One conservative’s argument for a Harris vote

[crazed_hoosier2]

Actually, they were saying that Trump would be surrounded by smart people to control him in 2016. Search it here.

So…Never Trumpers in 2016 weren’t saying that he’d cause WW3 (or whatever)?

Yes they were. The hyperbole about Trump was off the charts then as now.

Don’t get me wrong: ultimately I’ve ended up at the same place they have. But mostly for other reasons than the breathless stuff about Russia and all that. I’ve never bought into that hysteria.

So I don’t think the world will come crashing down if he’s elected again. But he does have some really bad policy ideas - just as his opponent does. And that’s why I can’t see a case to vote for either one of them. I’m just hoping for divided government and gridlock, whoever wins the presidency.

 

[BradStevens]

I don’t beleive Trump would do more damage than Harris would. I think they’d both be unacceptably bad for the country.

Which one would be more bad, I can’t say. But neither of them clear the bar.

As such, it’s perfectly rational to vote for neither one.

That argument is a rational one. There can be rational arguments on both sides of a position.

Which one is correct, often times, will indeed depend on the truth value of the underlying premises. But, again, that does not make the losing argument an irrational one.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Mark my words. This term he’ll be inhibited by relief, gerd, gout and attendant restless sleep, golf, and the accelerated aging process

You’re gambling,

 

[snarlcakes]

That's an unfair summary of his argument on the linked podcast. And he gives Trump his due for various accomplishments while in office.

You really think I listened to Frum’s whiny ass on a Podcast? Come on Brad. I don’t have time for that shit. I still have sex and Bitcoin.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

That's an unfair summary of his argument on the linked podcast. And he gives Trump his due for various accomplishments while in office.

Yeah, despite being off the Trump train…I don’t regret voting for him before.

I was primarily interested in getting a court that would do…well, pretty much what the court has been doing.

Given there was one seat open in 2016 and Ginsburg was in bad health, I thought it was kind of crazy for conservatives to not vote for Trump in that election.

I still do. The Supreme Court, unfortunately, has become the single most important and influential institution in our country. Too much at stake there. So Trump releasing that list of potential nominees should’ve given any wary conservative enough comfort to cast a vote for him.

 

[BradStevens]

But we don’t know how this one would turn out.

My point is that this is why this particular argument doesn’t seem to be swaying many people. They made it before…and this time are only left to argue “I know we said the same thing last time. But we really mean it this time.”

Who is the "they" and the "we?" Exact same individuals?

 

[BradStevens]

You really think I listened to Frum’s whiny ass on a Podcast? Come on Brad. I don’t have time for that shit. I still have sex and Bitcoin.

Well for the rest of us who aren't having sex--I know, I know, it's just me--we have podcasts to keep us warm at night.

 

[DANC]

So…Never Trumpers in 2016 weren’t saying that he’d cause WW3 (or whatever)?

Yes they were. The hyperbole about Trump was off the charts then as now.

Don’t get me wrong: ultimately I’ve ended up at the same place they have. But mostly for other reasons than the breathless stuff about Russia and all that. I’ve never bought into that hysteria.

So I don’t think the world will come crashing down if he’s elected again. But he does have some really bad policy ideas - just as his opponent does. And that’s why I can’t see a case to vote for either one of them. I’m just hoping for divided government and gridlock, whoever wins the presidency.

Don't forget the worldwide Depression and stock market crash that would occur if he was elected....

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

What conservative who holds their nose, would do so to vote for Harris? They would hold it to vote for Trump as they did to vote for Dole, McCain, both Bushes, Romney, etc

I had no reason to hold my nose to vote for any of them. Also Reagan. Why would any Republican hold his nose to do that? Be specific.

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

That argument is a rational one. There can be rational arguments on both sides of a position.

Which one is correct, often times, will indeed depend on the truth value of the underlying premises. But, again, that does not make the losing argument an irrational one.

My beef with Frum’s argument is that he made it upon a couple of premises that are just flat wrong, in my view.

I do not think “moderate” Kamala is the real Kamala. And I also do not think the far left is abandoning or otherwise being cast off from the Democratic Party.

But for some shrewd political cat-herding in South Carolina, along with consolidation among party leadership, Bernie Sanders likely would’ve become the Democratic nominee.

That’s why I said that, if Kamala loses this election, there’s likely going to be some reckoning afterwards that could look similar to the reckoning the Republicans began having after McCain lost. And I’m sure that a big part of it will be centered around her decision to abandon things like single-payer healthcare and embrace things like border security out of near-term political expediency.

None of those grievances are being aired now for obvious reasons. But if she loses — and she well may — then watch for them.

And I wouldn’t be putting my money on Frum’s vision of a Democratic Party that is exorcised of its left wing.

 

[hookyIU1990]

Which one are you choosing?

Neither. Why would you vote for someone who is just making things worse?

It has zero effect beyond J7

I’m really tired of the whole lesser of evils argument. We’ve heard that for decades. I think it would be very therapeutic for our sick politics if we can make a positive case for a candidate.

Voting for the lesser of two evils has put us in this spot. Keep voting that way and then you can act dismayed about where the country is and bitch about economic and social issues.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

No...your actions tell everyone what you are.

Weak.

 

[DANC]

My beef with Frum’s argument is that he made it upon a couple of premises that are just flat wrong, in my view.

I do not think “moderate” Kamala is the real Kamala. And I also do not think the far left is abandoning or otherwise being cast off from the Democratic Party.

But for some shrewd political cat-herding in South Carolina, along with consolidation among party leadership, Bernie Sanders likely would’ve become the Democratic nominee.

That’s why I said that, if Kamala loses this election, there’s likely going to be some reckoning afterwards that could look similar to the reckoning the Republicans began having after McCain lost. And I’m sure that a big part of it will be centered around her decision to abandon things like single-payer healthcare and embrace things like border security out of near-term political expediency.

None of those grievances are being aired now for obvious reasons. But if she loses — and she well may — then watch for them.

And I wouldn’t be putting my money on Frum’s vision of a Democratic Party that is exorcised of its left wing.

All Dems - all of them - know if they run on what they truly believe, they will lose and lose big.

The MO is to say the moderate thing in the campaign and take a hard left after inauguration day.

 

[hookyIU1990]

I had no reason to hold my nose to vote for any of them. Also Reagan. Why would any Republican hold his nose to do that? Be specific.

Stop the gibberish. You've said you're going to write in someone. What's Reagan got to do with anything I've said about this election?

 

[crazed_hoosier2]

Who is the "they" and the "we?" Exact same individuals?

Generally speaking, yes.

I was listening to Tim Miller of The Bulwark (formerly worked with McCain and Jeb Bush) saying this. So you can just put his name in there.

He’s not super well-known among the NeverTrumper guys. But I do remember him making these same warnings about Trump in 2016.

He works for Bill Kristol. You could use his name in there, too. There were gobs of nutty, wild admonitions made about the prospect of Trump winning in 2016.

 

[BradStevens]

All Dems - all of them - know if they run on what they truly believe, they will lose and lose big.

The MO is to say the moderate thing in the campaign and take a hard left after inauguration day.

Nope. There are a lot of Dems (a minority of the party, but still a lot more than zero) who think if they ran Bernie, he would win. And Bernie, say what you will, is up front about what he believes.

 

[stollcpa]

Well, we could get together and let you kick my ass at golf 72-90. I’d still think I was rationally right and you’d think the opposite. 😎

It would be a great time to beat my ass at golf. I had a good run of 74, 79, 69, 74, 81, 76 and 79. So I get my index to 2.2 and the next six rounds I’ve played like a beginner and have broken 85 only once. Oh by the way after that great run I changed from PXG irons to Callaway Apex Irons. I thought the new irons would get me to the Senior Tour. 😂 What a dummy! Lol.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Also, from a conservative perspective it’s painfully obvious Trump was a much better President than Biden and Trump is a better candidate than Harris. Frum sold out to support a terrible candidate who even liberals don’t like🤣 All because he wants to throw a hissy fit like a child.

Frum was a conservative probably before you were born, You MAGAs are upstarts and pretty much assholes across the board.

 

[DANC]

Nope. There are a lot of Dems (a minority of the party, but still a lot more than zero) who think if they ran Bernie, he would win. And Bernie, say what you will, is up front about what he believes.

Yes, you're right about Bernie and he's respected for that.

OK, all Democrats except Bernie. And every one of them knows Bernie doesn't stand a chance in hell of actually getting elected President.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

Hmm, I’ll have to think about that one. I think I can see what you’re saying. But it’s also true that a line was crossed that day (and I don’t just mean in the sense of the nutcases storming the Capitol) that, to my knowledge, had never been crossed before.

And there is absolutely something to be said for preserving norms — especially something as sacred and foundational as the peaceful transfer of power.

Now, I’ve said for a long time that I don’t think we were in any real danger of Trump taking power in January 2021 rather than Biden….even if the House had failed to certify the electors. I think that threat has been exaggerated. And that is because I firmly believe that our institutions are strong enough to withstand such an odious and illicit lunge for power.

But that doesn’t change the fact that it was an odious and illicit lunge for power….the likes of which we’ve never seen.

What Trump tried to do there was unforgivable.

I certainly don’t condone any of Trumps post election conduct. I criticized all of it on this forum. All of it was a stain on our history including the second impeachment and rigged select committee. Trumps pettiness in connection with that election damaged the country and damaged his ability to govern should he serve a second term. But for that, I think he would be 10 points ahead. He squandered a lot of political capital . That was a large reason why I supported Haley with my vote and credit card. I agree with your exaggeration point.

Taking all of that into consideration, I’m still voting for him. I sense that he has mellowed a lot, some call that old age. He still has good ideas.about a lot of things. He was actually quite moderate in how he governed. Yeah, his campaign schtick is boorish and unappealing , but we on this forum are by no means typical voters. All that being said, that McDonalds appearance was genius, especially when compared to Kamala. Trump relates to people in ways she can’t.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

It would be a great time to beat my ass at golf. I had a good run of 74, 79, 69, 74, 81, 76 and 79. So I get my index to 2.2 and the next six rounds I’ve played like a beginner and have broken 85 only once. Oh by the way after that great run I changed from PXG irons to Callaway Apex Irons. I thought the new irons would get me to the Senior Tour. 😂 What a dummy! Lol.

You’re good. I was a 6,5 index and getting better in 2007 when I was sent to my last ship in 2007. By 2009 I was around 15 and haven’t been better than 11 since. Now that I’m retired-retired I plan to practice and get back to single digit index. Distance is the big obstacle because I could hit 300 yard drives in 2007 and if I crush it now I might get 250. And it’s not straighter. Different game.

 

[hoosboot]

We residents of small communities have no idea what you all deal with in big blue cities.

It's hard for anxious bedwetters to make it in the big city, but it's a great place to raise kids. So many amazing opportunities for them to experience and explore.

 

[stollcpa]

You’re good. I was a 6,5 index and getting better in 2007 when I was sent to my last ship in 2007. By 2009 I was around 15 and haven’t been better than 11 since. Now that I’m retired-retired I plan to practice and get back to single digit index. Distance is the big obstacle because I could hit 300 yard drives in 2007 and if I crush it now I might get 250. And it’s not straighter. Different game.

Golf is a great game! You can play a lifetime. I love the competition. I’d play a tournament every week if there was a local amateur tour where you could compete like the professional tours. My favorite times in golf are competing in team events with by son. Damn, it’s the best!

Get a professional fitting. I think you would be shocked what the right equipment will do for your game.

 

[Baller23Boogie]

Of course I do. You vote for a progressive you’re a progressive.

That settles it then.

Every vote for Trump definitely means that person is MAGA, since that's what that person is voting for.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Don't forget the worldwide Depression and stock market crash that would occur if he was elected....

I don’t recall any concern about that. Given your history, I’d bet on you lying about it.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Stop the gibberish. You've said you're going to write in someone. What's Reagan got to do with anything I've said about this election?

You said you’d have to hold your nose to vote for several Reagan style Republicans that you listed.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Just as there were no never Bideners, I’ve never encountered a never Harriser.

You ever wonder why that is?

Because they care more about winning than anything else.

And don’t give me this “well, Trump is different” bs.

Biden was a f*****g vegetable for at least a year before he dropped out and I still don’t know of anyone who said they wouldn’t vote for him because of it.

Go back and look.

"Turn the page"

That's the White House message regarding Biden's debate debacle last week. The problem with the message is that you can't turn the page on age. The unfortunate reality is that Father Time eventually catches up with everyone. That's happened with Biden. If it was a cold, fatigue from recent...

indiana.forums.rivals.com

 

[mcmurtry66]

That settles it then.

Every vote for Trump definitely means that person is MAGA, since that's what that person is voting for.

It means they’re voting for the Republican nominee and the policies promoted. So yes. You vote for progressive policies you’re a progressive

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Conservative Aloha hates Trump so much he’s fine risking two liberal socialists running this country and democrats controlling the House and Senate. That’s total irrational and irresponsible thought in my conservative humble opinion.

Aloha has never been rational when it comes to Trump.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Frum was a conservative probably before you were born, You MAGAs are upstarts and pretty much assholes across the board.

Lmao we won’t vote for progressives tho.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Aloha has never been rational when it comes to Trump.

I’ve always been rational and objective about Trump. It never occurs to you MAGAs that your loyalty to him is irrational. It really is.

 

[snarlcakes]

My beef with Frum’s argument is that he made it upon a couple of premises that are just flat wrong, in my view.

I do not think “moderate” Kamala is the real Kamala. And I also do not think the far left is abandoning or otherwise being cast off from the Democratic Party.

Frum’s a grifter and full of shit. Harris couldn’t nominate a popular Governor, in the most important swing state, because he was Jewish. Democrats haven’t abandoned the far left and still cater to it.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Aloha has never been rational when it comes to Trump.

I’ve always been rational and objective about Trump. It never occurs to you MAGAs that your loyalty to him is irrational. It really is.

We’re not overcome by personalities and emotions. We can evaluate outcomes. The messenger is of little moment. Progressives are an insidious cancer to this country. They rot it out from the inside. From cities and public safety to schools and businesses to what we stand for as a country. Their philosophy erodes aspirations and incentives and the desire to work hard and create. Nothing will kill a country like equality of outcomes. F why bother. Everyone might as well suck the gov teat

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

We’re not overcome by personalities and emotions. We can evaluate outcomes. The messenger is of little moment. Progressives are an insidious cancer to this country. They rot it out from the inside. From cities and public safety to schools and businesses to what we stand for as a country. Their philosophy erodes aspirations and incentives and the desire to work hard and create. Nothing will kill a country like equality of outcomes. F why bother. Everyone might as well suck the gov teat

You are all emotions and you know it. **** your emotions! 😎

 

[mcmurtry66]

You are all emotions and you know it. **** your emotions! 😎

You can’t respond to policy differences. You can’t respond to data. Why? Because you’re a victim of your emotions. You can’t think clearly. You’re like a child really. Having a tantrum. Trump broke you

We’ve had four years of trump. We saw year one what radical progressives do. We don’t want that.

 

[mcmurtry66]

You are all emotions and you know it. **** your emotions! 😎

Can you imagine what radical lunatic progressive Harris will want on the court. Good Lord. These people are dangerous.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

You can’t respond to policy differences. You can’t respond to data. Why? Because you’re a victim of your emotions. You can’t think clearly. You’re like a child really. Having a tantrum. Trump broke you

It’s simple. Trump is not fit for the office. I’m not gambling that Vance, Congress and others will keep his mental instability and irrational behavior under control.

 

[Ohio Guy]

I was a Bob Knight fan. I definitely rooted for Texas Tech and loved watching them play, but I have never stopped being an IU fan.

Edit to add that I have a Texas Tech flag which I flew during the Bob Knight era when TT played and it didn't conflict with IU, but I haven't had a reason to fly it since Knight retired.

I remember watching some Texas Texh games, but save for a few players, I couldn’t tell you much about those Bob Knight teams.

It wasn’t like the IU teams from the early 80s to 2000 when I could tell you a fair amount about every guy on the roster. I loved watching a lot of those IU teams.

 

[snarlcakes]

Frum was a conservative probably before you were born, You MAGAs are upstarts and pretty much assholes across the board.

Frum’s a liberal like yourself. I wish you guys well in the Democratic Party. It’s good place for both of you. Also, calling me a MAGA isn’t an insult. I’ll be f#cking trilled if Trump wins.

 

[mcmurtry66]

It’s simple. Trump is not fit for the office. I’m not gambling that Vance, Congress and others will keep his mental instability and irrational behavior under control.

These are people who locked down our businesses with virtue signaling.
These are people who tried to mandate a vaccine.
These are people who forced our kids to miss school
These are people who forced our kids to wear masks at school
These are people who support radical gender reassignment surgeries on children
These are people who defunded police, created bail projects, and made our communities less safe
These are people who flooded the country with immigrants and doubled the nonconfined docket allowing criminals to run loose
These are people who gave away so much free cheese with their welfare agenda they sent prices soaring
These are people who push unvetted incredibly expensive climate bs bc it sounds good
These are people who want reparations.
These are people who play Robinhood politics and support equity of opportunities

His team is the innovator of our time, a brilliant vp, and a freaking Kennedy former Dem

Your decision to support the above is based strictly on emotion. Personal animus and nothing more.