Perimeter Offense

[iubhounds]

I'm confused. Seriously, I'd like to know what constitutes running a "perimeter offense", one that focuses on 20+ three point shot attempt per game. I know that most of the time IU's offense is motionless, standing, dribbling and to some ... to much feeding the ball inside. As I watch other teams play, they all do the high pick and roll, they all have their 7' center at the tip of the circle with the ball in his hands, they all spread the court and they all kick out for the 3 on most fastbreaks.

So I need to know ... what does IU need to do different to run this "perimeter offense" of modern day college basketball?

It was interesting to see as I watched the 1976 Championship game the other night ... I was shocked ... at least 4 players were jammed inside the lane and very few were outside. The 3 point line was not in affect yet and I know RMK made adjustments to that motion offense when they came out with that rule. I was still amazed though just how jammed up that lane was with 8 players (offense and defense). Different time I know but the point was how much different offenses have changed.

So enlighten me what changes does IU make to run a Perimeter Offense. I have watched Purdue some, not a lot unless they play IU, to see what they do ... dump it inside, high pick and roll, kick out for the 3 ... just like all other teams do, including IU. Even some teams run that 3 man weave at the top to create drives like Galloway does.

So clear up my confusion offensive experts ... I'm listening.

Also I never played basketball higher than the high school level ... but my dad was a HS coach so I know a little about the game for those that might assume different.

 

[T.M.P.]

I know that most of the time IU's offense is motionless, standing, dribbling

No you don't. You guys that keep saying that shit have no comprehension of what offense is. We run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces.

Quit ball watching and pay better attention to the whole court instead and do the same with other teams, the difference isn't the sets, it's the players in the set. We dribble no more than anyone else, and we stand around no more than anyone else.

Then do some research and learn some simple plays so you at least have a basic understanding what is being run.. This constant babbling about being motionless, or dribbling too much is bullshit. Almost every team out there runs variations of the same shit.. ..

We go to the interior because it's a strength, we don't get much on the perimeter because it's a huge weakness. The reason we don't get many outside shots is because some of the guys just can't shoot .. there's no magic wand +5 offensive system that's going to make poor shooters into good ones.

When you have two non shooters on the perimeter at all times it kinda limits the options available for offense and heightens the options available for the defenders.

Could it be better, probably but is it really any different in concept than a majority of teams, no.

Ball goes in equals good, ball doesn't equals bad ..*eyeroll*

 

[iubhounds]

No you don't. You guys that keep saying that shit have no comprehension of what offense is. We run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces.

Quit ball watching and pay better attention to the whole court instead and do the same with other teams, the difference isn't the sets, it's the players in the set. We dribble no more than anyone else, and we stand around no more than anyone else.

Then do some research and learn some simple plays so you at least have a basic understanding what is being run.. This constant babbling about being motionless, or dribbling too much is bullshit. Almost every team out there runs variations of the same shit.. ..

We go to the interior because it's a strength, we don't get much on the perimeter because it's a huge weakness. The reason we don't get many outside shots is because some of the guys just can't shoot .. there's no magic wand +5 offensive system that's going to make poor shooters into good ones.

When you have two non shooters on the perimeter at all times it kinda limits the options available for offense and heightens the options available for the defenders.

Could it be better, probably but is it really any different in concept than a majority of teams, no.

Ball goes in equals good, ball doesn't equals bad ..*eyeroll*

"we run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces"

THAT is what I said ... we run the same shit as everybody else!!! LOL

"As I watch other teams play, they all do the high pick and roll, they all have their 7' center at the tip of the circle with the ball in his hands, they all spread the court and they all kick out for the 3 on most fastbreaks. dump it inside, high pick and roll, kick out for the 3 ... just like all other teams do, including IU. Even some teams run that 3 man weave at the top to create drives like Galloway does."

You have to admit though when IU's offense is stagnate there is too much dribbling and too many standing and watching.

 

[iubhounds]

No you don't. You guys that keep saying that shit have no comprehension of what offense is. We run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces.

Quit ball watching and pay better attention to the whole court instead and do the same with other teams, the difference isn't the sets, it's the players in the set. We dribble no more than anyone else, and we stand around no more than anyone else.

Then do some research and learn some simple plays so you at least have a basic understanding what is being run.. This constant babbling about being motionless, or dribbling too much is bullshit. Almost every team out there runs variations of the same shit.. ..

We go to the interior because it's a strength, we don't get much on the perimeter because it's a huge weakness. The reason we don't get many outside shots is because some of the guys just can't shoot .. there's no magic wand +5 offensive system that's going to make poor shooters into good ones.

When you have two non shooters on the perimeter at all times it kinda limits the options available for offense and heightens the options available for the defenders.

Could it be better, probably but is it really any different in concept than a majority of teams, no.

Ball goes in equals good, ball doesn't equals bad ..*eyeroll*

I AGREE with what you say ... BUT ... I keep reading people on this forum and X that IU needs to shoot more 3's ... I have said in the past here and on X that it is hard to do for IU because they don't have a lot of good shooters, PLUS their strength is inside with the big 2. I DO watch away from the ball ...

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

"we run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces"

THAT is what I said ... we run the same shit as everybody else!!! LOL

"As I watch other teams play, they all do the high pick and roll, they all have their 7' center at the tip of the circle with the ball in his hands, they all spread the court and they all kick out for the 3 on most fastbreaks. dump it inside, high pick and roll, kick out for the 3 ... just like all other teams do, including IU. Even some teams run that 3 man weave at the top to create drives like Galloway does."

You have to admit though when IU's offense is stagnate there is too much dribbling and too many standing and watching.

What boggles my mind is how bad IU's bigs are at passing out of post double teams: it is like we don't even practice it.

 

[iubhounds]

What boggles my mind is how bad IU's bigs are at passing out of post double teams: it is like we don't even practice it.

And ... I hate the cross court pass ... that rarely works in college ball no matter how open he is.

 

[IUNorth]

No you don't. You guys that keep saying that shit have no comprehension of what offense is. We run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces.

Quit ball watching and pay better attention to the whole court instead and do the same with other teams, the difference isn't the sets, it's the players in the set. We dribble no more than anyone else, and we stand around no more than anyone else.

Then do some research and learn some simple plays so you at least have a basic understanding what is being run.. This constant babbling about being motionless, or dribbling too much is bullshit. Almost every team out there runs variations of the same shit.. ..

We go to the interior because it's a strength, we don't get much on the perimeter because it's a huge weakness. The reason we don't get many outside shots is because some of the guys just can't shoot .. there's no magic wand +5 offensive system that's going to make poor shooters into good ones.

When you have two non shooters on the perimeter at all times it kinda limits the options available for offense and heightens the options available for the defenders.

Could it be better, probably but is it really any different in concept than a majority of teams, no.

Ball goes in equals good, ball doesn't equals bad ..*eyeroll*

Waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too simplistic a take here.

We run short bursts of movement actions like Zoom, various types of ball screens, etc... But before and after that, there ABSOLUTELY is more standing, by more of our players, than well run, movement based offenses do.
No one runs a pure constant motion offense any more. But many of them get in to their movement and motions earlier, and continue it longer in to possessions than we do. Purdue has the most dominant big man college basketball has seen in many years, and nearly every one of his post opportunities comes off ball reversals, some sort of screening action, etc... They rarely, if ever, just post him and dump it down to him...like IU has many, many times each game the last few years. And I'm sure that's because the efficiency and effectiveness drops way off when they do that.

It HAS been VERY common for us to...walk the ball up the floor, dribble on one side early in a possession, dump it down to TJD or Malik...and then everyone spaces away and just stands still.

Do we run zoom action? Yes. Do we run ball screens with off the ball movement, Yes. Do we continue in to other movements when the 1st, 2nd options off that movement don't lead to a shot...often times no.

Making shots makes any offense look better...see JHS against Purdue last year. We torched them in both games with simple single action ball screens, more than anything else. And it didn't come off zoom action. It often didn't come of any ball reversals. But we've had very, very good basketball players on the roster since Woody arrived, and our offense has been mediocre, at best. Its NOT "just the players". That's a surprising and ridiculous take coming from a poster with your knowledge.

**further...what impressed me last night was later in that game, when our initial movements didn't produce a decent shot, we kept moving the ball and people side to side. That IS NOT normal for Woody coached teams to do that on an extended, regular basis.

 

[T.M.P.]

But we've had very, very good basketball players on the roster since Woody arrived, and our offense has been mediocre, at best. Its NOT "just the players". That's a surprising and ridiculous take coming from a poster with your knowledge.

It's really not worth arguing about but if someone pays me - I'll need a decent video editor and my hourly wage is 300 so maybe 450 bucks - I'll get the tapes out and break it down. Not serious .. (lol)

I don't think you get what I'm saying ..

The offense is limited because of the players available and how defenses can react to that. I didn't say it was good. I said it's limited because of the pieces available and though we've had some good players, shooting has been an issue since Crean left.

This offense would look a hell of a lot different if we had three serious perimeter threats in the backcourt instead of one. Right now the most efficient plays are Malik mid post and let him go or Trey in zoom or pnr. I wish Malik passed out more but his efficiency speaks for itself. Woodson will use a play over and over if it works.

Could the offense be better, yes. Could it be more imaginative, yes. Is it really that much different than anyone else, in concept, no. We run the same shit .. everyone basically runs the same shit.. but more balanced teams have more options and better spacing. Do we dribble more than most teams, no. Do we move less, maybe, but not that much.

Some teams do have more secondary action, you're correct.. Maybe they have more secondary action because they have players that can do something from it. When the ball goes to the perimeter, it's quite different for a defense if two of three perimeter players are unwilling or unable to shoot or so inconsistent that it's okay to gamble..

Then there's the lineups where we only have one scorer in. Yea, that offense will look like shit no matter what you run.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

It HAS been VERY common for us to...walk the ball up the floor, dribble on one side early in a possession, dump it down to TJD or Malik...and then everyone spaces away and just stands still.

I would say that this has been the main facet of IU's offense since Woody has been here, which is the biggest part of the problem of IU's offense and stagnation: way too post-centric and easy to guard. Big Ten coaches that know their ass from a hole in the ground have shut this down, and it isn't that hard to do. IU's bigs don't even know how to pass out of doubles, and their only option is to score: once again, too easy.

I agree about PU. PU obviously also has a boner for the post play (which is probably why they never do anything in March and adds to the Big Ten's issues as a conference), but they are way more creative than IU with their post play and movement/offense beyond the post. I'm not super impressed with PU's non-post players, but they do produce offense consistently.

If TMP wants to explain why Woody can't construct a roster for his offense and doesn't know how to adjust to his personnel after 3 years, he can. This is not a good, consistent offense: period. Way too much stagnation.

 

[IUNorth]

It's really not worth arguing about but if someone pays me - I'll need a decent video editor and my hourly wage is 300 so maybe 450 bucks - I'll get the tapes out and break it down. Not serious .. (lol)

I don't think you get what I'm saying ..

The offense is limited because of the players available and how defenses can react to that. I didn't say it was good. I said it's limited because of the pieces available and though we've had some good players, shooting has been an issue since Crean left.

This offense would look a hell of a lot different if we had three serious perimeter threats in the backcourt instead of one. Right now the most efficient plays are Malik mid post and let him go or Trey in zoom or pnr. I wish Malik passed out more but his efficiency speaks for itself. Woodson will use a play over and over if it works.

Could the offense be better, yes. Could it be more imaginative, yes. Is it really that much different than anyone else, in concept, no. We run the same shit .. everyone basically runs the same shit.. but more balanced teams have more options and better spacing. Do we dribble more than most teams, no. Do we move less, maybe, but not that much.

Some teams do have more secondary action, you're correct.. Maybe they have more secondary action because they have players that can do something from it. When the ball goes to the perimeter, it's quite different for a defense if two of three perimeter players are unwilling or unable to shoot or so inconsistent that it's okay to gamble..

Then there's the lineups where we only have one scorer in. Yea, that offense will look like shit no matter what you run.

It looked like crap his first two seasons as well, and we had JHS, Kopp, and a near 50% 3P shooting Trey last year...and Kopp and X and Stewart the year before... He's had capable shooters and scorers on the perimeter. He chose not to force them to run enough stuff that would create good, rhythm shooting opportunities. As a perimeter player, if you want to thrive for Woody, you better be able to 1)Have NBA level size and ball skills to get your own shots, either off ONE zoom action play, by pick and roll, or by just going one on one...or 2)Hope that the bigs put the ball right on you in catch and shoot spot up opportunities.

I think you'd waste a lot of time and money breaking it down. We do run similar stuff to others...seems like EVERYONE is running a version of Zoom these days...but what we do differently is have much longer lag times in between any sort of movement and/or motion. We have 2-3-4 guys for long stretches that quite literally stand still.

I love zoom action...everyone runs it for a reason. Last night was the first time I noticed us running it more than once in the same possession. Or starting it after we had moved the ball from side to side, instead of holding or dribbling out top for 6-8 seconds.

Some might say movement without purpose is wasting energy, why not just stand for a bit and catch your breath before running the purposeful "zoom action" or pick and roll? I see it like football teams that run a lot of pre snap motion. Its all about setting up the defense, messing with their reads, and getting your own guys moving and in a rhythm. Purdue runs 7-8 seconds of cutting and screening action, before the ultimate end result of dumping the ball down in to Edey. He's a monster, he could literally just walk down to the block, turn around, and they could look at him and lob it up to him, and he could catch the ball down there whenever he wants. That's essentially what we've done with TJD for a couple years, and often with Malik and Kelel this year. I strongly suspect Purdue runs all that "pre snap" action because they know it makes the ultimate play for Edey a lot easier and a lot more efficient.

We run a bunch of disjointed plays basically. Teams like Purdue run a coordinated, possession long, system that culminates in plays.

 

[iubhounds]

It looked like crap his first two seasons as well, and we had JHS, Kopp, and a near 50% 3P shooting Trey last year...and Kopp and X and Stewart the year before... He's had capable shooters and scorers on the perimeter. He chose not to force them to run enough stuff that would create good, rhythm shooting opportunities. As a perimeter player, if you want to thrive for Woody, you better be able to 1)Have NBA level size and ball skills to get your own shots, either off ONE zoom action play, by pick and roll, or by just going one on one...or 2)Hope that the bigs put the ball right on you in catch and shoot spot up opportunities.

I think you'd waste a lot of time and money breaking it down. We do run similar stuff to others...seems like EVERYONE is running a version of Zoom these days...but what we do differently is have much longer lag times in between any sort of movement and/or motion. We have 2-3-4 guys for long stretches that quite literally stand still.

I love zoom action...everyone runs it for a reason. Last night was the first time I noticed us running it more than once in the same possession. Or starting it after we had moved the ball from side to side, instead of holding or dribbling out top for 6-8 seconds.

Some might say movement without purpose is wasting energy, why not just stand for a bit and catch your breath before running the purposeful "zoom action" or pick and roll? I see it like football teams that run a lot of pre snap motion. Its all about setting up the defense, messing with their reads, and getting your own guys moving and in a rhythm. Purdue runs 7-8 seconds of cutting and screening action, before the ultimate end result of dumping the ball down in to Edey. He's a monster, he could literally just walk down to the block, turn around, and they could look at him and lob it up to him, and he could catch the ball down there whenever he wants. That's essentially what we've done with TJD for a couple years, and often with Malik and Kelel this year. I strongly suspect Purdue runs all that "pre snap" action because they know it makes the ultimate play for Edey a lot easier and a lot more efficient.

We run a bunch of disjointed plays basically. Teams like Purdue run a coordinated, possession long, system that culminates in plays.

I'll google it but ... what is 'zoom action" ... ... found it and the diagrams answered most of my questions on what IU does.

 

[T.M.P.]

instead of holding or dribbling out top for 6-8 seconds.

Sometimes that's due to one guy not being where they are supposed to be.

I'm done writing for the day, you made some good points, I appreciate the conversation it was interesting .. but I still think the players available decide more than the offensive sets used. And comparing the best team in the nation to our trash ... no points awarded..

There's an old basketball saying .. It's not the the Xs and Os .. it's the Jimmy's and Joes ..

or if you're a musician, it's not the kit it's the kat ..

 

[T.M.P.]

I'll google it but ... what is 'zoom action" ... ... found it and the diagrams answered most of my questions on what IU does.

Zoom < link to a fairly decent description .. I didn't look too hard and only scanned the article but it should do the job.

High or mid post handoff and screen to a player in motion to create separation from the defender to get them space to shoot or go downhill. Similar to a PnR in that the screener can roll, or pop ..

 

[IUNorth]

Sometimes that's due to one guy not being where they are supposed to be.

I'm done writing for the day, you made some good points, I appreciate the conversation it was interesting .. but I still think the players available decide more than the offensive sets used. And comparing the best team in the nation to our trash ... no points awarded..

There's an old basketball saying .. It's not the the Xs and Os .. it's the Jimmy's and Joes ..

or if you're a musician, it's not the kit it's the kat ..

ha ha...fair enough.

Like a lot of things IU bball related...I'm sure I'm focusing on the negative stuff a little too much at this point... whatever it is, the end of the OSU game stuck out to me as something different, and refreshing. And I think it was more than just hitting a couple threes.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

It looked like crap his first two seasons as well, and we had JHS, Kopp, and a near 50% 3P shooting Trey last year...and Kopp and X and Stewart the year before... He's had capable shooters and scorers on the perimeter. He chose not to force them to run enough stuff that would create good, rhythm shooting opportunities. As a perimeter player, if you want to thrive for Woody, you better be able to 1)Have NBA level size and ball skills to get your own shots, either off ONE zoom action play, by pick and roll, or by just going one on one...or 2)Hope that the bigs put the ball right on you in catch and shoot spot up opportunities.

I think you'd waste a lot of time and money breaking it down. We do run similar stuff to others...seems like EVERYONE is running a version of Zoom these days...but what we do differently is have much longer lag times in between any sort of movement and/or motion. We have 2-3-4 guys for long stretches that quite literally stand still.

I love zoom action...everyone runs it for a reason. Last night was the first time I noticed us running it more than once in the same possession. Or starting it after we had moved the ball from side to side, instead of holding or dribbling out top for 6-8 seconds.

Some might say movement without purpose is wasting energy, why not just stand for a bit and catch your breath before running the purposeful "zoom action" or pick and roll? I see it like football teams that run a lot of pre snap motion. Its all about setting up the defense, messing with their reads, and getting your own guys moving and in a rhythm. Purdue runs 7-8 seconds of cutting and screening action, before the ultimate end result of dumping the ball down in to Edey. He's a monster, he could literally just walk down to the block, turn around, and they could look at him and lob it up to him, and he could catch the ball down there whenever he wants. That's essentially what we've done with TJD for a couple years, and often with Malik and Kelel this year. I strongly suspect Purdue runs all that "pre snap" action because they know it makes the ultimate play for Edey a lot easier and a lot more efficient.

We run a bunch of disjointed plays basically. Teams like Purdue run a coordinated, possession long, system that culminates in plays.

"It's not my job to run plays for Miller Kopp." - Woody. This is when MK was shooting 45% from 3.

 

[kkott]

What boggles my mind is how bad IU's bigs are at passing out of post double teams: it is like we don't even practice it.

I thought that was the biggest improvement in TJD's game in his final year, but didn't think he was as willing or competent passer earlier in his career. He became a much better passer out of double teams. I don't think it's intuitive to a lot of post guys, as they're focused on thinking about how they can score.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

I thought that was the biggest improvement in TJD's game in his final year, but didn't think he was as willing or competent passer earlier in his career. He became a much better passer out of double teams. I don't think it's intuitive to a lot of post guys, as they're focused on thinking about how they can score.

True, TJD got better at it. Posts have to know how to pass out of the double team. Somebody is open: that is an offensive advantage and the whole idea of an offense! Just scoring in the post is one dimensional, not much of an offense, and easy to guard. How many times has TJD or Malik taken on 3-4 guys in a packed post? God forbid IU has multiple options on offense that makes life harder on the defense or somebody get an assist.

 

[iubhounds]

Zoom < link to a fairly decent description .. I didn't look too hard and only scanned the article but it should do the job.

High or mid post handoff and screen to a player in motion to create separation from the defender to get them space to shoot or go downhill. Similar to a PnR in that the screener can roll, or pop ..

Thanks for that explanation. The high to mid post handoff has always confused me, wondering "why".

 

[Bippy]

No you don't. You guys that keep saying that shit have no comprehension of what offense is. We run the same damn shit as everyone else, but with flawed pieces.

Quit ball watching and pay better attention to the whole court instead and do the same with other teams, the difference isn't the sets, it's the players in the set. We dribble no more than anyone else, and we stand around no more than anyone else.

Then do some research and learn some simple plays so you at least have a basic understanding what is being run.. This constant babbling about being motionless, or dribbling too much is bullshit. Almost every team out there runs variations of the same shit.. ..

We go to the interior because it's a strength, we don't get much on the perimeter because it's a huge weakness. The reason we don't get many outside shots is because some of the guys just can't shoot .. there's no magic wand +5 offensive system that's going to make poor shooters into good ones.

When you have two non shooters on the perimeter at all times it kinda limits the options available for offense and heightens the options available for the defenders.

Could it be better, probably but is it really any different in concept than a majority of teams, no.

Ball goes in equals good, ball doesn't equals bad ..*eyeroll*

WOW, that was the most objective and intelligent post I've seen here. And I honestly mean that.
What a pleasure to read something thoughtful and based on reason rather than emotion.
Thank you.

 

[TR32]

I would say that this has been the main facet of IU's offense since Woody has been here...
If TMP wants to explain why Woody can't construct a roster for his offense and doesn't know how to adjust to his personnel after 3 years, he can. This is not a good, consistent offense: period. Way too much stagnation.

Woodson does what NBA guys do, try to run iso with their beat players. The reason it doesn't work well in college is because the rosters turn over too quickly and in twrms of scoring options, teams are able to use help defenses to slow guys down. In the NBA you get eaten alive if you sag and help the way they do in college

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

Woodson does what NBA guys do, try to run iso with their beat players. The reason it doesn't work well in college is because the rosters turn over too quickly and in twrms of scoring options, teams are able to use help defenses to slow guys down. In the NBA you get eaten alive if you sag and help the way they do in college

It helps to have versatile players on offense (athletic, shooter, ability to create own shot, good dribbler), and it is up to the coach to recruit these types of players. Woody was a really good offensive player, so it confuses me why he can't recruit better offensive players. Jay Wright is one name that comes to mind who ran a really good 4 out, 1 in type of offense and did a good job recruiting for this system.

 

[ams66]

True, TJD got better at it. Posts have to know how to pass out of the double team. Somebody is open: that is an offensive advantage and the whole idea of an offense! Just scoring in the post is one dimensional, not much of an offense, and easy to guard. How many times has TJD or Malik taken on 3-4 guys in a packed post? God forbid IU has multiple options on offense that makes life harder on the defense or somebody get an assist.

Somebody is open but if they can't shoot might be better to power your way to the basket?