SI story---Discuss

mushroomgod_1

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Apr 9, 2012
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Someone else posted this SI story earlier, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Some My Two Cents: Was This Finally the Loss That Archie Miller Can't Survive?
Four years into the Archie Miller era at Indiana, another troublesome home loss as a big favorite is just further proof that this doesn't work anymore. It's time for a change.
TOM BREWUPDATED:FEB 21, 2021ORIGINAL:FEB 21, 2021
BLOOMINGTON, Ind. – Archie Miller was born and raised in a basketball family in Pennsylvania, played his college ball in North Carolina and cut his coaching teeth in Ohio. How does all that fit in Indiana?
It doesn't. Not anymore.
Archie Miller is Indiana's beleaguered basketball coach right now, but for how much longer? He hasn't had a shred of success in Bloomington, just a few moments here and there that get spun a certain way, but then disappear like a bubble floating in the soft wind.
This is clearly not working, and the four-year Archie Miller experiment took another major blow on Saturday when Indiana lost 78-71 to Michigan State's worst team of the century. Think about that for a minute. It's the fourth home game Indiana has lost this season as a big favorite. Think about that, too.
But it's how they lost that's the problem, because it crystalizes everything that's wrong with Indiana basketball right now. They can't shoot and they can't defend consistently. In Indiana!! Four years later, it was supposed to be different.
It's not.
This is 2017 all over again, and the ugly finish to the crumbling Tom Crean era that really showed a lot of promise at one time.
This is 2009 all over again, and the we-told-you-so thrashing to the end of the out-of-control Kelvin Sampson era. (That small dash of Dan Dakich doesn't count. That was the poster-child for interim.)
This is 2006 again, and the sad ending to the Mike Davis era, a nice man who was in over his head, his biggest fault being that he took a team to a national championship game when most people wanted him fired, and that made it hard to do.

And this is, dare I say, 2000 all over again. Yeah, I'll blaspheme and go there. The Bob Knight era needed to come to and end, and it did.
And doesn't this Archie Miller era need to come to an end now, too?

Indiana coach Archie Miller complains about a call during the Hoosiers' loss to Michigan State on Saturday. (USA TODAY Sports)
So how did we get to this point?
I will be the first to admit that I don't go down the "fire the coach'' road very often. Forty-something years of doing this, "hardly at all'' describes my thinking best, because it's completely counterproductive.
When I started covering Indiana again for Sports Illustrated two years ago, I would say the sky is blue and Indiana fans would comment with "fire Archie Miller.'' I would say Mother Bear's is my favorite pizza and you would say "fire Archie Miller.'' I wasn't going to join that rant, for many, many reasons. I just wanted to enjoy sunny days, eat my pizza and write about basketball.
And I haven't joined the rant. Until now.
I haven't ranted mostly because it's a waste of breath. Archie Miller wasn't going to be fired in August of 2019. And truth be told, he didn't get fired on Feb. 20, 2021 either, which was, you'd be happy to know, the five-year anniversary of the last time Indiana beat Purdue.
But it's become abundantly clear that the odds of him finishing out his seven-year contract at Indiana are skyrocketing. Now it seems it's just a matter of "when,'' not a matter of ''if.''

The loss Saturday dropped Indiana to 7-8 in the Big Ten and 12-10 overall. Sure, there are still games to be played – more on that in a minute – but in Miller's four years, he has never had a winning record in the Big Ten. Not once. When you coach at Indiana, you talk about winning Big Ten TITLES, not just Big Ten games. He's just 33-40 in conference regular season games, and done nothing in the Big Ten tournament, either.
There have been no NCAA Tournament games either, with that asterisk hanging over Miller that a bid was likely coming before COVID canceled the tournament. That's not Indiana basketball, either. And in the four remaining games this season – home against Michigan and on the road at Rutgers, Michigan State and Purdue – Indiana will be the underdog in each of them.
Odds are that Indiana has already won its last game this year. Jeez, let that sink in, too.
But this is history that you already know. What you don't know is my reasoning for why we've reached this point today, and why it's finally time for me to say this isn't going to work. There is no way this can succeed. Long-term success for Archie Miller at Indiana is something I just can't picture anymore. That's become clear.
Opinions that run counter to the norm
I have a lot of takes on Archie Miller that will differ from most. But the individual complaints never take away from the fact that he is the head coach at Indiana, and the buck absolutely stops with him.

Let's look at three issues that get discussed the most – talent, scheme and player development.
So let's start with this fallacy first, that Indiana has a ton of talent and Miller is destroying it. That's so not true. There's really not that much elite talent there. As I said, the buck stops with Miller, and he's the reason why the talent level is what it is. Recruiting is king in college basketball, and despite his enormous recruiting budget, he hasn't delivered. He's lost too many big-time recruiting fights.
Trayce Jackson-Davis is the only true NBA prospect on this roster. If you gathered 14 guys to do an all-Big Ten fantasy league, you'd have to go several rounds before another IU player was picked after Trayce. Just about every night in the Big Ten, the other team has better guards, better wing players. I'd take Jackson-Davis over his matchup in the post most nights, but it literally stops there. And it's not even close, outside of Armaan Franklin on a few nights. Race Thompson plays hard, but does he start on many other Big Ten teams? No way.
A lot has been made about Miller recruiting three straight Indiana Mr. Basketball stars in Romeo Langford, Jackson-Davis and now Anthony Leal, and that's all good. It is good, because it's never been done before. But in each year, that's just one guy. Romeo was hurt and utilized in the wrong way, Jackson-Davis has been A-minus good with a few flaws still in his game and Leal is still very much an unknown. He was ranked No. 152 in the country as a recruit, not No 1 or No. 5 or No. 2. He was never supposed to provide an immediate impact, and he hasn't.

The biggest criticism of Miller is his scheme. Almost no one likes his offense, and hand is raised there, too. Big Ten defenses are so good that they all know the Hoosiers' base plays as well as they do. It's simplistic, and easy to cover. All those handoffs generate nothing.
It's also not enough most nights, clearly. But it gets us back to the players, too. What Indiana sorely lacks this year are perimeter guys who can knock down threes with regularity. That's on Miller and recruiting, true, but there needs to be blame on the players too for not getting the job done. There's a disconnect there between scheme, execution and results, and there really is plenty of blame to go around.
Fans make me laugh when they wonder why they don't practice shooting more, but the fact is that they do. A good backstory from this year is that practices have been better now than at any time in Miller's four years, because of the work ethic of this group of players and the bad apples and lazy practice players that are no longer in the locker room.
You can question the talent level of this group, but you can't question their effort. Trust me on that. They work, especially while locked up in a COVID-infused bubble. It's just that they can work as hard as they want, but it's hard to run an offense where the defense already has you figured out and no one on the roster can create their own shot.

Lastly, player development has to be discussed. Right now, there are only three players on this roster who are getting better. Jackson-Davis was projected as a star, and he's been good, but he can be even better. There is, as Miller often says, another gear there. We saw that Saturday with his 34 points, but he needs to be coached even harder.
Race Thompson has gotten better in his four years, and Armaan Franklin has made a nice jump this year. That's good, and admirable. But the rest of the roster is no better today than it was at the start of the season, and guards like Al Durham and Rob Phinisee have had so many bad nights that the Hoosiers literally have no chance of winning on the nights they play poorly.
And that brings us to this freshman class. Because three of the four are Indiana kids – Leal, Trey Galloway and Khristian Lander – we all already know them very well. We like them. They are great kids, from great families. We've seen play for years, and when you add the athletic Jordan Geromino to the mix, it's all good.
Or is it?
When it comes to player development, you have to wonder – where it is? We haven't see any improvement in them through the course of the season. Why is that? And doesn't that absolutely fall on Miller?

Of course it does.
Against Michigan State, the freshman didn't score any points at all. Geronimo didn't play, Leal had a turnover as was yanked after two minutes, Lander shot another airball that missed by two feet and then had a bad pass turnover and was pulled. Galloway played nine minutes and missed both shots.
Purdue's freshmen, playing at Nebraska on the same day, outscored Indiana's rookies 36-0. A few weeks ago, they had 51 points in a game on the same day that Indiana's freshmen were shut out, too.
Player development is key when you don't bring in a bunch of stud recruits. Tom Crean's teams got good when 140-ish recruits like Victor Oladipo and Will Sheehey became huge contributors along with the five-stars Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell.
Miller hasn't done that. Rob Phinisee is no better now than he was as a freshman. Al Durham is no better either, even though he has occasional moments. Indiana quite literally has no consistent perimeter shooters on this roster. It's Indiana, where shooters grow on trees.
And that all comes back to Miller and recruiting. Watch Miller's offense when Devonte Green was knocking down threes. Damn effective. Even Robert Johnson made it work in Miller's first year. But they are the only two guys to make 50 or more threes in a season.

I still do think that Indiana's freshmen will develop into perimeter threats at some point, but they aren't there now. Imagine, for instance, if Purdue's Sasha Stefanovic, the junior from Crown Point, Ind., was on this team, or someone like him. That shooting threat would easily have led to two or three more wins this year. And last year, too. That's the common thread on what's been missing with this team – shooters.
Archie Miller never once tried to recruit Sasha Stefanovic. He's made 134 threes in his career so far. Indiana could have used that. Just one player like that probably saves Archie Miller's job.

Indiana coach Archie Miller shouts instructions to Indiana guard Al Durham (1) during the Hoosiers' 78-71 loss to Michigan State. (USA TODAY Sports)
So where do we go from here?
It's time for the Archie Miller era to end. It hasn't been good enough for four years now, and if Jackson-Davis leaves for the pros, the Hoosiers aren't even a top-10 team in the Big Ten next season. That's bottom four, folks.
The present stinks, but the future looks even worse. He's losing far too many important recruiting battles, especially in-state now. Trey Kaufman and Caleb Furst are both going to Purdue. All of the top-10 players in the state are going elsewhere.
Purdue is way ahead of Indiana right now, and that shouldn't be the case, not wit all of Miller's resources.

The elephant in the room, of course, is Miller's seven-year contract where the buyout is still VERY expensive after this fourth year. It's much more reasonable after year five, but can we really go through this for another year, especially with no light at the end of the tunnel?
Look around the Big Ten. Illinois and Ohio State hired coaches the same year Indiana did, and they are both top-five teams and national title contenders. Michigan hired Juwan Howard two years ago, and they are No. 1 seed, a title contender and have the highest-ranked recruiting class in 2021. (Indiana is No. 78, dead last in the Big Ten.) Rutgers is on the rise, Michigan State will be back strong, of course.
In title talk, Indiana is a non-factor.
So the question is, do the high-roller boosters of this program really want to pony up for Miller's buyout now, plus the cash it would take to hire a top-level coach after Miller is gone? Or do they give him another year, even though we're pretty sure what that 2022 result is going to be, too.
In any case, we've reached that time for new Indiana athletic director Scott Dolson to make a decision. This hasn't worked and it's time for a change. Pandemic or no, this isn't Indiana basketball. Just trying to be .500 in the Big Ten isn't enough. Just hoping and praying for an NCAA Tournament bid isn't enough.

Scott Dolson knows that too, because he wears an Indiana national championship ring himself.
Archie Miller has had time. His past hasn't been great, the present isn't good enough and the future looks kind of scary.
It's time – somehow and some way on some kind of time frame – to move on from the Archie Miller era.

Indiana coach Archie Miller buries his head in his hands after a turnover. (USA TODAY Sports)
Related stories on Indiana basketball
  • SPARTANS RALLY, BEAT HOOSIERS: Indiana blew a nine-point second half lead and lost at home to Michigan State 78-71 on Saturday. CLICK HERE
  • EAST LANSING GAME SET: Indiana's postponed game in East Lansing against Michigan State has been rescheduled to Tuesday, March 2. CLICK HERE
  • PHINISEE GETTING MIND RIGHT: Indiana guard Rob Phinisee tends to think too much when he's struggling, but he was great Wedneday night against Minnesota when he was playing free and easy. CLICK HERE
  • INDIANA NCAA TOURNAMENT PROJECTIONS: The Hoosiers are currently projected to be a "last four in" team in the NCAA Tournament. CLICK HERE
  • UPATED INDIANA SCHEDULE: Here is the complete Indiana basketball schedule, including all the latest updates and links to every game story and Tom Brew columns from throughout the season. CLICK HERE

BY
TOM BREW
Tom Brew is an award-winning journalist who has worked at some of America's finest newspapers as a reporter and editor, including the Tampa Bay (Fla.) Times, the Indianapolis Star and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. He has covered college sports in the digital platform for the past five years, including the last two as publisher of HoosiersNow at Sports Illustrated.
 
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mushroomgod_1

All-American
Apr 9, 2012
5,389
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113
Someone else posted this SI story earlier, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



Some My Two Cents: Was This Finally the Loss That Archie Miller Can't Survive?
Four years into the Archie Miller era at Indiana, another troublesome home loss as a big favorite is just further proof that this doesn't work anymore. It's time for a change.
TOM BREWUPDATED:FEB 21, 2021ORIGINAL:FEB 21, 2021
BLOOMINGTON, Ind. – Archie Miller was born and raised in a basketball family in Pennsylvania, played his college ball in North Carolina and cut his coaching teeth in Ohio. How does all that fit in Indiana?
It doesn't. Not anymore.
Archie Miller is Indiana's beleaguered basketball coach right now, but for how much longer? He hasn't had a shred of success in Bloomington, just a few moments here and there that get spun a certain way, but then disappear like a bubble floating in the soft wind.
This is clearly not working, and the four-year Archie Miller experiment took another major blow on Saturday when Indiana lost 78-71 to Michigan State's worst team of the century. Think about that for a minute. It's the fourth home game Indiana has lost this season as a big favorite. Think about that, too.
But it's how they lost that's the problem, because it crystalizes everything that's wrong with Indiana basketball right now. They can't shoot and they can't defend consistently. In Indiana!! Four years later, it was supposed to be different.
It's not.
This is 2017 all over again, and the ugly finish to the crumbling Tom Crean era that really showed a lot of promise at one time.
This is 2009 all over again, and the we-told-you-so thrashing to the end of the out-of-control Kelvin Sampson era. (That small dash of Dan Dakich doesn't count. That was the poster-child for interim.)
This is 2006 again, and the sad ending to the Mike Davis era, a nice man who was in over his head, his biggest fault being that he took a team to a national championship game when most people wanted him fired, and that made it hard to do.

And this is, dare I say, 2000 all over again. Yeah, I'll blaspheme and go there. The Bob Knight era needed to come to and end, and it did.
And doesn't this Archie Miller era need to come to an end now, too?

Indiana coach Archie Miller complains about a call during the Hoosiers' loss to Michigan State on Saturday. (USA TODAY Sports)
So how did we get to this point?
I will be the first to admit that I don't go down the "fire the coach'' road very often. Forty-something years of doing this, "hardly at all'' describes my thinking best, because it's completely counterproductive.
When I started covering Indiana again for Sports Illustrated two years ago, I would say the sky is blue and Indiana fans would comment with "fire Archie Miller.'' I would say Mother Bear's is my favorite pizza and you would say "fire Archie Miller.'' I wasn't going to join that rant, for many, many reasons. I just wanted to enjoy sunny days, eat my pizza and write about basketball.
And I haven't joined the rant. Until now.
I haven't ranted mostly because it's a waste of breath. Archie Miller wasn't going to be fired in August of 2019. And truth be told, he didn't get fired on Feb. 20, 2021 either, which was, you'd be happy to know, the five-year anniversary of the last time Indiana beat Purdue.
But it's become abundantly clear that the odds of him finishing out his seven-year contract at Indiana are skyrocketing. Now it seems it's just a matter of "when,'' not a matter of ''if.''

The loss Saturday dropped Indiana to 7-8 in the Big Ten and 12-10 overall. Sure, there are still games to be played – more on that in a minute – but in Miller's four years, he has never had a winning record in the Big Ten. Not once. When you coach at Indiana, you talk about winning Big Ten TITLES, not just Big Ten games. He's just 33-40 in conference regular season games, and done nothing in the Big Ten tournament, either.
There have been no NCAA Tournament games either, with that asterisk hanging over Miller that a bid was likely coming before COVID canceled the tournament. That's not Indiana basketball, either. And in the four remaining games this season – home against Michigan and on the road at Rutgers, Michigan State and Purdue – Indiana will be the underdog in each of them.
Odds are that Indiana has already won its last game this year. Jeez, let that sink in, too.
But this is history that you already know. What you don't know is my reasoning for why we've reached this point today, and why it's finally time for me to say this isn't going to work. There is no way this can succeed. Long-term success for Archie Miller at Indiana is something I just can't picture anymore. That's become clear.
Opinions that run counter to the norm
I have a lot of takes on Archie Miller that will differ from most. But the individual complaints never take away from the fact that he is the head coach at Indiana, and the buck absolutely stops with him.

Let's look at three issues that get discussed the most – talent, scheme and player development.
So let's start with this fallacy first, that Indiana has a ton of talent and Miller is destroying it. That's so not true. There's really not that much elite talent there. As I said, the buck stops with Miller, and he's the reason why the talent level is what it is. Recruiting is king in college basketball, and despite his enormous recruiting budget, he hasn't delivered. He's lost too many big-time recruiting fights.
Trayce Jackson-Davis is the only true NBA prospect on this roster. If you gathered 14 guys to do an all-Big Ten fantasy league, you'd have to go several rounds before another IU player was picked after Trayce. Just about every night in the Big Ten, the other team has better guards, better wing players. I'd take Jackson-Davis over his matchup in the post most nights, but it literally stops there. And it's not even close, outside of Armaan Franklin on a few nights. Race Thompson plays hard, but does he start on many other Big Ten teams? No way.
A lot has been made about Miller recruiting three straight Indiana Mr. Basketball stars in Romeo Langford, Jackson-Davis and now Anthony Leal, and that's all good. It is good, because it's never been done before. But in each year, that's just one guy. Romeo was hurt and utilized in the wrong way, Jackson-Davis has been A-minus good with a few flaws still in his game and Leal is still very much an unknown. He was ranked No. 152 in the country as a recruit, not No 1 or No. 5 or No. 2. He was never supposed to provide an immediate impact, and he hasn't.

The biggest criticism of Miller is his scheme. Almost no one likes his offense, and hand is raised there, too. Big Ten defenses are so good that they all know the Hoosiers' base plays as well as they do. It's simplistic, and easy to cover. All those handoffs generate nothing.
It's also not enough most nights, clearly. But it gets us back to the players, too. What Indiana sorely lacks this year are perimeter guys who can knock down threes with regularity. That's on Miller and recruiting, true, but there needs to be blame on the players too for not getting the job done. There's a disconnect there between scheme, execution and results, and there really is plenty of blame to go around.
Fans make me laugh when they wonder why they don't practice shooting more, but the fact is that they do. A good backstory from this year is that practices have been better now than at any time in Miller's four years, because of the work ethic of this group of players and the bad apples and lazy practice players that are no longer in the locker room.
You can question the talent level of this group, but you can't question their effort. Trust me on that. They work, especially while locked up in a COVID-infused bubble. It's just that they can work as hard as they want, but it's hard to run an offense where the defense already has you figured out and no one on the roster can create their own shot.

Lastly, player development has to be discussed. Right now, there are only three players on this roster who are getting better. Jackson-Davis was projected as a star, and he's been good, but he can be even better. There is, as Miller often says, another gear there. We saw that Saturday with his 34 points, but he needs to be coached even harder.
Race Thompson has gotten better in his four years, and Armaan Franklin has made a nice jump this year. That's good, and admirable. But the rest of the roster is no better today than it was at the start of the season, and guards like Al Durham and Rob Phinisee have had so many bad nights that the Hoosiers literally have no chance of winning on the nights they play poorly.
And that brings us to this freshman class. Because three of the four are Indiana kids – Leal, Trey Galloway and Khristian Lander – we all already know them very well. We like them. They are great kids, from great families. We've seen play for years, and when you add the athletic Jordan Geromino to the mix, it's all good.
Or is it?
When it comes to player development, you have to wonder – where it is? We haven't see any improvement in them through the course of the season. Why is that? And doesn't that absolutely fall on Miller?

Of course it does.
Against Michigan State, the freshman didn't score any points at all. Geronimo didn't play, Leal had a turnover as was yanked after two minutes, Lander shot another airball that missed by two feet and then had a bad pass turnover and was pulled. Galloway played nine minutes and missed both shots.
Purdue's freshmen, playing at Nebraska on the same day, outscored Indiana's rookies 36-0. A few weeks ago, they had 51 points in a game on the same day that Indiana's freshmen were shut out, too.
Player development is key when you don't bring in a bunch of stud recruits. Tom Crean's teams got good when 140-ish recruits like Victor Oladipo and Will Sheehey became huge contributors along with the five-stars Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell.
Miller hasn't done that. Rob Phinisee is no better now than he was as a freshman. Al Durham is no better either, even though he has occasional moments. Indiana quite literally has no consistent perimeter shooters on this roster. It's Indiana, where shooters grow on trees.
And that all comes back to Miller and recruiting. Watch Miller's offense when Devonte Green was knocking down threes. Damn effective. Even Robert Johnson made it work in Miller's first year. But they are the only two guys to make 50 or more threes in a season.

I still do think that Indiana's freshmen will develop into perimeter threats at some point, but they aren't there now. Imagine, for instance, if Purdue's Sasha Stefanovic, the junior from Crown Point, Ind., was on this team, or someone like him. That shooting threat would easily have led to two or three more wins this year. And last year, too. That's the common thread on what's been missing with this team – shooters.
Archie Miller never once tried to recruit Sasha Stefanovic. He's made 134 threes in his career so far. Indiana could have used that. Just one player like that probably saves Archie Miller's job.

Indiana coach Archie Miller shouts instructions to Indiana guard Al Durham (1) during the Hoosiers' 78-71 loss to Michigan State. (USA TODAY Sports)
So where do we go from here?
It's time for the Archie Miller era to end. It hasn't been good enough for four years now, and if Jackson-Davis leaves for the pros, the Hoosiers aren't even a top-10 team in the Big Ten next season. That's bottom four, folks.
The present stinks, but the future looks even worse. He's losing far too many important recruiting battles, especially in-state now. Trey Kaufman and Caleb Furst are both going to Purdue. All of the top-10 players in the state are going elsewhere.
Purdue is way ahead of Indiana right now, and that shouldn't be the case, not wit all of Miller's resources.

The elephant in the room, of course, is Miller's seven-year contract where the buyout is still VERY expensive after this fourth year. It's much more reasonable after year five, but can we really go through this for another year, especially with no light at the end of the tunnel?
Look around the Big Ten. Illinois and Ohio State hired coaches the same year Indiana did, and they are both top-five teams and national title contenders. Michigan hired Juwan Howard two years ago, and they are No. 1 seed, a title contender and have the highest-ranked recruiting class in 2021. (Indiana is No. 78, dead last in the Big Ten.) Rutgers is on the rise, Michigan State will be back strong, of course.
In title talk, Indiana is a non-factor.
So the question is, do the high-roller boosters of this program really want to pony up for Miller's buyout now, plus the cash it would take to hire a top-level coach after Miller is gone? Or do they give him another year, even though we're pretty sure what that 2022 result is going to be, too.
In any case, we've reached that time for new Indiana athletic director Scott Dolson to make a decision. This hasn't worked and it's time for a change. Pandemic or no, this isn't Indiana basketball. Just trying to be .500 in the Big Ten isn't enough. Just hoping and praying for an NCAA Tournament bid isn't enough.

Scott Dolson knows that too, because he wears an Indiana national championship ring himself.
Archie Miller has had time. His past hasn't been great, the present isn't good enough and the future looks kind of scary.
It's time – somehow and some way on some kind of time frame – to move on from the Archie Miller era.

I find the question of how much talent there is on this team to be interesting..........

On the one hand, he's right about Race. He wouldn't start on many teams in the BT---I'd say yes on PSU, Nebraska, Minnesota & NW....no on OSU, Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers....maybe on MSU, MD, Wisconsin.

But part of that is because he's a limited player--no outside shot, little driving ability, can only guard certain players, not a great ball handler. But, in his very specific and limited role here he's very efficient. So, if this is the way CAM wants to play he looks comfortable.

And looking at the team as a whole, we lost as big favorites 4x and would/couda lost again in NW, and to PSU. On the other hand, our talent was sufficient to beat Iowa x2, and have 50-50 games with FSU, Wisconsin & Illinois. How did that happen if our talent sucks so bad? I mean, for the most part, unlike a NW we have been in most games. Perplexing.
 
Dec 28, 2015
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He's a dead man walking regardless of what the administration does after the season. Once articles like this pop up it is impossible to recruit anymore. It's merely a question of when he gets fired at this point.
.
So he has Duncomb ..Gunn..And probably Karaban..
Zero chance Dolson pulls the plug with these recruits coming...
He's here next year 1000%.
And I'm not saying it's good...But he is safe.
 

Birnk403

All-American
Nov 17, 2019
5,673
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.
So he has Duncomb ..Gunn..And probably Karaban..
Zero chance Dolson pulls the plug with these recruits coming...
He's here next year 1000%.
And I'm not saying it's good...But he is safe.
He’s safe, but it’s not because of any of those kids, none of whom will be instant impact guys.
 
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fkfootball

All-Big Ten
Apr 28, 2014
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Hell, we might lose recruits by keeping him. What I hate most about Archie is he’s too arrogant to change his approach. It’s gonna be packline and mover-blocker untill the end. At least Crean tried some different ****.
 

fkfootball

All-Big Ten
Apr 28, 2014
4,949
5,233
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.
So he has Duncomb ..Gunn..And probably Karaban..
Zero chance Dolson pulls the plug with these recruits coming...
He's here next year 1000%.
And I'm not saying it's good...But he is safe.

Dude you must be a Purdue fan. You’ve been lobbying for weeks that he “won’t get fired.” It sounds like you don’t want him to either...
 

Beorik

Freshman
Sep 25, 2019
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I believe Coach Miller is coming back for another year or two. I don’t know that he should based on the overall results but I believe he will.

Talent wise I actually think he has been good. In 3 full recruiting cycles he has brought in Langford, Hunter, Davis, and Lander who were all incredible recruits. Then add to them Rob, Franklin, and Geronimo who were borderline top 100 and most liked them coming in. I personally like Race and Brunk additions as well. That’s 9 deep who you would think are good players. I am ok with that.

Now it hasn’t translated onto the court for a myriad of reasons. I personally think he is safe because the injuries to Langford, Brunk, Hunter, Rob, and Race are not his fault and have impacted our W/L total.

I don’t like it any more than anyone else at this point but it is why I think he will be safe for a couple more years.
 
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Baller23Boogie

Senior
Gold Member
Aug 17, 2008
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I think money will play a factor, not only because we would have to pay Archie, but also probably have to pay the school of any coach that we would want to get out of their current contract as well.

That's why I think Archie gets one more year.
 

Coach Geez

Junior
Dec 23, 2019
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I think money will play a factor, not only because we would have to pay Archie, but also probably have to pay the school of any coach that we would want to get out of their current contract as well.

That's why I think Archie gets one more year.

Agreed. Nate Oats is a name who has been thrown out. Oats was just extended at Alabama through the 2027 season and received a salary bump from $2.5mil to roughly ~$3.5mil. His buyout is $10mil+ over the next two years and I'm guessing to lure him from Alabama he's going to need to be paid in the yearly $4-5mil range. Archie's buyout is deferred through the end of his contract so it's not all owed a once and is offset in the event he is re-hired, but IU would likely need to come up with $15-20mil just to make this move in the initial year. It's doable but not something I see happening this year.
 
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Dude you must be a Purdue fan. You’ve been lobbying for weeks that he “won’t get fired.” It sounds like you don’t want him to either...
I'm just a realist....
He's not going anywhere..Maybe he gets the come to jesus talk this summer.
But two major donors I know say..He's getting another year..
 

go_iu

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I find the question of how much talent there is on this team to be interesting..........

On the one hand, he's right about Race. He wouldn't start on many teams in the BT---I'd say yes on PSU, Nebraska, Minnesota & NW....no on OSU, Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers....maybe on MSU, MD, Wisconsin.

But part of that is because he's a limited player--no outside shot, little driving ability, can only guard certain players, not a great ball handler. But, in his very specific and limited role here he's very efficient. So, if this is the way CAM wants to play he looks comfortable.

And looking at the team as a whole, we lost as big favorites 4x and would/couda lost again in NW, and to PSU. On the other hand, our talent was sufficient to beat Iowa x2, and have 50-50 games with FSU, Wisconsin & Illinois. How did that happen if our talent sucks so bad? I mean, for the most part, unlike a NW we have been in most games. Perplexing.
Our talent does suck. They do try as the article mentions and occasionally get lucky. I once beat a D2 star in 1 on 1 and the ONLY reason that happened is that I was shooting like Steph Curry and he didn't think I could do that to 30. What happened next ... he immediately was wanting to play again, not tired at all, and I was dying on the hood of my car chugging Gatorade because it damn near killed me. We don't even have players that good
 

go_iu

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I believe Coach Miller is coming back for another year or two. I don’t know that he should based on the overall results but I believe he will.

Talent wise I actually think he has been good. In 3 full recruiting cycles he has brought in Langford, Hunter, Davis, and Lander who were all incredible recruits. Then add to them Rob, Franklin, and Geronimo who were borderline top 100 and most liked them coming in. I personally like Race and Brunk additions as well. That’s 9 deep who you would think are good players. I am ok with that.

Now it hasn’t translated onto the court for a myriad of reasons. I personally think he is safe because the injuries to Langford, Brunk, Hunter, Rob, and Race are not his fault and have impacted our W/L total.

I don’t like it any more than anyone else at this point but it is why I think he will be safe for a couple more years.
Not 2, MAYBE 1 more. As soon as they see $$$ lost because of fan apathy, they'll move on him. COVID may be AM's best friend
 

kkott

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.
So he has Duncomb ..Gunn..And probably Karaban..
Zero chance Dolson pulls the plug with these recruits coming...
He's here next year 1000%.
And I'm not saying it's good...But he is safe.
I think he's safe too and won't get fired this year, but I do think it's warranted if we don't make the tourney. But, the recruits play zero role in that. Those are very, very average recruits for any P5 program. It's not like there's a top 10 class there... probably not top 100 and that's assuming we get a kid most hadn't heard about til yesterday, that is not a guarantee by any stretch and he's the highest rated out of the bunch. Coaches are fired all the time with much better recruits than those coming in.
 

Pledgemygrievance

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I'm just a realist....
He's not going anywhere..Maybe he gets the come to jesus talk this summer.
But two major donors I know say..He's getting another year..
Unless he leaves on his own, he’s back 99.5% guaranteed. Next year will be Judgment Day though for sure.

This off-season is going to be extremely interesting to say the least. Full free agency and with Kenya on board, this roster could have 33% turnover by next August.
 

Pledgemygrievance

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I think he's safe too and won't get fired this year, but I do think it's warranted if we don't make the tourney. But, the recruits play zero role in that. Those are very, very average recruits for any P5 program. It's not like there's a top 10 class there... probably not top 100 and that's assuming we get a kid most hadn't heard about til yesterday, that is not a guarantee by any stretch and he's the highest rated out of the bunch. Coaches are fired all the time with much better recruits than those coming in.
Curious why you say they are average recruits? Rankings? Armaan was a 3-star and he’s IUs best guard - even when he’s hurt. If he were healthy, he was all B1G caliber.
 

Sobchak_Security

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I find the question of how much talent there is on this team to be interesting..........

On the one hand, he's right about Race. He wouldn't start on many teams in the BT---I'd say yes on PSU, Nebraska, Minnesota & NW....no on OSU, Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers....maybe on MSU, MD, Wisconsin.

But part of that is because he's a limited player--no outside shot, little driving ability, can only guard certain players, not a great ball handler. But, in his very specific and limited role here he's very efficient. So, if this is the way CAM wants to play he looks comfortable.

And looking at the team as a whole, we lost as big favorites 4x and would/couda lost again in NW, and to PSU. On the other hand, our talent was sufficient to beat Iowa x2, and have 50-50 games with FSU, Wisconsin & Illinois. How did that happen if our talent sucks so bad? I mean, for the most part, unlike a NW we have been in most games. Perplexing.
Being a good players means also being consistent. Our talent level, top to bottom, isn’t very good. Archie just hasn’t recruited the talent necessary to win consistently at this level.
 
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5morebanners

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Sums it up pretty well. I like Archie’s philosophy and vision overall. I could be patient with mediocre early as long as there was strong foundation being laid and continuous improvement.

Recruiting talent and roster management overall have been my biggest concerns. The packline was never my favorite either. I know it can be really really good, but it can also be a disaster. The game is evolving beyond containing the drive and the scheme is susceptible to spacing and outside shooting.

Eventually, there has to be results
He’s dug a whole for himself that will take more than a tournament berth to recover from.

I’m fairly objective and reasonable, even on anonymous message boards. Pretty sure the writing is on the wall that this is not working. If I’m Dolson, a deep run in March is the only thing that changes my mind, and that seems highly unlikely.
 

Harpo Marxist

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Sums it up pretty well. I like Archie’s philosophy and vision overall. I could be patient with mediocre early as long as there was strong foundation being laid and continuous improvement.

Recruiting talent and roster management overall have been my biggest concerns. The packline was never my favorite either. I know it can be really really good, but it can also be a disaster. The game is evolving beyond containing the drive and the scheme is susceptible to spacing and outside shooting.

Eventually, there has to be results
He’s dug a whole for himself that will take more than a tournament berth to recover from.

I’m fairly objective and reasonable, even on anonymous message boards. Pretty sure the writing is on the wall that this is not working. If I’m Dolson, a deep run in March is the only thing that changes my mind, and that seems highly unlikely.
Archie has dug a hole and he's standing in it.....with two tools in the hole with him at his disposal:
a ladder and a shovel. Which one is he using?
 
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kkott

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Curious why you say they are average recruits? Rankings? Armaan was a 3-star and he’s IUs best guard - even when he’s hurt. If he were healthy, he was all B1G caliber.
Of course rankings. An AD or BOD isn't going to evaluate players for the purpose of keeping a Coach around because the future is so bright. If we have a top 20 kid and a couple top 50 kids, it might have some impact. With the kids we have committed today, it would not play any role in a decision to keep Archie or not.
 
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Pledgemygrievance

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Of course rankings. An AD or BOD isn't going to evaluate players for the purpose of keeping a Coach around because the future is so bright. If we have a top 20 kid and a couple top 50 kids, it might have some impact. With the kids we have committed today, it would not play any role in a decision to keep Archie or not.

Interesting
 

Cavanagh.13

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I think he's safe too and won't get fired this year, but I do think it's warranted if we don't make the tourney. But, the recruits play zero role in that. Those are very, very average recruits for any P5 program. It's not like there's a top 10 class there... probably not top 100 and that's assuming we get a kid most hadn't heard about til yesterday, that is not a guarantee by any stretch and he's the highest rated out of the bunch. Coaches are fired all the time with much better recruits than those coming in.

if he doesn’t make the tourney he will be fired. 100000000% percent. Bet the house on that.
 

snarlcakes

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I find the question of how much talent there is on this team to be interesting..........

On the one hand, he's right about Race. He wouldn't start on many teams in the BT---I'd say yes on PSU, Nebraska, Minnesota & NW....no on OSU, Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Rutgers....maybe on MSU, MD, Wisconsin.

But part of that is because he's a limited player--no outside shot, little driving ability, can only guard certain players, not a great ball handler. But, in his very specific and limited role here he's very efficient. So, if this is the way CAM wants to play he looks comfortable.

And looking at the team as a whole, we lost as big favorites 4x and would/couda lost again in NW, and to PSU. On the other hand, our talent was sufficient to beat Iowa x2, and have 50-50 games with FSU, Wisconsin & Illinois. How did that happen if our talent sucks so bad? I mean, for the most part, unlike a NW we have been in most games. Perplexing.

I disagree on Race and IU's overall talent. Race, Armaan, and TJD are all guys who would start for almost every team in the league. Race's advanced metrics are pretty good. For whatever reason there are very few teams with two elite big guys in the conference. Trayce and Race are probably the best 4/ 5 combo in the league, besides Michigan depending on who you pair with Dickinson.
 
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crazed_hoosier2

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I didn't think that would happen, but now think it's a distinct possibility after a story like this. It's being noticed nationally

It’s been noticed nationally before this.

I can’t recall who it was so I won’t guess, but after Archie’s embarrassing “Sesame Street” rant (which was touched off by Joe Lunardi having the audacity to suggest that our 19-20 team was a bubble team) some national media figure tweeted that Archie didn’t win enough at Indiana to have that kind of disposition towards critical press.

Whoever it was hit the nail on the head. Don’t take your program’s shortcomings out on those who merely recognize and report on it.

Given how things have gone for him here, Archie shouldn’t be defensive and confrontational — as if things have gone swimmingly and anybody who says otherwise is just being a hater. He should be regretfully understanding and acquiesced that his teams simply haven’t performed to the high expectations of a program like Indiana.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Being a good players means also being consistent. Our talent level, top to bottom, isn’t very good. Archie just hasn’t recruited the talent necessary to win consistently at this level.

Maybe. I’m not going to defend his roster management in general.

But I would point out that several of the more successful programs on the recent college basketball landscape — Villanova, Virginia, Gonzaga, Texas Tech — have done it without rosters full of 5-stars.

Moreover, whether because of talent or player development or something else, some of his recruiting wins have become players that just weren’t consistently helpful. As one example, there have been times where I’ve thought Rob Phinisee was a better player in the first half of his freshman year than he is as a junior. So that leads me to think the talent is there, but for whatever reason the performance isn’t.
 

Big Red Crimson Buffalo

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The real key here is not this year or next. Year #10 is the big key. Everyone knew this was a 10-year minimum rebuild. Sit back and enjoy the cheap seats from the rim of the toilet bowl. He’s very safe for 6 years.
 

crazed_hoosier2

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Unless he leaves on his own, he’s back 99.5% guaranteed. Next year will be Judgment Day though for sure.

This off-season is going to be extremely interesting to say the least. Full free agency and with Kenya on board, this roster could have 33% turnover by next August.

If next year is judgment day after 4 years of spinning our wheels in deep mud, you have to wonder just how high the bar would have to be set.

And if we think recruiting has been suspect until now, just wait until we have a coach out there trying to sell the program when everybody — the recruit, his parents, his HS and AAU coaches, competing coaches, even our own coaches — knows that he’s a zombie coach who is on borrowed time because of financial limitations.

I still think back to Fred Glass on this and just shake my head. First he made it clear that 19-20 wasn’t a make-or-break year for Archie, basically giving him carte blanche to have yet another mediocre season without fearing his job...and then, as if to put emphasis on it to silence Archie’s growing chorus of critics, announcing that he’d be retiring in May...making it logistically impossible to even consider a coaching change.

Thanks Fred. Heckuva job with our premier athletic program.
 
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