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Self was “elite” when Kansas hired him?

UNC had to BEG Williams to come to Chapel Hill.

What exactly defines a coach as “elite”?

This is silly. Winning two Big titles in 3 years. Finishing in the top 2 all 3 years in a power conference. Winning 75% of his games at Illinois. Going to back to back elite 8s. It wasn’t difficult to figure out Bill Self was elite when Kansas hired him.
 
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This is silly. Winning two Big titles in 3 years. Finishing in the top 2 all 3 years in a power conference. Winning 75% of his games at Illinois. Going to back to back elite 8s. It wasn’t difficult to figure out Bill Self was elite when Kansas hired him.
lol

Think walking into Sergio McClain,Brian Cook and Frank Williams made it a bit "easier" to be elite?
 
Yeah . . .Archie walked into Robert Johnson, Josh Newkirk and Juwan. Pretty comparable, huh?

I never stated that and I’ll assume Illinois had more talent. However, Robert and Juwan were good players and comparable. Sorry, but Archie isn’t Bill Self.
 
Sorry, but Archie isn’t Bill Self.

.....yet. May never be, may end up being better, who knows. Bill Self, like Archie, caught fire at a mid-major and earned a P5 gig before the age of the 40.

I never stated that and I’ll assume Illinois had more talent

Assuming Illinois had more talent shows you how much little you know. Frank Williams and Brian Cook were both first round picks and Sergio McClain was an all-B10 caliber player, Archie inherited nothing of the sort. Lon Kruger was hired away to the NBA from Illinois, not fired for failing to miss the tournament with a bunch of 5* talent a la Crean who didn't bother sticking around for Archie.
 
I never stated that and I’ll assume Illinois had more talent. However, Robert and Juwan were good players and comparable. Sorry, but Archie isn’t Bill Self.
lol . . . ASSUME Illinois had more talent? Think that had anything to do with that Elite 8 run?

Robert and Juwan are comparable to . . . whom?

Cook - 1999 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #20 in the nation; Morgan - Not ranked by RSCI, ranked 109th by Rivals, 90th at the time of his IU commitment by 24/7.

Frank Williams - 1998 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #21 in the nation; Johnson - RSCI #46 (tie)

Sergio McClain - 1997 Illinois Mr. Basketball,1st player to start on 4 straight state championship teams in Illinois history (Jabari Parker recently became the only other one), Newkirk . . . really?

But, hey, Archie also had Freddie McSwain when he took over . . .
 
.....yet. May never be, may end up being better, who knows. Bill Self, like Archie, caught fire at a mid-major and earned a P5 gig before the age of the 40.



Assuming Illinois had more talent shows you how much little you know. Frank Williams and Brian Cook were both first round picks and Sergio McClain was an all-B10 caliber player, Archie inherited nothing of the sort. Lon Kruger was hired away to the NBA from Illinois, not fired for failing to miss the tournament with a bunch of 5* talent a la Crean who didn't bother sticking around for Archie.
Careful with them facts . . .
 
lol . . . ASSUME Illinois had more talent? Think that had anything to do with that Elite 8 run?

Robert and Juwan are comparable to . . . whom?

Cook - 1999 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #20 in the nation; Morgan - Not ranked by RSCI, ranked 109th by Rivals, 90th at the time of his IU commitment by 24/7.

Frank Williams - 1998 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #21 in the nation; Johnson - RSCI #46 (tie)

Sergio McClain - 1997 Illinois Mr. Basketball,1st player to start on 4 straight state championship teams in Illinois history (Jabari Parker recently became the only other one), Newkirk . . . really?

But, hey, Archie also had Freddie McSwain when he took over . . .

When did you turn into an idiot?
 
When did you turn into an idiot?
Let's see . . . one guy says Bill Self took a team to an Elite 8; therefore, he is elite.

Opposite guy notes the talent said Elite 8 team had.

First guy says some of what Archie inherited was "comparable".

Opposite guy provide extensive info to totally contradict that assumption.

First guy calls opposite guy an idiot.

obtuse_o_932270.jpg
 
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Let's see . . . one guy says Bill Self took a team to an Elite 8; therefore, he is elite.

Opposite guy notes the talent said Elite 8 team had.

First guy says some of what Archie inherited was "comparable".

Opposite guy provide extensive info to totally contradict that assumption.

First guy calls opposite guy an idiot.

obtuse_o_932270.jpg

That has nothing to do with my point. I respond to you in good faith and you usually reciprocate. If you want to make the argument that Bill Self was only elite because of talent, then make it from the beginning. You really think I didn’t know that Illinois had more talent? I don’t treat you like an a#%.
 
That has nothing to do with my point. I respond to you in good faith and you usually reciprocate. If you want to make the argument that Bill Self was only elite because of talent, then make it from the beginning. You really think I didn’t know that Illinois had more talent? I don’t treat you like an a#%.
Dude . . .

Archie took Dayton to the Elite 8 - just like Self did with Tulsa.
Archie also took 4 straight teams from a mid-major to the NCAA Tournament as At-large teams. One of those had 6 scholarship players and no one taller than 6-6.

The point is Self took over a MUCH better situation than Archie did at Indiana. Not even close to being the same. Now, does that mean Archie WILL become elite? No - but he was considered a great hire when we got him. If he falls on his ass going forward (some will say he fell on his ass this past year, which I would necessarily disagree with) let's get rid of him.
 
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Let's see . . . one guy says Bill Self took a team to an Elite 8; therefore, he is elite.

Opposite guy notes the talent said Elite 8 team had.

First guy says some of what Archie inherited was "comparable".

Opposite guy provide extensive info to totally contradict that assumption.

First guy calls opposite guy an idiot.

obtuse_o_932270.jpg

If taking a team to the Elite 8 makes a coach Elite, then detractors have no choice but calling Archie Miller elite. How many 35 years old have taken a team to the Elite 8?
 
I don’t think the good ol IU brass will pay the buyout. IU is excellent at paying mediocre coaches millions
They shouldn't unless IU has a meltdown next year and I don't think that's going to happen. IU paid for one of the hottest coaches in the game at the time. I live in Dayton, played high school basketball and could have played at the college level but took a football scholarship instead. I know something about basketball and I watched a lot of UD games while Archie was here and like what I saw. His teams play great hard defense and his offense was better than people here give him credit for. Once IU gets the outside shooting game going you'll see a very efficient offense at IU. See UVA for a team that plays the way IU will play when Archie gets his shooters going. That kind of ball is the kind of ball I liked to play and the kind I like to watch.

The UD fans hated to lose Archie because he was a great coach for them. The OSU fans around here hated to see IU get Archie instead of them getting him because they saw he was an outstanding coach at UD and wanted him to coach OSU. The timing didn't work out for OSU and it worked out for us. I'm still happy that we got him. When IU starts winning big only the Negative Nancies will be unhappy. They don't want IU to do well.
 
lol . . . ASSUME Illinois had more talent? Think that had anything to do with that Elite 8 run?

Robert and Juwan are comparable to . . . whom?

Cook - 1999 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #20 in the nation; Morgan - Not ranked by RSCI, ranked 109th by Rivals, 90th at the time of his IU commitment by 24/7.

Frank Williams - 1998 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #21 in the nation; Johnson - RSCI #46 (tie)

Sergio McClain - 1997 Illinois Mr. Basketball,1st player to start on 4 straight state championship teams in Illinois history (Jabari Parker recently became the only other one), Newkirk . . . really?

But, hey, Archie also had Freddie McSwain when he took over . . .
I thought you had to play HS basketball in Indiana to be a good High IQ player that can shoot the 3, value the ball, and play hard-nosed defense...

All those kids on your list are from Illinois...couldn't been worth a darn...
 
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Hey, I've left you alone for the last couple of months after you made it abundantly clear that my posting was hurting your feelings.
I think you should crawl back under your bridge and find someone else who doesn't know what a harmless little pussy you really are.

How's that for an opinion?
How's that for an opinion of IU athletics? About the same as the rest of your posts that I previously pointed out. A gif or a put down that has nothing to do with sports. I do find it funny that you're trying the Internet tough guy act with me now after I was somewhat defending you originally. Keep it up though and eventually someone will really think you're a bad ass which is the ultimate achievement on message boards ;)
 
How's that for an opinion of IU athletics? About the same as the rest of your posts that I said previously. A gif or a put down. I do find it funny that you're trying the Internet tough guy act with me now after I was somewhat defending you originally. Keep it up though and eventually someone will really think you're a bad ass which is the ultimate achievement on message boards ;)

Okay, thanks.
Can we be done now, or will you not be able to resist the urge to respond to this post. Please try hard, if only due to the knowledge that I'm done with our correspondence.
Good luck on being strong.
 
Mike Davis run to the title game is equivalent to the actual title? I thought you had the dumb belief that there was only 1 successful team per year? If that's the case then how can you make the comparison you just did?
You are right, Davis failed that season like every team but Maryland. There is only one National Champion every season. As far as taking a team to the championship game Davis and Stallings both did that, but Stallings did win. The thing is that Florida and LSU rose to fill the vacuum after Alabama declined. Hiring Saban was the equivalent of hiring Coach K in the middle of his career after already winning a National Title and now which have both won multiple National Titles coupled with great recruiting of the top nationally ranked athletes.
 
I thought they did give Gillespie a chance. Why didn't they hire Cal when they hired Gillespie the first time?
Cal was a lot less accomplished then. But when they saw the problem/solution they made it happen. They didn’t sit around praying for a 1 out of 1,000 miracle to happen 5 years in. That’s why they’re where they’re at and we’re where we’re at.
 
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I am not ready to jump off a cliff but this is just not realistic either. It seems that on this board it is two extremes, either everything is disaster or everything is sunny. The truth lies somewhere in between.

To your points:

1. We see some things from the coach that would appear to be ok and we have seen some stuff that should cause some questions. I do not think that anyone can definitively say he is ok at this point and they cannot say he is a bust. Why? Because each can make a case based on things we have seen on the court. I would say that the jury is still out but Miller has a definite hole to get out of that has been dug to this point. I think that getting next year's team to the NCAA tournament is going to be a tough task based on what we know so far. We are one big question mark from top to bottom of the roster on just about everything from health to development over the summer. Our players whom we think we know what to expect from them are streaky by nature. So our only real predictable right now is unpredictability.

2. Sometimes you get a team's number in a season because of match ups. Beating MSU twice is nice but it ended up being as relevant as beating Kansas in Crean's last year. Playing Purdue close at Assembly Hall being counted as some kind of win in year 2 is laughable. That is the type of shot that should get swatted into the rafters and you feeling humiliated for even attempting it.

3. The facilities are just now getting up to par with what our competitors have had for over a decade. We are just now starting to catch up to many of them while they are building new things. You can thank the BTN for coming along and saving the incompetent people who were running this University from the late 80's through the 2000's. The BTN windfall saved their asses because there is 30 years of neglect finally being moderately addressed now. So good that we are finally getting competitive in that regard again but bad that playing catch up still has us behind.

4. There is absolutely momentum. Success breeds success and failure breeds failure. This is particularly true of a new coaching staff. That 12 game losing streak went a long way towards souring a top recruit from our school. It has soured the fanbase and recruiting is taking a bit of a hit right now. We have an 11 man roster because we missed out on every single worthwhile guy we were after to fill those spots in the Spring. Now credit to Miller for not pulling a Crean and grabbing some guy who does not belong on a Big Ten roster out of panic, but having an 11 man roster was not the plan going into the Spring, it is the result of missing on targets. We go into next year with an 11 man roster. 1 of those 11 has never played a minute and still has not been given the all clear health wise. Another of that roster has been injured each of the 3 years he has been here. Another 2 missed significant time last year due to injuries. One of the team leaders got a 3 game suspension for "violating team rules". Momentum is building on hype for new coaches and success for all others. Miller has neither right now. You are kidding yourself if you do not think that the past 2 years have hurt his ability to build a winning program. He is at a point where he is going to have to take a shortened, injury prone roster, that failed to make the tournament last year, that had now lost its 2 most impactful players, and basically make them a tournament team this year or else the negative nancies are going to grow exponentially.

We have a dumbed-down schedule this year IMO, I think it is possible to make the tournament but there is no way in hell I would be confident saying we will make it. I would not lay money either way but right now if I had to bet, I would bet more on the side of missing. We are currently picked to finish 8th in the Big Ten next year in a conference that appears weaker than this year. If that is not a loss of momentum from this time last year where we had Romeo coming and people were on the hype train, I do not know what is. Look at the IU talk right now on this site and similar sister sites. There is no buzz around the program at all. There is no buzz in the media. Miller has absolutely lost momentum. He can change that this year, but I think he is playing with a bad hand. If he makes the tournament this year, that is a big accomplishment based on the way things look to me right now.
If I ignore the roster Archie inherited and the injuries he had to the team last year, I would be calling for a new coach.

The facts are that Archie hasn't had a season to coach a team that he assembled and has coached the game his way. Archie over achieved his first year. That team was awful the year before and didn't pick up any players that made a difference. I happen to believe his methods can be successful. Defense matters to him and I haven't seen him make foolish moves from the bench or in offering scholarships. He had to put in lineups last year he never wanted to play, but did so because at one time our bench was Anderson, Moore, Forrester, and Fitzner.

I really hope we can get the use of all the players we have and we see the real progress the program has made. I feel this year is critical for a return for a 4th year. It would be awful to lose a coach that I believe can be successful at IU.

Results matter and recruits will start looking at how we have performed. Some High School kids will use the short sighted logic that many on here use and go play somewhere else. I don't believe it helps to promote a feeling of presumed failure. I wish everyone would acknowledge why we have struggled and give a healthy 2019-2020 team a chance to show what they can do.
 
They shouldn't unless IU has a meltdown next year and I don't think that's going to happen. IU paid for one of the hottest coaches in the game at the time. I live in Dayton, played high school basketball and could have played at the college level but took a football scholarship instead. I know something about basketball and I watched a lot of UD games while Archie was here and like what I saw. His teams play great hard defense and his offense was better than people here give him credit for. Once IU gets the outside shooting game going you'll see a very efficient offense at IU. See UVA for a team that plays the way IU will play when Archie gets his shooters going. That kind of ball is the kind of ball I liked to play and the kind I like to watch.

The UD fans hated to lose Archie because he was a great coach for them. The OSU fans around here hated to see IU get Archie instead of them getting him because they saw he was an outstanding coach at UD and wanted him to coach OSU. The timing didn't work out for OSU and it worked out for us. I'm still happy that we got him. When IU starts winning big only the Negative Nancies will be unhappy. They don't want IU to do well.

5 out of 8 years Archie's offenses have been ranked outside the top 50 (he might have been ranked 50th one of the years). The other year they were in the 30's. He's not been a good offense coach. For comparison Tony Bennett's offenses have been ranked in the top 30 5 out of the past 6 seasons. Also, I doubt OSU fans are upset now. They hired the better coach.

Edit: He had 3 in the top 50 in his 8 years. 28th was his highest ranking.
 
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If I ignore the roster Archie inherited and the injuries he had to the team last year, I would be calling for a new coach.

The facts are that Archie hasn't had a season to coach a team that he assembled and has coached the game his way. Archie over achieved his first year. That team was awful the year before and didn't pick up any players that made a difference. I happen to believe his methods can be successful. Defense matters to him and I haven't seen him make foolish moves from the bench or in offering scholarships. He had to put in lineups last year he never wanted to play, but did so because at one time our bench was Anderson, Moore, Forrester, and Fitzner.

I really hope we can get the use of all the players we have and we see the real progress the program has made. I feel this year is critical for a return for a 4th year. It would be awful to lose a coach that I believe can be successful at IU.

Results matter and recruits will start looking at how we have performed. Some High School kids will use the short sighted logic that many on here use and go play somewhere else. I don't believe it helps to promote a feeling of presumed failure. I wish everyone would acknowledge why we have struggled and give a healthy 2019-2020 team a chance to show what they can do.
I'm surrounded by UD and OSU* fans and I've told them that there is a vocal minority of fans that already want to fire Archie. They think those fans are morons and I agree. The consensus in UD country is that Archie is an excellent coach that will make IU a contender very soon. I think UD fans are smarter about basketball than average basketball fans. They're a lot smarter than our Negative Nancies.

*That is the OSU fans that care about basketball. Most OSU fans only care about football and couldn't name their current basketball coach and they probably couldn't pick the right name if they were given a multiple choice question. :D
 
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7 out of 8 years Archie's offenses have been ranked outside the top 50 (he might have been ranked 50th one of the years). The other year they were in the 30's. He's not been a good offense coach. For comparison Tony Bennett's offenses have been ranked in the top 30 5 out of the past 6 seasons. Also, I doubt OSU fans are upset now. They hired the better coach.

Hey Jackass,

You conveniently forget that Bennett's first four years at Virginia his offense via Kenpom were ranked 89th, 159th, 133rd, and 83rd? Not very easy transitioning that style of offense. You know what happened when he got his players in place? Once he got his own recruits in place and they became upperclassmen, turnovers went way down and efficiency went up. Why? Because he recruited high basketball IQ players that fit his style and rid his roster of Dave Leitao era players who were regularly the most turnover plagued teams in the league.

Shocking I know.
 
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lol . . . ASSUME Illinois had more talent? Think that had anything to do with that Elite 8 run?

Robert and Juwan are comparable to . . . whom?

Cook - 1999 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #20 in the nation; Morgan - Not ranked by RSCI, ranked 109th by Rivals, 90th at the time of his IU commitment by 24/7.

Frank Williams - 1998 Illinois Mr. Basketball, McDonald's All-American, RSCI #21 in the nation; Johnson - RSCI #46 (tie)

Sergio McClain - 1997 Illinois Mr. Basketball,1st player to start on 4 straight state championship teams in Illinois history (Jabari Parker recently became the only other one), Newkirk . . . really?

But, hey, Archie also had Freddie McSwain when he took over . . .

Self built the roster that Bruce Weber took to the national title game. Self was an elite, proven coach when he went to Kansas.
 
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Hey Jackass,

You conveniently forget that Bennett's first four years at Virginia his offense via Kenpom were ranked 89th, 159th, 133rd, and 83rd? Not very easy transitioning that style of offense. You know what happened when he got his players in place? Once he got his own recruits in place and they became upperclassmen, turnovers went way down and efficiency went up. Why? Because he recruited high basketball IQ players that fit his style and rid his roster of Dave Leitao era players who were regularly the most turnover plagued teams in the league.

Shocking I know.

Archie was at Dayton for 6 years. They were all his players and he never had a top 30 offense.
 
Self built the roster that Bruce Weber took to the national title game. Self was an elite, proven coach when he went to Kansas.

He was not an elite coach...yet. If making two Elite 8's makes a coach elite then the profession is more than watered down. He was a .500 coach at Oral Roberts for 4 years, caught fire at Tulsa in year 3 and lucked into the Illinois job when Lon Kruger bolted late to coach the Hawks. He inherited a team with two future first round picks and rode them to an Elite 8. Landed a monster class with Dee Brown, James Augustine, and Deron Williams but left for Kansas after their freshman year. Was he a very good coach and A+ hire for Kansas? Absolutely. Was he a proven and established elite coach? No chance.
 
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You’re correct. I thought they were ranked 32nd that year. It really changes my argument. He never had a top 27 offense;)

Yeah and he did it with 200 and 300 level rated players. Offense will be significantly more efficient this year with Phinisee in his second year who had a 2:1 A/TO ratio as a true freshman and a competent and experienced front court rotation.
 
Yeah and he did it with 200 and 300 level rated players. Offense will be significantly more efficient this year with Phinisee in his second year who had a 2:1 A/TO ratio as a true freshman and a competent and experienced front court rotation.

They control for strength of schedule and most of his games at Dayton were against teams with 200 and 300 level rated players. His two highest rated offenses were his first two years at Dayton. Also, Phin, was an efficient offense player last year. He shot 36% from the field.
 
Uh wrong.

2013 they had the 28th rated offense via kenpom

https://kenpom.com/index.php?y=2013&s=RankAdjOE
I have that person on ignore too but UD had a very good offense that year. His offenses in other years was pretty good too. Have to remember there are over 300 teams in DIV I ball so being 28 is very good and being in the 60s is good too when you combine it with very good defense. He'll have better players at IU and I expect his offense and his defense will be better than they ever were at UD soon.
 
They control for strength of schedule and most of his games at Dayton were against teams with 200 and 300 level rated players. His two highest rated offenses were his first two years at Dayton.

Good catch. They were rated 29th in 2012 as well.

So we go from, "Archie has never had a top 30 rated offensive team" to "has had 2 top 30 rated offensive teams but it doesn't change my argument".

You're a trip dude.
 
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