games, and done nothing in the Big Ten tournament, either.
There have been no NCAA Tournament games either, with that asterisk hanging over Miller that a bid was likely coming before COVID canceled the tournament. That's not Indiana basketball, either. And in the four remaining games this season – home against Michigan and on the road at Rutgers, Michigan State and Purdue – Indiana will be the underdog in each of them.
Odds are that Indiana has already won its last game this year. Jeez, let that sink in, too.
But this is history that you already know. What you don't know is my reasoning for why we've reached this point today, and why it's finally time for me to say this isn't going to work. There is no way this can succeed. Long-term success for Archie Miller at Indiana is something I just can't picture anymore. That's become clear.
Opinions that run counter to the norm
I have a lot of takes on Archie Miller that will differ from most. But the individual complaints never take away from the fact that he is the head coach at Indiana, and the buck absolutely stops with him.

Let's look at three issues that get discussed the most – talent, scheme and player development.
So let's start with this fallacy first, that Indiana has a ton of talent and Miller is destroying it. That's so not true. There's really not that much elite talent there. As I said, the buck stops with Miller, and he's the reason why the talent level is what it is. Recruiting is king in college basketball, and despite his enormous recruiting budget, he hasn't delivered. He's lost too many big-time recruiting fights.
Trayce Jackson-Davis is the only true NBA prospect on this roster. If you gathered 14 guys to do an all-Big Ten fantasy league, you'd have to go several rounds before another IU player was picked after Trayce. Just about every night in the Big Ten, the other team has better guards, better wing players. I'd take Jackson-Davis over his matchup in the post most nights, but it literally stops there. And it's not even close, outside of Armaan Franklin on a few nights. Race Thompson plays hard, but does he start on many other Big Ten teams? No way.
A lot has been made about Miller recruiting three straight Indiana Mr. Basketball stars in Romeo Langford, Jackson-Davis and now Anthony Leal, and that's all good. It is good, because it's never been done before. But in each year, that's just one guy. Romeo was hurt and utilized in the wrong way, Jackson-Davis has been A-minus good with a few flaws still in his game and Leal is still very much an unknown. He was ranked No. 152 in the country as a recruit, not No 1 or No. 5 or No. 2. He was never supposed to provide an immediate impact, and he hasn't.

The biggest criticism of Miller is his scheme. Almost no one likes his offense, and hand is raised there, too. Big Ten defenses are so good that they all know the Hoosiers' base plays as well as they do. It's simplistic, and easy to cover. All those handoffs generate nothing.
It's also not enough most nights, clearly. But it gets us back to the players, too. What Indiana sorely lacks this year are perimeter guys who can knock down threes with regularity. That's on Miller and recruiting, true, but there needs to be blame on the players too for not getting the job done. There's a disconnect there between scheme, execution and results, and there really is plenty of blame to go around.
Fans make me laugh when they wonder why they don't practice shooting more, but the fact is that they do. A good backstory from this year is that practices have been better now than at any time in Miller's four years, because of the work ethic of this group of players and the bad apples and lazy practice players that are no longer in the locker room.
You can question the talent level of this group, but you can't question their effort. Trust me on that. They work, especially while locked up in a COVID-infused bubble. It's just that they can work as hard as they want, but it's hard to run an offense where the defense already has you figured out and no one on the roster can create their own shot.

Lastly, player development has to be discussed. Right now, there are only three players on this roster who are getting better. Jackson-Davis was projected as a star, and he's been good, but he can be even better. There is, as Miller often says, another gear there. We saw that Saturday with his 34 points, but he needs to be coached even harder.
Race Thompson has gotten better in his four years, and Armaan Franklin has made a nice jump this year. That's good, and admirable. But the rest of the roster is no better today than it was at the start of the season, and guards like Al Durham and Rob Phinisee have had so many bad nights that the Hoosiers literally have no chance of winning on the nights they play poorly.
And that brings us to this freshman class. Because three of the four are Indiana kids – Leal, Trey Galloway and Khristian Lander – we all already know them very well. We like them. They are great kids, from great families. We've seen play for years, and when you add the athletic Jordan Geromino to the mix, it's all good.
Or is it?
When it comes to player development, you have to wonder – where it is? We haven't see any improvement in them through the course of the season. Why is that? And doesn't that absolutely fall on Miller?

Of course it does.
Against Michigan State, the freshman didn't score any points at all. Geronimo didn't play, Leal had a turnover as was yanked after two minutes, Lander shot another airball that missed by two feet and then had a bad pass turnover and was pulled. Galloway played nine minutes and missed both shots.
Purdue's freshmen, playing at Nebraska on the same day, outscored Indiana's rookies 36-0. A few weeks ago, they had 51 points in a game on the same day that Indiana's freshmen were shut out, too.
Player development is key when you don't bring in a bunch of stud recruits. Tom Crean's teams got good when 140-ish recruits like Victor Oladipo and Will Sheehey became huge contributors along with the five-stars Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell.
Miller hasn't done that. Rob Phinisee is no better now than he was as a freshman. Al Durham is no better either, even though he has occasional moments. Indiana quite literally has no consistent perimeter shooters on this roster. It's Indiana, where shooters grow on trees.
And that all comes back to Miller and recruiting. Watch Miller's offense when Devonte Green was knocking down threes. Damn effective. Even Robert Johnson made it work in Miller's first year. But they are the only two guys to make 50 or more threes in a season.

I still do think that Indiana's freshmen will develop into perimeter threats at some point, but they aren't there now. Imagine, for instance, if Purdue's Sasha Stefanovic, the junior from Crown Point, Ind., was on this team, or someone like him. That shooting threat would easily have led to two or three more wins this year. And last year, too. That's the common thread on what's been missing with this team – shooters.
Archie Miller never once tried to recruit Sasha Stefanovic. He's made 134 threes in his career so far. Indiana could have used that. Just one player like that probably saves Archie Miller's job.

Indiana coach Archie Miller shouts instructions to Indiana guard Al Durham (1) during the Hoosiers' 78-71 loss to Michigan State. (USA TODAY Sports)
So where do we go from here?
It's time for the Archie Miller era to end. It hasn't been good enough for four years now, and if Jackson-Davis leaves for the pros, the Hoosiers aren't even a top-10 team in the Big Ten next season. That's bottom four, folks.
The present stinks, but the future looks even worse. He's losing far too many important recruiting battles, especially in-state now. Trey Kaufman and Caleb Furst are both going to Purdue. All of the top-10 players in the state are going elsewhere.
Purdue is way ahead of Indiana right now, and that shouldn't be the case, not wit all of Miller's resources.

The elephant in the room, of course, is Miller's seven-year contract where the buyout is still VERY expensive after this fourth year. It's much more reasonable after year five, but can we really go through this for another year, especially with no light at the end of the tunnel?
Look around the Big Ten. Illinois and Ohio State hired coaches the same year Indiana did, and they are both top-five teams and national title contenders. Michigan hired Juwan Howard two years ago, and they are No. 1 seed, a title contender and have the highest-ranked recruiting class in 2021. (Indiana is No. 78, dead last in the Big Ten.) Rutgers is on the rise, Michigan State will be back strong, of course.
In title talk, Indiana is a non-factor.
So the question is, do the high-roller boosters of this program really want to pony up for Miller's buyout now, plus the cash it would take to hire a top-level coach after Miller is gone? Or do they give him another year, even though we're pretty sure what that 2022 result is going to be, too.
In any case, we've reached that time for new Indiana athletic director Scott Dolson to make a decision. This hasn't worked and it's time for a change. Pandemic or no, this isn't Indiana basketball. Just trying to be .500 in the Big Ten isn't enough. Just hoping and praying for an NCAA Tournament bid isn't enough.

Scott Dolson knows that too, because he wears an Indiana national championship ring himself.
Archie Miller has had time. His past hasn't been great, the present isn't good enough and the future looks kind of scary.
It's time – somehow and some way on some kind of time frame – to move on from the Archie Miller era.

Indiana coach Archie Miller buries his head in his hands after a turnover. (USA TODAY Sports)
Related stories on Indiana basketball
  • SPARTANS RALLY, BEAT HOOSIERS: Indiana blew a nine-point second half lead and lost at home to Michigan State 78-71 on Saturday. CLICK HERE
  • EAST LANSING GAME SET: Indiana's postponed game in East Lansing against Michigan State has been rescheduled to Tuesday, March 2. CLICK HERE
  • PHINISEE GETTING MIND RIGHT: Indiana guard Rob Phinisee tends to think too much when he's struggling, but he was great Wedneday night against Minnesota when he was playing free and easy. CLICK HERE
  • INDIANA NCAA TOURNAMENT PROJECTIONS: The Hoosiers are currently projected to be a "last four in" team in the NCAA Tournament. CLICK HERE
  • UPATED INDIANA SCHEDULE: Here is the complete Indiana basketball schedule, including all the latest updates and links to every game story and Tom Brew columns from throughout the season. CLICK HERE

BY
TOM BREW
Tom Brew is an award-winning journalist who has worked at some of America's finest newspapers as a reporter and editor, including the Tampa Bay (Fla.) Times, the Indianapolis Star and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. He has covered college sports in the digital platform for the past five years, including the last two as publisher of HoosiersNow at Sports Illustrated.
The part titled "Opinions that run counter to the norm" is dead on.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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He hasn’t obviously done that and questionable if he’s building it, but he’s said this from Day 1 and next year will be the year he’s judged.

Questionable? I don’t think it’s at all questionable whether or not he’s “built it.” He hasn’t. Or, at least, he’s built something analogous to Tom Hanks’ house in “The Money Pit.”

To many, this was supposed to be the payoff year — and yet we’re sitting at 9th in the conference with an overall record not far from .500. Recruiting has never been great, but it’s worse now that his seat’s perceived as being warm.

Anyway, I agree he’s probably going to get another year. But not for the reason you want a coach to get another year. And because it’s basically a grace year that he’ll get because of COVID, I’d say the bar should be that much higher.

But is there cause to be optimistic that next year will be the Godot we’ve all been patiently waiting for? I don’t think so. It seems more likely to just be more rail cars coming off the tracks.
 
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OrlandoHoosier

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Dude you must be a Purdue fan. You’ve been lobbying for weeks that he “won’t get fired.” It sounds like you don’t want him to either...
Hell, if I was a Purdue fan (i am NOT though), I would definitely want Archie to stay at IU for a long time. I mean Painter owns him and will own him for several more years if he stays. He is taking IU no where fast and needs to be gone ASAP!
 

Birnk403

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I’m just speculating what an objective Dolson would do. Doesn’t mean he’ll get a 5 year extension. But if he far exceeds that, maybe he will get a long extension.

Either way - I think that would be the minimum. Anything less and he’s probably gone.
I’m curious why you believe that would be the “minimum” . . .
 

ndhuntington

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Article is dead on we can use Big Ten Network money to get rid of Archie every year its around 90million lower this year but thats what Maryland and Rutgers have done in the past to hire coaches.
 
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Article is dead on we can use Big Ten Network money to get rid of Archie every year its around 90million lower this year but thats what Maryland and Rutgers have done in the past to hire coaches.
Right, IU has no plans for that money. Every year, they just put it in the bank in case they need to fire some people.
 

Pledgemygrievance

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I’m curious why you believe that would be the “minimum” . . .
Completely speculating. Shows some progress. Is realistic. Etc.

Dolson isn’t going to say “you have to make F4 or you’re out”. Nor will he say “if you’re above .500 we’ll hammer out an extension”.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Kraft wanted the IU job. I know one of his friends that worked with him at IU. McRobbie gave the job to a guy that reminds him of Fred Glass.

Well, I don't have any beef with Dolson. I get that he was considered the "heir apparent" -- which at least gives the appearance that he was a continuation of Glass. But that's not fair to him.

His involvement in Indiana athletics goes back a long, long way. He went from being a student manager in the Knight era to working for Tim Knight to the Varsity Club in the late 80s. And he's climbed the ladder at IUB ever since -- through several presidents and several ADs. And everybody I've talked to who has interactions with the athletic department speaks highly of him -- which, if you think about it, says a lot about a guy considering the whole Knight schism and what's transpired since (the Sampson debacle, etc.).

As for Pat Kraft firing Jim Christian mid-season, I'm not all that impressed. Granted, Kraft just came on the job last summer. But Christian was stinking it up at BC for years. He lasted 6.5 years, despite a dismal final winning percentage of .371 and an ACC winning percentage of .217. The fact that he lasted as long as he did, faring as poorly as he did, is a great example of how not to handle a major sports program. You don't just keep waiting for things to magically get better -- because they usually don't. And the farther you let yourself sink down that hole, the harder it will be to get out.

I don't know all the circumstances there. Given that Kraft was just hired in July probably explains why Christian was still on the job come September. But, here again, the timing of filling of an AD position is going to have a bearing on their coaching positions. No way could Kraft have fired Christian in July -- but firing a coach mid-season is usually something schools try to avoid, if possible.

In our case, Fred Glass (and, I'd assume, McRobbie) was dead set that Archie was going to get a 4th year. And the timing of Glass' retirement absolutely shut the door on any possibility of replacing him. And now, because of COVID, we're likely stuck with him for another year...despite things swirling down the commode right in front of our eyes.
 

Pledgemygrievance

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Questionable? I don’t think it’s at all questionable whether or not he’s “built it.” He hasn’t. Or, at least, he’s built something analogous to Tom Hanks’ house in “The Money Pit.”

To many, this was supposed to be the payoff year — and yet we’re sitting at 9th in the conference with an overall record not far from .500. Recruiting has never been great, but it’s worse now that his seat’s perceived as being warm.

Anyway, I agree he’s probably going to get another year. But not for the reason you want a coach to get another year. And because it’s basically a grace year that he’ll get because of COVID, I’d say the bar should be that much higher.

But is there cause to be optimistic that next year will be the Godot we’ve all been patiently waiting for? I don’t think so. It seems more likely to just be more rail cars coming off the tracks.
One can argue the cupboard is not bare. Promising freshman class. Good sophomore class. Stewart ready to go next year. Hunter and Race back.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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One can argue the cupboard is not bare. Promising freshman class. Good sophomore class. Stewart ready to go next year. Hunter and Race back.

I realize that we'll have familiar names on the roster next year. It's not like I'm having nightmares of Devan Dumes and Bobby Capobianco taking the floor at first tip-off.

But surely you realize this isn't an either/or thing. The question isn't whether the cupboard is bare or stocked. The question is whether or not it's going to be stocked well-enough to be a good Big Ten team. I didn't think we would be this year (though I admit that I thought we'd be better than we are) and, as of right now, I suspect it'll be less so next year.

But (a) hope springs eternal (what choice do we have?), and (b) I guess there's the X factor this year of the wild-west transfer situation...such that we might see a lot more roster turnover than we typically do. And maybe we'll rid ourselves of some problems and gain ourselves some solutions. Who knows?

Whatever the case, it's gotten incredibly hard to have any confidence that Archie is up to the task of producing a winner at Indiana.
 

Baller23Boogie

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Reuvers doesn’t start for Wisconsin either. Still think they are better combos. That’s why they are top 25 teams and we are bottom half of the B1G.

We are not top 25 because they have better big men than us. They have better guards then we have.

Our guards are inconsistent. When they are on, we play with anyone. When they are bad, we are absolutely horrible. But our bigs are the reason why we are generally in games.

Our guards are what is holding us back.
 

Sobchak_Security

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Maybe. I’m not going to defend his roster management in general.

But I would point out that several of the more successful programs on the recent college basketball landscape — Villanova, Virginia, Gonzaga, Texas Tech — have done it without rosters full of 5-stars.

Moreover, whether because of talent or player development or something else, some of his recruiting wins have become players that just weren’t consistently helpful. As one example, there have been times where I’ve thought Rob Phinisee was a better player in the first half of his freshman year than he is as a junior. So that leads me to think the talent is there, but for whatever reason the performance isn’t.
Look at it this way, if other coaches were putting together a roster of players from the B1G, how many of our guys do you suppose would get licked
Maybe. I’m not going to defend his roster management in general.

But I would point out that several of the more successful programs on the recent college basketball landscape — Villanova, Virginia, Gonzaga, Texas Tech — have done it without rosters full of 5-stars.

Moreover, whether because of talent or player development or something else, some of his recruiting wins have become players that just weren’t consistently helpful. As one example, there have been times where I’ve thought Rob Phinisee was a better player in the first half of his freshman year than he is as a junior. So that leads me to think the talent is there, but for whatever reason the performance isn’t.
Sure. You don’t have to get 5-stars to be successful. But the players you do get have to be able to play at the level you want to compete at. We don’t have enough players that are top of the B1G level guys. I could careless how many stars they have. Bottom line this group hasn’t performed well for any extended period of time. Just a few decent performances here and there.

And it’s going to get Archie fired.
 

Sobchak_Security

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I'm just a realist....
He's not going anywhere..Maybe he gets the come to jesus talk this summer.
But two major donors I know say..He's getting another year..
“Maybe he gets the come to Jesus talk this summer”

How do you people come up with this stuff?? You honestly think he’s sandbagging waiting to be told it’s time to win??
 
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Al Bino

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I still think back to Fred Glass on this and just shake my head. First he made it clear that 19-20 wasn’t a make-or-break year for Archie, basically giving him carte blanche to have yet another mediocre season without fearing his job...and then, as if to put emphasis on it to silence Archie’s growing chorus of critics, announcing that he’d be retiring in May...making it logistically impossible to even consider a coaching change.

Thanks Fred. Heckuva job with our premier athletic program.

I think I have asked you this before but...

SO, you think if FG wouldn't have said what you object to and Archie thinks he might get fired, he suddenly becomes a better coach and IU wins more games? You REALLY believe that scenario?

You don't think that Archie isn't HYPER competitive? To the point that no one could put more pressure on him that he does to himself?
 
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.Gerdis

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You don't think that Archie isn't HYPER competitive? To the point that no one could put more pressure on him that he does to himself?

I have no doubt that you are right, and that it is has been hurting the team since day 1.
 

McNutt76

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Someone else posted this SI story earlier, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Some My Two Cents: Was This Finally the Loss That Archie Miller Can't Survive?
Four years into the Archie Miller era at Indiana, another troublesome home loss as a big favorite is just further proof that this doesn't work anymore. It's time for a change.
TOM BREWUPDATED:FEB 21, 2021ORIGINAL:FEB 21, 2021
BLOOMINGTON, Ind. – Archie Miller was born and raised in a basketball family in Pennsylvania, played his college ball in North Carolina and cut his coaching teeth in Ohio. How does all that fit in Indiana?
It doesn't. Not anymore.
Archie Miller is Indiana's beleaguered basketball coach right now, but for how much longer? He hasn't had a shred of success in Bloomington, just a few moments here and there that get spun a certain way, but then disappear like a bubble floating in the soft wind.
This is clearly not working, and the four-year Archie Miller experiment took another major blow on Saturday when Indiana lost 78-71 to Michigan State's worst team of the century. Think about that for a minute. It's the fourth home game Indiana has lost this season as a big favorite. Think about that, too.
But it's how they lost that's the problem, because it crystalizes everything that's wrong with Indiana basketball right now. They can't shoot and they can't defend consistently. In Indiana!! Four years later, it was supposed to be different.
It's not.
This is 2017 all over again, and the ugly finish to the crumbling Tom Crean era that really showed a lot of promise at one time.
This is 2009 all over again, and the we-told-you-so thrashing to the end of the out-of-control Kelvin Sampson era. (That small dash of Dan Dakich doesn't count. That was the poster-child for interim.)
This is 2006 again, and the sad ending to the Mike Davis era, a nice man who was in over his head, his biggest fault being that he took a team to a national championship game when most people wanted him fired, and that made it hard to do.

And this is, dare I say, 2000 all over again. Yeah, I'll blaspheme and go there. The Bob Knight era needed to come to and end, and it did.
And doesn't this Archie Miller era need to come to an end now, too?

Indiana coach Archie Miller complains about a call during the Hoosiers' loss to Michigan State on Saturday. (USA TODAY Sports)
So how did we get to this point?
I will be the first to admit that I don't go down the "fire the coach'' road very often. Forty-something years of doing this, "hardly at all'' describes my thinking best, because it's completely counterproductive.
When I started covering Indiana again for Sports Illustrated two years ago, I would say the sky is blue and Indiana fans would comment with "fire Archie Miller.'' I would say Mother Bear's is my favorite pizza and you would say "fire Archie Miller.'' I wasn't going to join that rant, for many, many reasons. I just wanted to enjoy sunny days, eat my pizza and write about basketball.
And I haven't joined the rant. Until now.
I haven't ranted mostly because it's a waste of breath. Archie Miller wasn't going to be fired in August of 2019. And truth be told, he didn't get fired on Feb. 20, 2021 either, which was, you'd be happy to know, the five-year anniversary of the last time Indiana beat Purdue.
But it's become abundantly clear that the odds of him finishing out his seven-year contract at Indiana are skyrocketing. Now it seems it's just a matter of "when,'' not a matter of ''if.''

The loss Saturday dropped Indiana to 7-8 in the Big Ten and 12-10 overall. Sure, there are still games to be played – more on that in a minute – but in Miller's four years, he has never had a winning record in the Big Ten. Not once. When you coach at Indiana, you talk about winning Big Ten TITLES, not just Big Ten games. He's just 33-40 in conference regular season games, and done nothing in the Big Ten tournament, either.
There have been no NCAA Tournament games either, with that asterisk hanging over Miller that a bid was likely coming before COVID canceled the tournament. That's not Indiana basketball, either. And in the four remaining games this season – home against Michigan and on the road at Rutgers, Michigan State and Purdue – Indiana will be the underdog in each of them.
Odds are that Indiana has already won its last game this year. Jeez, let that sink in, too.
But this is history that you already know. What you don't know is my reasoning for why we've reached this point today, and why it's finally time for me to say this isn't going to work. There is no way this can succeed. Long-term success for Archie Miller at Indiana is something I just can't picture anymore. That's become clear.
Opinions that run counter to the norm
I have a lot of takes on Archie Miller that will differ from most. But the individual complaints never take away from the fact that he is the head coach at Indiana, and the buck absolutely stops with him.

Let's look at three issues that get discussed the most – talent, scheme and player development.
So let's start with this fallacy first, that Indiana has a ton of talent and Miller is destroying it. That's so not true. There's really not that much elite talent there. As I said, the buck stops with Miller, and he's the reason why the talent level is what it is. Recruiting is king in college basketball, and despite his enormous recruiting budget, he hasn't delivered. He's lost too many big-time recruiting fights.
Trayce Jackson-Davis is the only true NBA prospect on this roster. If you gathered 14 guys to do an all-Big Ten fantasy league, you'd have to go several rounds before another IU player was picked after Trayce. Just about every night in the Big Ten, the other team has better guards, better wing players. I'd take Jackson-Davis over his matchup in the post most nights, but it literally stops there. And it's not even close, outside of Armaan Franklin on a few nights. Race Thompson plays hard, but does he start on many other Big Ten teams? No way.
A lot has been made about Miller recruiting three straight Indiana Mr. Basketball stars in Romeo Langford, Jackson-Davis and now Anthony Leal, and that's all good. It is good, because it's never been done before. But in each year, that's just one guy. Romeo was hurt and utilized in the wrong way, Jackson-Davis has been A-minus good with a few flaws still in his game and Leal is still very much an unknown. He was ranked No. 152 in the country as a recruit, not No 1 or No. 5 or No. 2. He was never supposed to provide an immediate impact, and he hasn't.

The biggest criticism of Miller is his scheme. Almost no one likes his offense, and hand is raised there, too. Big Ten defenses are so good that they all know the Hoosiers' base plays as well as they do. It's simplistic, and easy to cover. All those handoffs generate nothing.
It's also not enough most nights, clearly. But it gets us back to the players, too. What Indiana sorely lacks this year are perimeter guys who can knock down threes with regularity. That's on Miller and recruiting, true, but there needs to be blame on the players too for not getting the job done. There's a disconnect there between scheme, execution and results, and there really is plenty of blame to go around.
Fans make me laugh when they wonder why they don't practice shooting more, but the fact is that they do. A good backstory from this year is that practices have been better now than at any time in Miller's four years, because of the work ethic of this group of players and the bad apples and lazy practice players that are no longer in the locker room.
You can question the talent level of this group, but you can't question their effort. Trust me on that. They work, especially while locked up in a COVID-infused bubble. It's just that they can work as hard as they want, but it's hard to run an offense where the defense already has you figured out and no one on the roster can create their own shot.

Lastly, player development has to be discussed. Right now, there are only three players on this roster who are getting better. Jackson-Davis was projected as a star, and he's been good, but he can be even better. There is, as Miller often says, another gear there. We saw that Saturday with his 34 points, but he needs to be coached even harder.
Race Thompson has gotten better in his four years, and Armaan Franklin has made a nice jump this year. That's good, and admirable. But the rest of the roster is no better today than it was at the start of the season, and guards like Al Durham and Rob Phinisee have had so many bad nights that the Hoosiers literally have no chance of winning on the nights they play poorly.
And that brings us to this freshman class. Because three of the four are Indiana kids – Leal, Trey Galloway and Khristian Lander – we all already know them very well. We like them. They are great kids, from great families. We've seen play for years, and when you add the athletic Jordan Geromino to the mix, it's all good.
Or is it?
When it comes to player development, you have to wonder – where it is? We haven't see any improvement in them through the course of the season. Why is that? And doesn't that absolutely fall on Miller?

Of course it does.
Against Michigan State, the freshman didn't score any points at all. Geronimo didn't play, Leal had a turnover as was yanked after two minutes, Lander shot another airball that missed by two feet and then had a bad pass turnover and was pulled. Galloway played nine minutes and missed both shots.
Purdue's freshmen, playing at Nebraska on the same day, outscored Indiana's rookies 36-0. A few weeks ago, they had 51 points in a game on the same day that Indiana's freshmen were shut out, too.
Player development is key when you don't bring in a bunch of stud recruits. Tom Crean's teams got good when 140-ish recruits like Victor Oladipo and Will Sheehey became huge contributors along with the five-stars Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell.
Miller hasn't done that. Rob Phinisee is no better now than he was as a freshman. Al Durham is no better either, even though he has occasional moments. Indiana quite literally has no consistent perimeter shooters on this roster. It's Indiana, where shooters grow on trees.
And that all comes back to Miller and recruiting. Watch Miller's offense when Devonte Green was knocking down threes. Damn effective. Even Robert Johnson made it work in Miller's first year. But they are the only two guys to make 50 or more threes in a season.

I still do think that Indiana's freshmen will develop into perimeter threats at some point, but they aren't there now. Imagine, for instance, if Purdue's Sasha Stefanovic, the junior from Crown Point, Ind., was on this team, or someone like him. That shooting threat would easily have led to two or three more wins this year. And last year, too. That's the common thread on what's been missing with this team – shooters.
Archie Miller never once tried to recruit Sasha Stefanovic. He's made 134 threes in his career so far. Indiana could have used that. Just one player like that probably saves Archie Miller's job.

Indiana coach Archie Miller shouts instructions to Indiana guard Al Durham (1) during the Hoosiers' 78-71 loss to Michigan State. (USA TODAY Sports)
So where do we go from here?
It's time for the Archie Miller era to end. It hasn't been good enough for four years now, and if Jackson-Davis leaves for the pros, the Hoosiers aren't even a top-10 team in the Big Ten next season. That's bottom four, folks.
The present stinks, but the future looks even worse. He's losing far too many important recruiting battles, especially in-state now. Trey Kaufman and Caleb Furst are both going to Purdue. All of the top-10 players in the state are going elsewhere.
Purdue is way ahead of Indiana right now, and that shouldn't be the case, not wit all of Miller's resources.

The elephant in the room, of course, is Miller's seven-year contract where the buyout is still VERY expensive after this fourth year. It's much more reasonable after year five, but can we really go through this for another year, especially with no light at the end of the tunnel?
Look around the Big Ten. Illinois and Ohio State hired coaches the same year Indiana did, and they are both top-five teams and national title contenders. Michigan hired Juwan Howard two years ago, and they are No. 1 seed, a title contender and have the highest-ranked recruiting class in 2021. (Indiana is No. 78, dead last in the Big Ten.) Rutgers is on the rise, Michigan State will be back strong, of course.
In title talk, Indiana is a non-factor.
So the question is, do the high-roller boosters of this program really want to pony up for Miller's buyout now, plus the cash it would take to hire a top-level coach after Miller is gone? Or do they give him another year, even though we're pretty sure what that 2022 result is going to be, too.
In any case, we've reached that time for new Indiana athletic director Scott Dolson to make a decision. This hasn't worked and it's time for a change. Pandemic or no, this isn't Indiana basketball. Just trying to be .500 in the Big Ten isn't enough. Just hoping and praying for an NCAA Tournament bid isn't enough.

Scott Dolson knows that too, because he wears an Indiana national championship ring himself.
Archie Miller has had time. His past hasn't been great, the present isn't good enough and the future looks kind of scary.
It's time – somehow and some way on some kind of time frame – to move on from the Archie Miller era.

Indiana coach Archie Miller buries his head in his hands after a turnover. (USA TODAY Sports)
Related stories on Indiana basketball
  • SPARTANS RALLY, BEAT HOOSIERS: Indiana blew a nine-point second half lead and lost at home to Michigan State 78-71 on Saturday. CLICK HERE
  • EAST LANSING GAME SET: Indiana's postponed game in East Lansing against Michigan State has been rescheduled to Tuesday, March 2. CLICK HERE
  • PHINISEE GETTING MIND RIGHT: Indiana guard Rob Phinisee tends to think too much when he's struggling, but he was great Wedneday night against Minnesota when he was playing free and easy. CLICK HERE
  • INDIANA NCAA TOURNAMENT PROJECTIONS: The Hoosiers are currently projected to be a "last four in" team in the NCAA Tournament. CLICK HERE
  • UPATED INDIANA SCHEDULE: Here is the complete Indiana basketball schedule, including all the latest updates and links to every game story and Tom Brew columns from throughout the season. CLICK HERE

BY
TOM BREW
Tom Brew is an award-winning journalist who has worked at some of America's finest newspapers as a reporter and editor, including the Tampa Bay (Fla.) Times, the Indianapolis Star and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. He has covered college sports in the digital platform for the past five years, including the last two as publisher of HoosiersNow at Sports Illustrated.

How is Tom Brew an award-winning journalist? He is a terrible writer! I just detected several grammatical in this article and I didn't even read all of it. His writing style is repulsive!
 
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jet812

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I don’t gamble, but I think there is no way he’s gone - unless he leaves on his own. TBD I suppose.
It would take a TREMENDOUS departure from how IU has handled things for decades for him to be fired after this season. No way the same BoT & an AD that Was a protege to FG is gonna pony up the cash.
 

Hank Reardon

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It would take a TREMENDOUS departure from how IU has handled things for decades for him to be fired after this season. No way the same BoT & an AD that Was a protege to FG is gonna pony up the cash.

Financial considerations aside, it doesn't seem the IU Way to part ways with a coach this quickly. I can't see it. IU simply isn't a school to fire someone 4 years into a 7 year contract for anything less than misconduct. Even if we miss the tourney this season (I still think we'll make it) the narrative will be that we certainly would have made it last season and the future looks bright. And so on.

And like others have said, it might not be best to fire him this year anyway. It's not as if there's an obvious successor waiting.
 

SIhoosier26

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I disagree on Race and IU's overall talent. Race, Armaan, and TJD are all guys who would start for almost every team in the league. Race's advanced metrics are pretty good. For whatever reason there are very few teams with two elite big guys in the conference. Trayce and Race are probably the best 4/ 5 combo in the league, besides Michigan depending on who you pair with Dickinson.
Lol
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Mar 28, 2011
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I think I have asked you this before but...

SO, you think if FG wouldn't have said what you object to and Archie thinks he might get fired, he suddenly becomes a better coach and IU wins more games? You REALLY believe that scenario?

You don't think that Archie isn't HYPER competitive? To the point that no one could put more pressure on him that he does to himself?

I don’t think Glass not saying what he said would’ve made a difference in how the team played, no.

But what it would’ve done is left his options open, made a clear indication that he was committed to a successful program, etc.

FTR, I don’t think he should’ve said it was a make-or-break year or that Archie was in a win-or-else situation. I just think it was a mistake for him to suggest that no matter how the team performed, Archie’s job was safe. And I sure as hell wouldn’t have scheduled my retirement (probably deliberately, though we’ll never know) to ensure that was the case.