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Republicans are perceived as not caring about society.

When the federal government steps in as the (effective) underwriter of virtually all student loans, do you think it gives a hoot about the risk? What about when a bank finances something?

The best that can be said about this is that they're trying to get out ahead of this risk bubble before it bursts just like the housing bubble did -- which was also the result of a breakdown of risk management...getting people into homes they couldn't afford. Well, a whole lot of our outstanding student loans are similarly going to prove unaffordable.

If we'd have treated education financing the same as we treat finance for virtually anything else, we wouldn't be facing this. But, like healthcare and housing, education is one of the things cited in FDR's "Second Bill of Rights". As such, we approach it as something everybody must have access to, without appropriate consideration of things like value and risk.
It's still inherently offensive and a bit naive to believe that government backed student loans are a liberal principle. What would a conservative policy on student loans look like?

Is it fair to say that wasted military spending on boondoggle R&D projects (eg, Crusader and Raptor) is conservative? I wouldn't say that because it's equally silly and useless to classify itself as such.

Government backed student loans is about a government investing in the future of its citizens. There's nothing inherently liberal or conservative about that.
 
What would a conservative policy on student loans look like?

Didn't I explain what it would be? Read the post again -- you clearly missed it.

Is it fair to say that wasted military spending on boondoggle R&D projects (eg, Crusader and Raptor) is conservative? I wouldn't say that because it's equally silly and useless to classify itself as such.

I don't know. But military spending and social spending are two very different things. Nobody disputes that the military is the government's domain. In fact, the constitution explicitly requires it.

I don't think the constitution dictates that the federal government has to underwrite loans for people to go to college.

Government backed student loans is about a government investing in the future of its citizens. There's nothing inherently liberal or conservative about that.

Of course there is. It's precisely the kind of thing that many conservatives think government should avoid. And, when this powder keg blows up in our face -- and it will -- it will become very apparent why.

If this were a sensible investment "in the future of its citizens", it wouldn't be in danger of a mass of defaults. Think about it.

But government doesn't generally make sensible investments. And that's a big part of the problem.
 
Didn't I explain what it would be? Read the post again -- you clearly missed it.
You basically say you'd treat it like other non-educational and non-housing risk decisions...which is a cop out. Private (meaning non government) businesses make bad risk decisions daily and many lead to bankruptcy. When conservative "principles" like fighting capital reserve requirements lead to bail outs and FDIC claims, are you finding a way to blame liberal policies?

Again, what is the conservative approach to student loans? Only private institutions can underwrite and broker the loan?
 
You basically say you'd treat it like other non-educational and non-housing risk decisions...
It's simple enough. Those students with financially better backgrounds and those going into fields with higher pay rates upon graduation will have less difficulty getting loans at better rates than those that don't. Instead of education being an equalizer, this scheme will only serve to widen the gap. A Carmel kid going for a finance degree from Kelly is going to be taken care of; an Austin kid majoring in elementary education... not so much.
 
You basically say you'd treat it like other non-educational and non-housing risk decisions...which is a cop out.

How so?

Private (meaning non government) businesses make bad risk decisions daily and many lead to bankruptcy.

Of course they do. What's this have to do with anything?

Some people beat the house at casinos, too.

When conservative "principles" like fighting capital reserve requirements lead to bail outs and FDIC claims, are you finding a way to blame liberal policies?

I'd never be in favor of bailing out a financial institution. If they know they have to shoulder the risk and that they'll never get bailed out, they'll act accordingly.

Again, what is the conservative approach to student loans? Only private institutions can underwrite and broker the loan?

Pretty much. Keep the government out of it.

It's no coincidence that we're having massive problems related to the finance of higher education, healthcare, and housing. They all have a common denominator.
 
It's simple enough. Those students with financially better backgrounds and those going into fields with higher pay rates upon graduation will have less difficulty getting loans at better rates than those that don't. Instead of education being an equalizer, this scheme will only serve to widen the gap. A Carmel kid going for a finance degree from Kelly is going to be taken care of; an Austin kid majoring in elementary education... not so much.

So are you saying that we've successfully "equalized" kids from Austin with kids from Carmel by our underwriting of student loans?

FTR, if a kid from Austin would be going for a degree in finance, or chemistry, or engineering, I doubt they'd have much problem securing a loan to do so. And that's because those degrees have a cost/benefit relationship that makes sense -- even if the kid's family has little in the way of collateral.

And I doubt too many kids from Carmel are going to be borrowing much to pay for college anyway -- regardless what degree they seek.
 
You basically say you'd treat it like other non-educational and non-housing risk decisions...which is a cop out. Private (meaning non government) businesses make bad risk decisions daily and many lead to bankruptcy. When conservative "principles" like fighting capital reserve requirements lead to bail outs and FDIC claims, are you finding a way to blame liberal policies?

Again, what is the conservative approach to student loans? Only private institutions can underwrite and broker the loan?

The reality is that college was very cheap (in 19th century was sometimes free) and it was very affordable for most of our history....until the govt got involved....starting with the GI bill....but expanding greatly from there.

Yeah...we send a lot of kids to college now...a huge % don't finish but still have loans tied to them. A lot more finish with even larger loans, and skills that aren't much more marketable than peers that never went.

I don't see how either actually helps those people. You can't BK student loans....so now they have a debt chain around their neck for years/decades.
 
The reality is that college was very cheap (in 19th century was sometimes free) and it was very affordable for most of our history....until the govt got involved....starting with the GI bill....but expanding greatly from there.
So what did you think of the game tonight?
Crean still substitutes too much, they didn't even get a chance to work up a sweat and he takes them out
 
So what did you think of the game tonight?
Crean still substitutes too much, they didn't even get a chance to work up a sweat and he takes them out

You think I was watching IU tonight?
 
With all the bad news such as the hike in Obamacare rates and the drab economy, if Hillary wins, it's really simply a repudiation of the Party of No Solutions. It's easy to blame it on Trump, but that's not what's really happening. The predominance of people prefer some solution to no solution, even if it costs them something. Most people, despite the nonsense droned by some here, actually care enough about society to pay some cost. Put differently, they view society as theirs, just as they view family as theirs, so they're willing to invest in it. If the pragmatic choice were between Obamacare and Republicare, people would obviously take Republicare because it would appear to save money. Since the Republicans are offering no pragmatic choice, people resign themselves to Obamacare.

Republicans need to step out of their self-centered box and realize that the reality of life is that we live in a society and I am my society and my society is me. This is not a socialistic concept and thinking that would be pure ignorance of reality. The point is I am responsible for my society. I need to create solutions for my society. I can't pollute my drinking water and I can't pollute my society. Any solution is better than no solution, contrary to the conservative small-government trope. The real reason minorities don't vote Republican in larger percentages is because Republicans offer no societal solutions, only self-serving solutions. Republicans are perceived as not caring about society.

Bassackwards

A democrat sees government as fixing society

A Republican sees society as fixing government.

Indeed, there are a lot of problems in society. A belief that government can fix those if we just be nonpartisan and pass more and more laws is poppycock. Those who run government don't' run it for society, they run it for themselves. Exhibit A: Clinton Inc. What exactly did they produce of benefit to anybody when they went from "dead broke" to a net worth $111 million today? They didn't produce a new widget. They didn't practice law or medicine. They didn't run a hedge fund. They sold access and brokered influence. Maybe you think they care about society, but I don't.
 
Bassackwards

A democrat sees government as fixing society

A Republican sees society as fixing government.

Indeed, there are a lot of problems in society. A belief that government can fix those if we just be nonpartisan and pass more and more laws is poppycock. Those who run government don't' run it for society, they run it for themselves. Exhibit A: Clinton Inc. What exactly did they produce of benefit to anybody when they went from "dead broke" to a net worth $111 million today? They didn't produce a new widget. They didn't practice law or medicine. They didn't run a hedge fund. They sold access and brokered influence. Maybe you think they care about society, but I don't.

Historically we have had some great people enter government. You know there names, we all do. What has changed is that some have worked hard, damn hard, to turn the word "government" into a four letter word. Largely those people are the same ilk that Ike became president to stop. Its just they have gotten larger and more powerful. In making government an evil, the people who enter elected office are not quite of the caliber they once were. We no longer value civic duty at all, we only value people who make money hand over fist. So Donald Trump is a "respected businessman" no matter how bat crap crazy he is. And no matter how good of a person a politician is, they are just another crappy politician. The people who hate government, the people that worship the word "sheeple" on message boards, have taken far more power than they deserve. And may be close to taking more.

As to society fixing government, I haven't heard anything that funny in a long time. If you really truly believed that, you would be a staunch libertarian. Let me ask you one question to prove the point, did government invent racism or did society? Did a government set up shop over a harmonious group of people and say "hey, they are a different color, we must hate them". Or did a society form together hating another group and say "we need a government to reflect us". If you think America was a racially harmonious society at the time of the Revolution or the Constitutional Convention, one of us has been reading the wrong history books.
 
It's no coincidence that we're having massive problems related to the finance of higher education, healthcare, and housing. They all have a common denominator.

That's all well and good for those that have the means for each but where your unicornlike conservative playbook fails is when an otherwise innocent person that just happened to be born into a poor family needs healthcare or needs housing or could excel at education but can't afford a non-subsidized education.

Would you have opposed the GI Bill in 1944?
 
Historically we have had some great people enter government. You know there names, we all do. What has changed is that some have worked hard, damn hard, to turn the word "government" into a four letter word. Largely those people are the same ilk that Ike became president to stop. Its just they have gotten larger and more powerful. In making government an evil, the people who enter elected office are not quite of the caliber they once were. We no longer value civic duty at all, we only value people who make money hand over fist. So Donald Trump is a "respected businessman" no matter how bat crap crazy he is. And no matter how good of a person a politician is, they are just another crappy politician. The people who hate government, the people that worship the word "sheeple" on message boards, have taken far more power than they deserve. And may be close to taking more.

As to society fixing government, I haven't heard anything that funny in a long time. If you really truly believed that, you would be a staunch libertarian. Let me ask you one question to prove the point, did government invent racism or did society? Did a government set up shop over a harmonious group of people and say "hey, they are a different color, we must hate them". Or did a society form together hating another group and say "we need a government to reflect us". If you think America was a racially harmonious society at the time of the Revolution or the Constitutional Convention, one of us has been reading the wrong history books.

I could be snarky and say you should read the Declaration of Independence as evidence of my point, but we all know I am not snarky ;)

Here's the thing about your racism example. Human beings and societies were racist long before governments came along. The human condition is to not trust people who are different oe behave differently than we do. Let me ask you a question to prove the point. What do you think is the more effective institution at fixing racism; governments or the various kinds of social structures? Can we really pass a law to end racism? Racism is a tough problem for us and for the world. The fix is in us, in our beliefs, attitudes, families, churches, organizations and associations. The fix isn't in government.

Education for example. State and local governments decided a couple of hundred years ago to start systems of free public education. We even made education mandatory and passed truancy laws to enforce attendance. Did truancy laws help the drop out rates? Drop out rates are improving now. Are they improving because somebody passed a law? Or are they improving because of social changes.

Look, we are talking in generalities here. My bumper sticker response to clurker doesn't recognize exceptions to general statements. I know that. I think you know that too. There are things governments can and should do to improve society, but on balance, the society and its people have the responsibility to make government useful and virtuous, not the other way around.
 
Bassackwards

A democrat sees government as fixing society

A Republican sees society as fixing government.

Indeed, there are a lot of problems in society. A belief that government can fix those if we just be nonpartisan and pass more and more laws is poppycock. Those who run government don't' run it for society, they run it for themselves. Exhibit A: Clinton Inc. What exactly did they produce of benefit to anybody when they went from "dead broke" to a net worth $111 million today? They didn't produce a new widget. They didn't practice law or medicine. They didn't run a hedge fund. They sold access and brokered influence. Maybe you think they care about society, but I don't.
The next time a Republican actually lifts a finger to fix government will be the first. That's one of my points. You're the Party of No Solutions. Otherwise known as the Party of Whiners and Bitchers.

You guys are manic. I didn't say anything about liberals in my opening post. Conservatives are winning Congress but losing the long-term demographics. The only reason Trump is doing as well as he is is his RINO stance on trade. Republicans will never help non-college educated males. The basic point is that the Party of No Solutions' current destination is a path to oblivion and all you guys can do is get defensive. You have nothing to defend.

If your Congress rolled up its sleeves and attempted to solve some societal problems, Republicans might even achieve favorable ratings. But you won't. You'll just rail about the debt and Big Government.
 
That's all well and good for those that have the means for each but where your unicornlike conservative playbook fails is when an otherwise innocent person that just happened to be born into a poor family needs healthcare or needs housing or could excel at education but can't afford a non-subsidized education.

Well, first, few conservatives are opposed to the basic idea of public education. I think we should do it differently than we typically have and I'm glad that we seem to be open to trying some different approaches to it, despite the bitter opposition of the entrenched public education establishment. And I don't generally have a problem with subsidized college education -- that's why we have public universities, after all. So, first, don't mistake criticism of "student loans for anybody and everybody, guaranteed by taxpayers, and without respect to the monetary value of the degree" with an opposition to the broader idea of taxpayer subsidy for education.

Where we start getting into problems is when we approach these things as rights -- whether de jure or de facto. When we do that, we effectively place a higher value on universal access to all these things than we do on basic prudence. It's certainly understandable why we'd do that -- after all, who wants to deny healthcare, housing, or education to anybody? But unfortunately, prudence requires such things as limitations and restraint which are fundamentally incompatible with the view that these scarce resources are something to which we should all be entitled.

So, when you read UncleMark's response above -- about the kid from Austin and the kid from Carmel -- he's basically making this appeal. His basic premise is that whatever problems which have arisen (or may eventually arise) from our approach to higher-ed finance are worth the benefit of "equalizing" the educational opportunity of an aspiring school teacher from Austin with an aspiring investment banker from Carmel. The reason I asked him if he really thinks we've even actually achieved that ideal is because I don't think we have -- and I'd be surprised if he thinks we have. But, even if he thinks we have equalized educational opportunity irrespective of cost/benefit or risk of default, I'd still find it difficult to understand anybody thinking such a thing is truly worth 12 figures of shaky debt.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you find fault in any approach to these matters that doesn't, more or less, promise them to everybody as rights (although I'd certainly challenge the notion that I'm peddling unicorns....that's what I think we need to move away from.) But what I'm curious to learn is when you'll start taking a more sober look at the burgeoning failures arising from our attempts to establish college education, healthcare, and housing as rights.

It seems easier to talk about the shortcomings of a hypothetical alternative approach than it does to face up to the actual failures of what we've actually been doing -- and, more importantly, what they portend.

Would you have opposed the GI Bill in 1944?

No. But (a) that was compensation in kind, and (b) as far as I know, the GI Bill has always simply been a discretionary budget item rather than an open-ended exposure to trillions in uncollateralized debt without any kind of rational relationship between the amount of the debt and the implied value of the degrees they financed.

Would you be opposed requiring people to perform military service in order to qualify for federal education grants/loans?
 
It seems easier to talk about the shortcomings of a hypothetical alternative approach than it does to face up to the actual failures of what we've actually been doing -- and, more importantly, what they portend.
Well fine, but it's still all theoretical criticism and casting government as the bogeyman.

If you had it your way (ie, privatized everything) the sickest of us wouldn't have health insurance, and private banks would require such strict rules around educational loans that many of those seeking education would never attend in the first place. I envision banks requiring a student to selectively major in a handful of possible majors and perhaps even require service to the company following graduation.

As to your other question about requiring military service for a federal loan, no of course not. For starters, the force must be voluntary. Second, again, government investments in education for its citizens are an investment in the future. Because the programs as currently written aren't optimal, you're back to your ACA plan which is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's unsat...and naive.
 
Well fine, but it's still all theoretical criticism and casting government as the bogeyman.

My criticism isn't theoretical. I'm critical of what we've done and what it's wrought.

If you had it your way (ie, privatized everything)

I've never said we should "privatize everything." Hell, you just asked me if I'd have supported the GI Bill and I said I would. Is it really too much to ask that you accurately represent what I've said?

the sickest of us wouldn't have health insurance

??

and private banks would require such strict rules around educational loans that many of those seeking education would never attend in the first place.

Now, this is closer to something I've said. Have I mentioned that I think fewer, not more, people should be going to college? You're saying this to me as if it's necessarily a bad thing if "many of those seeking education would never attend."

A bad investment is a bad investment, regardless who picks up the tab.

If somebody wants to pay out of pocket for a degree that is worth less than what it costs to obtain, I'm not going to stand in their way. If a bank wants to lend money to somebody who wants to get a degree that is worth less than it costs to obtain, I'm not going to stand in their way. But when you throw that onto taxpayers, that's a different story.

Again, whatever problems you may have with how I think we should approach this, it's the approach you're defending that has us hurtling towards another massive financial disruption. Am I to assume that you're OK with this?

I envision banks requiring a student to selectively major in a handful of possible majors and perhaps even require service to the company following graduation.

Well, the latter "vision" is absurd. When have banks ever required people to work for them in order to secure a loan? An employer may lend an employee money for tuition with that condition. But that's already happening now and it's hardly the stuff of a social horror film.

As for the former, that's the glory of market competition. If one bank would only finance certain degrees, another might offer a broader range. Or maybe they offer different terms/rates for one major over another. Why shouldn't the disparity in risk be factored in? Maybe universities would price their varying degrees accordingly. Why not make lucrative degrees more expensive than those which carry little monetary value?

As to your other question about requiring military service for a federal loan, no of course not. For starters, the force must be voluntary.

The GI Bill was passed for returning veterans of WWII -- most of whom were conscripted.

Second, again, government investments in education for its citizens are an investment in the future.

You keep repeating that platitude. It's largely been an awful investment -- that's precisely why the government took it all over. They expect it to collapse. This wasn't done because it's an "investment in the future." It was done in the wake of the housing bust to preemptively contain the economic fallout from an anticipated wave of defaults.

What it means for the future is almost certainly more pain than gain.

If the degrees bought with all that money were worth what was spent on them, we wouldn't have to worry about defaults, Ranger.

Because the programs as currently written aren't optimal, you're back to your ACA plan which is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No, as with the ACA, I'm for throwing out the bathwater -- and there's a lot more bathwater in the tub than baby.

I'm not saying that all kinds of federal spending on higher education should go away. I'm saying we need to apply some common sense instead of indiscriminately throwing good money after bad.
 
Yeah, that's pretty much the problem with the whole "at least we're doing **something**!!!" defense.

Using this logic, we can defend most any policy decision in history.

The early Fed "did something" in response to the stock market bubble in the late 20s -- and to the crash in 1929.

Congress and Hoover "did something" in response to the pressures on the American labor market from imports in 1930.

LBJ "did something" to combat the threat of China and Russia expanding communism in Southeast Asia.

LBJ also "did something" to eradicate the scourge of poverty in America.

Nixon "did something" to respond to high rates of inflation in 1971 -- and, along with Ford and Carter, continued to "do something" to combat (curiously resilient) high oil/gas prices throughout the decade.

It's pointless to get into these kinds of discussions with iuwclurker. But I would use the occasion to reiterate what COH has said about just how much some people misunderstand the general conservative philosophy. To many people, conservatism is tantamount to "doing nothing" to improve society, or people's lives, etc. or even worse, some even see it as willfully harming society in order to benefit rich people (or, at best, standing in the way of improving society in order to protect rich people).

Thomas Frank, who is a genuinely thoughtful and inquisitive liberal, wrote a best-selling book pondering why more lower-income people didn't vote (what he saw as) their self-interest. His basic conclusion was that it was for cultural reasons -- and I'm sure there's something to that. But I also think that a whole lot of people have no interest in gaining at somebody else's expense. Low-income people could improve their condition by burgling homes and robbing banks, too. But few chose to do so.

Anyway, I agree with the basic point you're making. And Obamacare is a great and timely example: healthcare was obviously a mess in 2010 and the Democrats certainly "did something" about it.

But (a) I'd argue that it was only a mess because of decades of interventionist policies, and (b) I can't imagine even its most ardent supporter would say that it's lived up to its sales pitch....while those of us who thought it would only exacerbate the problems would point to it and say "Told you so."

Most social engineering projects don't help society "progress" towards anything but the proverbial cliff.

Psst...

We've got some really good models to examine. All across the world. Yes, we are a unique nation in many ways. But it doesn't mean we can't adapt what's been done well in other places.

However, for some reason, we seem to be unable to adopt progressive models that ultimately solve issues- and cost less LONG-TERM. We do a lot of penny wise, pound foolish type stuff.

Like a health care system for all, for example. Obamacare ain't the answer- but I don't think it was ever intended to be. I think it was probably done as the first step toward single payer.
 
Psst...

We've got some really good models to examine. All across the world. Yes, we are a unique nation in many ways. But it doesn't mean we can't adapt what's been done well in other places.

However, for some reason, we seem to be unable to adopt progressive models that ultimately solve issues- and cost less LONG-TERM. We do a lot of penny wise, pound foolish type stuff.

Like a health care system for all, for example. Obamacare ain't the answer- but I don't think it was ever intended to be. I think it was probably done as the first step toward single payer.
Crazed doesn't get the point anyway. The logic is not that doing anything is good, which is how his straitjacketed ideology spins it. The logic is that taking no responsibility is not good. Conservatives are perceived to not care about society because conservatives wash their hands of any responsibility. They do this by pretending that opposing liberals is being responsible. Using Hank's example, the liberals are trying to put out the fire with water while the conservatives are on the sidelines yelling, "Stop using gasoline!"

If conservatives gave a shit about society, they'd do something to improve the existing solutions if they think the solutions need improving. Blaming liberals for bad solutions is a lot of hot air at best, but really more divisive and destructive of the US as a whole. The next time Mitch McConnell does something constructive will be the first. And yes, constructive includes grandfathering bad laws or streamlining others.
 
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