Palisades fire

[crazed_hoosier2]

I'm not saying anything.

I'm just pointing out that some of the cuts were to one time purchase items, civil positions that were already vacant and firefighters got a raise that wasn't in the budget in time to be confirmed.

OK. And it’s important to have all the relevant information.

I just don’t think this really refutes the crux of Crowley’s complaint. Having budget cuts doesn’t necessarily mean that the department’s budget as a whole went down. What the chief has been saying is that they’ve been deprived of critical resources that they’ve been begging for.

Whether or not those resources would be making a significant difference in outcomes here, I have no idea. Maybe they wouldn’t. But it still seems to me that LA is institutionally unprepared not only to reduce the risk posed by these fires, but to minimize their destruction when/if they do happen.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I think we see a thousand year fire, to put it in flood terminology. We saw cities in Indiana hammered by a thousand year flood, Columbus hospital was flooded out in 2008 as an example. We struggle when the black swan occurs.

I agree there probably should have been more done, more water towers on hills would be the best answer. Even more pumps to pump up to them.

But we aren't going to ever spend the money to defeat the 1000 year problem in an area as large as Southern California. These winds gusting to 100 just is more than we can really adequately fight. We can prepare for X, but know that 2X is going to be a problem. We can handle another Mt St Helen's, Yellowstone blows and we are just screwed.

 

[BradStevens]

My bad, Brad. That was really directed at crazed, who didn't want to answer a direct question about it and just opine vaguely. Sorry for being grouchy about it. I knew your heart was in the right place on that.

I get it. It must be stressful to even be near that much devastation. And rather than just watch it and take it all in, my mind went to thinking of fixing it to avoid thinking about the bad stuff. Men, am I right?

Here’s a partial answer: the salt is corrosive to the machinery, dampens the firefighting effect of the water, carries a charge that might be dangerous to the firefighters, and will run off into groundwater afterwards, perhaps making it unusable.

Here is why California can’t use ocean water to help fight the wildfires

Salt water can wreck a fire, but it can also wreck equipment and vegetation as well

www.the-independent.com

 

[Baller23Boogie]

OK. And it’s important to have all the relevant information.

I just don’t think this really refutes the crux of Crowley’s complaint. Having budget cuts doesn’t necessarily mean that the department’s budget as a whole went down. What the chief has been saying is that they’ve been deprived of critical resources that they’ve been begging for.

Whether or not those resources would be making a significant difference in outcomes here, I have no idea. Maybe they wouldn’t. But it still seems to me that LA is institutionally unprepared not only to reduce the risk posed by these fires, but to minimize their destruction when/if they do happen.

I'm sure there are things to certainly improve on, but I think 80+ miles an hour winds are something that no matter how much you prepare for, it's just game changing when it's all said and done.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

I think we see a thousand year fire, to put it in flood terminology. We saw cities in Indiana hammered by a thousand year flood, Columbus hospital was flooded out in 2008 as an example. We struggle when the black swan occurs.

I agree there probably should have been more done, more water towers on hills would be the best answer. Even more pumps to pump up to them.

But we aren't going to ever spend the money to defeat the 1000 year problem in an area as large as Southern California. These winds gusting to 100 just is more than we can really adequately fight. We can prepare for X, but know that 2X is going to be a problem. We can handle another Mt St Helen's, Yellowstone blows and we are just screwed.

I get it. Start with simply accepting defeat, instead of building the infrastructure to start with. I wouldn't expect any differnt from 1)the swamp 2) California 3) the left (unless they have control of the voting machines program). Nothing to see here. Just accept your shit being burnt down.

Oh, we can't ever walk on the moon so don't try... ooops.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I get it. Start with simply accepting defeat, instead of building the infrastructure to start with. I wouldn't expect any differnt from 1)the swamp 2) California 3) the left (unless they have control of the voting machines program). Nothing to see here. Just accept your shit being burnt down.

Oh, we can't ever walk on the moon so don't try... ooops.

You must be talking about yourself. You know, one of those who pretends AGW doesn't exist because you don't want to be bothered to do anything to fight it. Get that fricking redwood out of your eye before discussing my mote.

 

[Univee2]

What cracker jack media site reported such a firing in the first plenty?

I believe it was the Daily Mail.

 

[jet812]

How so?

We're all quarterbacks on Monday.

The FD Chief has said that they have not been given the resources needed to fight the fire. The mayor has proposed tens of millions in cuts. Which is wrong?

 

[jet812]

Budget cuts have impacts? And here I thought there was all kinds of waste to be rooted out of government.

With all due respect, I don't think you have any clue about what Karen Bass is doing or not doing in Los Angeles and I don't see anything other than political hackery in your assessment.

It doesn’t matter where the cuts come from? Either no departments have waste or all do? Interesting take..🤔

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

You must be talking about yourself. You know, one of those who pretends AGW doesn't exist because you don't want to be bothered to do anything to fight it. Get that fricking redwood out of your eye before discussing my mote.

Accepting Self defeat is something that I don't aspire to accept.
There is an identified reason for failure. Go fix it! It's only impossible if one never tries. Cali has set a stake that they are ok with Billions of $$ of damage, without attempts to cure it, are ok. Lets trade Greenland for CAli! That whole mentality can go away and it won't be soon enough.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Accepting Self defeat is something that I don't aspire to accept.
There is an identified reason for failure. Go fix it! It's only impossible if one never tries. Cali has set a stake that they are ok with Billions of $$ of damage, without attempts to cure it, are ok. Lets trade Greenland for CAli! That whole mentality can go away and it won't be soon enough.

I appreciate your answer, in a lot of areas it makes sense. But we don't build damns to hold back any conceivable rain. What level of earthquake is your home built to withstand? Can it withstand an F5 tornado? An EF3 will pretty much destroy any standard built Hoosier home. If I were to suggest we should upgrade code, it would be rejected as costing too much. Using screws instead of nails alone would make a big difference.

There is more that could be done, but are you going to agree homes in the Midwest should be built/retrofitted for earthquakes for when New Madrid goes next? That is an easy one, we know it will sometime. Heck, I have earthquake insurance and I know from my agent that is very rare in southern Indiana.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

What way do you think is a good option to get quickly water three miles inland from the ocean to the Palisades fire that fire officials aren't already doing? There are already helicopter teams dropping ocean water on the Palisades fire. It's much further inland to the Altadena fire.

As the community rebuilds, there has to be a way to build with fire-retardant materials, isn’t there?

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I think we see a thousand year fire, to put it in flood terminology. We saw cities in Indiana hammered by a thousand year flood, Columbus hospital was flooded out in 2008 as an example. We struggle when the black swan occurs.

I agree there probably should have been more done, more water towers on hills would be the best answer. Even more pumps to pump up to them.

But we aren't going to ever spend the money to defeat the 1000 year problem in an area as large as Southern California. These winds gusting to 100 just is more than we can really adequately fight. We can prepare for X, but know that 2X is going to be a problem. We can handle another Mt St Helen's, Yellowstone blows and we are just screwed.

I mean, we know for a certainty there is a piece of space rock out there with our names on it somewhere. What are we doing? I don't think Bruce Willis or Robert Duvall are in any shape to save us, much less this guy...

 

[twenty02]

I get it. Start with simply accepting defeat, instead of building the infrastructure to start with. I wouldn't expect any differnt from 1)the swamp 2) California 3) the left (unless they have control of the voting machines program). Nothing to see here. Just accept your shit being burnt down.

Oh, we can't ever walk on the moon so don't try... ooops.

Bet you were very bad at math in school

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

I appreciate your answer, in a lot of areas it makes sense. But we don't build damns to hold back any conceivable rain. What level of earthquake is your home built to withstand? Can it withstand an F5 tornado? An EF3 will pretty much destroy any standard built Hoosier home. If I were to suggest we should upgrade code, it would be rejected as costing too much. Using screws instead of nails alone would make a big difference.

There is more that could be done, but are you going to agree homes in the Midwest should be built/retrofitted for earthquakes for when New Madrid goes next? That is an easy one, we know it will sometime. Heck, I have earthquake insurance and I know from my agent that is very rare in southern Indiana.

Those are all reasonable concerns, but they don't mean anything in contrast to the opportunity to blame a Democratic politician for something.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

Accepting Self defeat is something that I don't aspire to accept.
There is an identified reason for failure. Go fix it! It's only impossible if one never tries. Cali has set a stake that they are ok with Billions of $$ of damage, without attempts to cure it, are ok. Let’s trade Greenland for CAli! That whole mentality can go away and it won't be soon enough.

I’m completely lost.

 

[BadWakeboarder]

The FD Chief has said that they have not been given the resources needed to fight the fire. The mayor has proposed tens of millions in cuts. Which is wrong?

Usually somewhere in the middle.

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

I’m completely lost.

This is common.

 

[BradStevens]

Accepting Self defeat is something that I don't aspire to accept.
There is an identified reason for failure. Go fix it! It's only impossible if one never tries. Cali has set a stake that they are ok with Billions of $$ of damage, without attempts to cure it, are ok. Lets trade Greenland for CAli! That whole mentality can go away and it won't be soon enough.

"It's only impossible if one never tries."

That quote from Ric Ocasek?

 

[The Original Happy Goat]

"It's only impossible if one never tries."

That quote from Ric Ocasek?

Or someone who tried to patent a perpetual motion machine.

 

[jet812]

Usually somewhere in the middle.

Both are wrong then. That tracks.

 

[twenty02]

I’m completely lost.

Your first mistake was attempting to read it.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I appreciate your answer, in a lot of areas it makes sense. But we don't build damns to hold back any conceivable rain. What level of earthquake is your home built to withstand? Can it withstand an F5 tornado? An EF3 will pretty much destroy any standard built Hoosier home. If I were to suggest we should upgrade code, it would be rejected as costing too much. Using screws instead of nails alone would make a big difference.

There is more that could be done, but are you going to agree homes in the Midwest should be built/retrofitted for earthquakes for when New Madrid goes next? That is an easy one, we know it will sometime. Heck, I have earthquake insurance and I know from my agent that is very rare in southern Indiana.

I think we see a thousand year fire, to put it in flood terminology. We saw cities in Indiana hammered by a thousand year flood, Columbus hospital was flooded out in 2008 as an example. We struggle when the black swan occurs.

I agree there probably should have been more done, more water towers on hills would be the best answer. Even more pumps to pump up to them.

But we aren't going to ever spend the money to defeat the 1000 year problem in an area as large as Southern California. These winds gusting to 100 just is more than we can really adequately fight. We can prepare for X, but know that 2X is going to be a problem. We can handle another Mt St Helen's, Yellowstone blows and we are just screwed.

These are legitimate questions and issues. But recent California politics and policy makers did not apply reasonable standards to address them.

I take as true the charges that LA cut back firefighting funding. I take as true that the state cut back funds to manage forests. I take as true the severe limitations California placed on prescribed burns and other fire mitigation efforts because of environmental and pollution concerns.

These were all mistakes. The consequences of these mistakes were foreseeable and should have been factored into policy. It doesn’t appear that they were.

California allowed massive development in the scenic and beautiful areas of its coastal mountains. This was all done during the go go California years of the 50’s to 80’s. These are high fire hazard areas. After this massive development, California politics changed and it not only became left wing but very left wing. Strict environmental laws and regulations were imposed. The California Coastal Commission weilded its restrictive power. The infrastructure improvements and forest maintenance in high hazard areas ran into regulatory road blocks. Funding priorities changed as mentioned above.

The conflagration we see today was foreseeable and inevitable . There is obviously no way to prevent all wild fires. But given the very high-hazard development that is a California staple, fire mitigation should always be at the top of the priority list. It doesn’t appear that it was. Maybe the losses would not have been as devastating.

 

[dbmhoosier]

Great listen here. Unbelievable how completely incompetent that state is.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

These are legitimate questions and issues. But recent California politics and policy makers did not apply reasonable standards to address them.

I take as true the charges that LA cut back firefighting funding. I take as true that the state cut back funds to manage forests. I take as true the severe limitations California placed on prescribed burns and other fire mitigation efforts because of environmental and pollution concerns.

These were all mistakes. The consequences of these mistakes were foreseeable and should have been factored into policy. It doesn’t appear that they were.

California allowed massive development in the scenic and beautiful areas of its coastal mountains. This was all done during the go go California years of the 50’s to 80’s. These are high fire hazard areas. After this massive development, California politics changed and it not only became left wing but very left wing. Strict environmental laws and regulations were imposed. The California Coastal Commission weilded its restrictive power. The infrastructure improvements and forest maintenance in high hazard areas ran into regulatory road blocks. Funding priorities changed as mentioned above.

The conflagration we see today was foreseeable and inevitable . There is obviously no way to prevent all wild fires. But given the very high-hazard development that is a California staple, fire mitigation should always be at the top of the priority list. It doesn’t appear that it was. Maybe the losses would not have been as devastating.

There are legitimate concerns and they will be investigated. Often the thinking in mid-crisis doesn't hold up.

One point, you mentioned California's "go-go" years. They had unconstrained growth. They had to start constraining it. Doubtless those constraints raise housing costs.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

There are legitimate concerns and they will be investigated. Often the thinking in mid-crisis doesn't hold up.

One point, you mentioned California's "go-go" years. They had unconstrained growth. They had to start constraining it. Doubtless those constraints raise housing costs.

Investigations are okay for operational failures, and it seems there are some of those.

I don’t see the point of investigating systematic policy choices.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

in contrast to the opportunity to blame a Democratic politician

Or give them an automatic free pass on everything. "Oh, it's a Dem? Well shucks, it isn't really that bad"

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

These are some of the well-known landmarks damaged in the California fires

The blazes have destroyed thousands of structures, including homes, businesses and schools.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Spartans9312]

There are legitimate concerns and they will be investigated. Often the thinking in mid-crisis doesn't hold up.

One point, you mentioned California's "go-go" years. They had unconstrained growth. They had to start constraining it. Doubtless those constraints raise housing costs.

One of the main things that needs done is….controlled burns. It’s crazy that people are not 100% in agreement.

 

[dbmhoosier]

He finally did something right.

 

[Lucy01]

He finally did something right.

View embedded media

Newsom knows that the victims won’t be able to buy material to rebuild. Due to a shortage.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

One of the main things that needs done is….controlled burns. It’s crazy that people are not 100% in agreement.

They do have prescribed burns. There are a lot of issues that need weighed. LA struggles with air quality, working prescribed burns around bad air days I suspect is tricky

The Palisades fire is in chaparal which the forestry management person says needs burned every 30-130 years with coastal areas like Palisades on the high end.

Could More Controlled Burns Have Stopped the L.A. Fires?

They can be an effective wildfire prevention tool — but not always.

heatmap.news

In articles I have read, CO hit it when he discussed CA's long ago boom. People built very expensive homes in beautiful areas. They want that natural look. Even if the land is state owned, they fight burns. But in some cases, the community owns the land and that makes it really tough for the state to come into their land and burn.

You can see that in the article below. Along with the fact the National Parks Service stopped burns early this year to prepare to fight fires. That may have been wrong, but these fires haven't started on NPS land.

LA Fires Renew Debate Over Prescribed Burns and Fire Preparedness in California | KQED

The debate over controlled burns has gained new urgency, with experts arguing for more fire-resilient community planning to reduce fire risk in California.

www.kqed.org

 

[Marvin the Martian]

He finally did something right.

View embedded media

That makes sense, a chance to force fire protection is being turned down guaranteeing this will happen again in 50 years.

 

[Spartans9312]

They do have prescribed burns. There are a lot of issues that need weighed. LA struggles with air quality, working prescribed burns around bad air days I suspect is tricky

The Palisades fire is in chaparal which the forestry management person says needs burned every 30-130 years with coastal areas like Palisades on the high end.

Could More Controlled Burns Have Stopped the L.A. Fires?

They can be an effective wildfire prevention tool — but not always.

heatmap.news

In articles I have read, CO hit it when he discussed CA's long ago boom. People built very expensive homes in beautiful areas. They want that natural look. Even if the land is state owned, they fight burns. But in some cases, the community owns the land and that makes it really tough for the state to come into their land and burn.

You can see that in the article below. Along with the fact the National Parks Service stopped burns early this year to prepare to fight fires. That may have been wrong, but these fires haven't started on NPS land.

LA Fires Renew Debate Over Prescribed Burns and Fire Preparedness in California | KQED

The debate over controlled burns has gained new urgency, with experts arguing for more fire-resilient community planning to reduce fire risk in California.

www.kqed.org

Like I said…the folks fighting controlled burns are ridiculous. It’s really funny if they are “environmentalists”….it should be #1 from the southern piney woods to throughout the West.

 

[Spartans9312]

Using the word “leftists” in the tweet causes people to dismiss or agree out of hand but….Rand asks good questions

 

[dbmhoosier]

Sounds like he’s coming.

 

[Lucy01]

Sounds like he’s coming.

View embedded media

I bet Trump had a new grandchild he is going to visit while he’s there!