On Traditional Media and Why it Sucks

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Allies is a social justice warrior word that is basically “if you don’t agree with everything we see - you’re against us.”

I think that's way over generalized. I'm no SJW (whatever that ACTUALLY means), but I'm an ally for people of color, for LBGTQ, for Muslims, for all sorts of minority groups. If ally, as I interpret it, means that you can be open about who you are with me, what your beliefs are. You don't have to hide anything for fear of being ostracized or made feel less. It also means standing up to others if they try to marginalize those people while in my presence.

And my circle of friends that also consider themselves allies, based on conversations we've had, experiences we've shared and actions I've witnessed, all fit that same definition of being an ally to those groups of people (and others).

I don't dispute that there are people with the 'with us or against us' thought process, but to weaponize the term ally to describe those people? That's a pretty giant leap in my mind.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

See even in the LGBTQ world Gen Z is better than Millenials and Zoomers.

Always and forever

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

my opinion isn’t fully formed on this issue but could a catholic or otherwise conservative Christian school be viewed as creating allies for the heterosexual, abstinence-til-marriage crowd and all the political leanings that entails? Granted, the parents are making the choice to send them but it’s still indoctrination

as a pragmatist, I’d rather send my kids to a school full of LGBTQ teachers than most other cults

The crucial difference, for me, is what you note: that's a choice those parents make. If someone wants to start up a private school that indoctrinates children into a certain political idealogy--within reason--I'm fine with that. I draw the line at public schools since they are (1) run by the govt, (2) mandatory, and (3) financed with taxes.

 

[larsIU]

Always and forever

Shit, I meant Gen X. Shitty laptop keyboard.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Shit, I meant Gen X. Shitty laptop keyboard.

I knew what you meant.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

The crucial difference, for me, is what you note: that's a choice those parents make. If someone wants to start up a private school that indoctrinates children into a certain political idealogy--within reason--I'm fine with that. I draw the line at public schools since they are (1) run by the govt, (2) mandatory, and (3) financed with taxes.

Public schools have always indoctrinated students. It's baked in.

 

[bub-rub]

The crucial difference, for me, is what you note: that's a choice those parents make. If someone wants to start up a private school that indoctrinates children into a certain political idealogy--within reason--I'm fine with that. I draw the line at public schools since they are (1) run by the govt, (2) mandatory, and (3) financed with taxes.

that's also kinda good logic for leaving this up to individual school districts. maybe congress and states should have a very limited role.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

if we're discussing 4 yr olds having LGBQ teachers non stop, instead of medicare for all, money in politics and literally owning our govt, our generals working for the military industrial complex, a living minimum wage, college being unaffordable for most by the time said 4 yr old is 18, the runaway cost of housing fueled by investors and hedge funds, and lack of mental health facilities leaving the mentally ill living on the street, then OUR TRADITIONAL MEDIA, is doing exactly what their corporate owners want them to be doing.

and succeeding beyond hope at it.

the last thing parents of a 4 yr old today need to worry about regarding the future of their 4 yr old, is whether their kid's teacher is straight or not.

TRADITIONAL CORPORATE MEDIA, you get an A+++++++++++ in serving your CORPORATE ownership.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

Yes, one of the more insidious issues in this: gays (mostly gay men) have been fighting the stereotype that they are all child molesters and pedophiles for a very, very long time.

From what I have read, though, LGBTQ+ advocacy has moved beyond what many gay men care about or identify with. Ironic that they might shoulder the brunt of this, then.

My favorite colleague at work - one of the sharpest guys with whom I’ve ever worked - is an older gay gentleman and he has made several comments about how ridiculous it’s gotten. Totally unprovoked - we weren’t even talking about it.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think you're being naive. Libs of Tik Tok used the term when posting a video about pedophilia made by someone with a trans identity, in the political context of a movement that goes out of its way to describe the opposing side as a secret cabal of child sex traffickers. The term "grooming" can be used in multiple ways, but there's only one way it's being used here.

Perhaps. That’s not how I’ve taken that term to be used. But I could be naive. I’m one of the few on here that can admit when I’m wrong.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

my opinion isn’t fully formed on this issue but could a catholic or otherwise conservative Christian school be viewed as creating allies for the heterosexual, abstinence-til-marriage crowd and all the political leanings that entails? Granted, the parents are making the choice to send them but it’s still indoctrination

Yes I think that’s right - but that would never be allowed in public school.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I think that's way over generalized. I'm no SJW (whatever that ACTUALLY means), but I'm an ally for people of color, for LBGTQ, for Muslims, for all sorts of minority groups. If ally, as I interpret it, means that you can be open about who you are with me, what your beliefs are. You don't have to hide anything for fear of being ostracized or made feel less. It also means standing up to others if they try to marginalize those people while in my presence.

And my circle of friends that also consider themselves allies, based on conversations we've had, experiences we've shared and actions I've witnessed, all fit that same definition of being an ally to those groups of people (and others).

I don't dispute that there are people with the 'with us or against us' thought process, but to weaponize the term ally to describe those people? That's a pretty giant leap in my mind.

That’s an optimistic definition of Ally, perhaps like my definition of Libs’ use of groomer is.

In all cases I’ve seen in person and print (digital), you’re only an Ally if you see it exactly their way - be it racial, gender ideology, etc.

Was Ally meant the way you mean it, I don’t think there are too many enemies - maybe less than 5% of the population. I mean honestly, who do you know that truly is racist and despised LGBT people? I know literally nobody.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

if we're discussing 4 yr olds having LGBQ teachers non stop, instead of medicare for all, money in politics and literally owning our govt, our generals working for the military industrial complex, a living minimum wage, college being unaffordable for most by the time said 4 yr old is 18, the runaway cost of housing fueled by investors and hedge funds, and lack of mental health facilities leaving the mentally ill living on the street, then OUR TRADITIONAL MEDIA, is doing exactly what their corporate owners want them to be doing.

and succeeding beyond hope at it.

the last thing parents of a 4 yr old today need to worry about regarding the future of their 4 yr old, is whether their kid's teacher is straight or not.

TRADITIONAL CORPORATE MEDIA, you get an A+++++++++++ in serving your CORPORATE ownership.

Is that like the A++++++ that Ralphie got on his theme?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

That’s an optimistic definition of Ally, perhaps like my definition of Libs’ use of groomer is.

In all cases I’ve seen in person and print (digital), you’re only an Ally if you see it exactly their way - be it racial, gender ideology, etc.

Was Ally meant the way you mean it, I don’t think there are too many enemies - maybe less than 5% of the population. I mean honestly, who do you know that truly is racist and despised LGBT people? I know literally nobody.

I don't know how the term is used now, but when I was at IU two decades ago, "Ally" was generally 1) only used for LGBT issues, not racial or anything else, and 2) reserved for essentially non-member activists. That is to say, you were not an "Ally" simply for supporting LGBT causes intellectually. You were an "Ally" if you were a straight person who actively put some effort into assisting LGBT groups in whatever it is they were doing at the time for outreach, awareness, lobbying, etc.

That usage may have been specific to the IUB community, though.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

I don't know how the term is used now, but when I was at IU two decades ago, "Ally" was generally 1) only used for LGBT issues, not racial or anything else, and 2) reserved for essentially non-member activists. That is to say, you were not an "Ally" simply for supporting LGBT causes intellectually. You were an "Ally" if you were a straight person who actively put some effort into assisting LGBT groups in whatever it is they were doing at the time for outreach, awareness, lobbying, etc.

That usage may have been specific to the IUB community, though.

It’s very much changed and definitely includes racial groups - specially black. I’ve never heard of a Latino ally.

And in everything I see if you don’t follow that days indoctrinated taking points to the T, you’re not a true ally.

Again, if it was your and Kraft’s definition, virtually everybody is an ally. The evil bogeymen GOP are that type of allies at scale. I’m opposed to the ideology at stake - not the basics.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It’s very much changed and definitely includes racial groups - specially black. I’ve never heard of a Latino ally.

And in everything I see if you don’t follow that days indoctrinated taking points to the T, you’re not a true ally.

Again, if it was your and Kraft’s definition, virtually everybody is an ally. The evil bogeymen GOP are that type of allies at scale. I’m opposed to the ideology at stake - not the basics.

No, my definition was much more restrictive than Kraft's. Not as restrictive as yours, but back then, people were still working a lot of these issues out, and I don't think ideological purity was really something anyone was looking for.

 

[bub-rub]

That’s an optimistic definition of Ally, perhaps like my definition of Libs’ use of groomer is.

In all cases I’ve seen in person and print (digital), you’re only an Ally if you see it exactly their way - be it racial, gender ideology, etc.

Was Ally meant the way you mean it, I don’t think there are too many enemies - maybe less than 5% of the population. I mean honestly, who do you know that truly is racist and despised LGBT people? I know literally nobody.

I think I’ve heard “black ally” as a term more than any other

here is what the Harvard Business Review writes about that role in the workplace:

Be a Better Ally

The Black Lives Matter and #MeToo movements have forced people in positions of power—namely, the white men who dominate institutional leadership roles—to realize they must personally step up to make organizations more fair and inclusive. That means playing a truly active role in helping...

hbr.org

I have mixed feelz but mostly realize I’m old lol

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I think I’ve heard “black ally” as a term more than any other

here is what the Harvard Business Review writes about that role in the workplace:

Be a Better Ally

The Black Lives Matter and #MeToo movements have forced people in positions of power—namely, the white men who dominate institutional leadership roles—to realize they must personally step up to make organizations more fair and inclusive. That means playing a truly active role in helping...

hbr.org

I have mixed feelz but mostly realize I’m old lol

Ugh. That article gives me a headache. I recognize that the authors are probably spot on with just about everything they say. I know white male privilege is a real thing. It makes sense that white males in leadership roles could play a big role in overcoming unintentionally biased processes. At the same time, a 4,000-word essay reminding me once again how lucky I should feel to be a white man, while I'm sitting here with a sore back, sore foot, and sore checking account balance...

I'm starting to understand why so many people are warning that the progressives (which I've long counted myself among) are going to cost the Democrats votes.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

the last thing parents of a 4 yr old today need to worry about regarding the future of their 4 yr old, is whether their kid's teacher is straight or not.

That’s not the issue.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

My favorite colleague at work - one of the sharpest guys with whom I’ve ever worked - is an older gay gentleman and he has made several comments about how ridiculous it’s gotten. Totally unprovoked - we weren’t even talking about it.

 

[DANC]

I think your argument holds a lot of water. To me, it's similar to Popper's famous paradox of tolerance. In the paradox, it is suggested that the one thing society should not be tolerant of is intolerance itself, because intolerance is the singular threat to a tolerant society, should it gain power. That's unfair in all sorts of free speech and due process contexts to people who happen to be intolerant, but haven't actually done anything wrong.

Similarly, it's unfair to stigmatize people for an attraction they have (and almost certainly desperately do not want), if they haven't acted on it in any criminal way. And yet, the safety of children in our society might require us to be unfair in just this way.

Again, my concern is that this is a legitimate discussion that professionals should have, without fear of being tarred and feathered by an angry mob that mischaracterizes their work.

Surprisingly, I tend to agree with you on this, regarding having a legitimate discussion about it. Not a new term itself, but discussing it without fear of retribution.

But regarding stigmatizing people for an attraction they have but don't act on it....

What if they had a chat room where they discussed their attraction? Wouldn't that create - or have the possibility of creating - the unintended consequence of those people thinking it's more 'normal' and, therefore, more prone to act on it?

So far, you can't be arrested for your thoughts alone. Like other verboten topics, many people may have those thoughts. But I think it ought to be reinforced that those thoughts, while maybe involuntary, are wrong. Renaming a condition seems to make it less wrong, somehow.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

I think I’ve heard “black ally” as a term more than any other

here is what the Harvard Business Review writes about that role in the workplace:

Be a Better Ally

The Black Lives Matter and #MeToo movements have forced people in positions of power—namely, the white men who dominate institutional leadership roles—to realize they must personally step up to make organizations more fair and inclusive. That means playing a truly active role in helping...

hbr.org

I have mixed feelz but mostly realize I’m old lol

That article is a crock. Members of the ivory tower lecturing other members of the ivory tower about privileges within the ivory tower is not the solution. . The problem is found in the streets and neighborhoods of any-big-city USA where black young men have no fathers, but have gangs, drugs, guns and juvenile probation officers. They are functionally illiterate and can’t do basic math. If they survive teen-age years,, they probably will be in jail or dead.

All those who do handwringing about failures and privileges in the ivory tower organizations in education, government, and corporations have no clue about what’s going on in the lives of these youngsters. They only care about showing cohorts they care. We must start with those kids. The people who make it into the ivory tower institutions have it made whether they know it or not.

From the for-what-it’s-worth department. Our law firm was the first white-guy firm in our community to have a female named partner. We did that without any consideration of virtue signaling discussions., We didn’t even know that it happened. When I jokenky mentioned to my partner that she was the first female named partner, I got a shoulder shrug. No body cared about that stuff most of the time. Now skin color and sex are always a factor.

 

[Lucy01]

That right there is why the media suck. What he said.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Surprisingly, I tend to agree with you on this, regarding having a legitimate discussion about it. Not a new term itself, but discussing it without fear of retribution.

But regarding stigmatizing people for an attraction they have but don't act on it....

What if they had a chat room where they discussed their attraction? Wouldn't that create - or have the possibility of creating - the unintended consequence of those people thinking it's more 'normal' and, therefore, more prone to act on it?

So far, you can't be arrested for your thoughts alone. Like other verboten topics, many people may have those thoughts. But I think it ought to be reinforced that those thoughts, while maybe involuntary, are wrong. Renaming a condition seems to make it less wrong, somehow.

That's the rub. Walker was concerned with people who might not seek treatment/counseling because of the stigma. And that's probably a valid concern. But the idea that the stigma itself serves a purpose is also a valid concern.

 

[Spartans9312]

That article is a crock. Members of the ivory tower lecturing other members of the ivory tower about privileges within the ivory tower is not the solution. . The problem is found in the streets and neighborhoods of any-big-city USA where black young men have no fathers, but have gangs, drugs, guns and juvenile probation officers. They are functionally illiterate and can’t do basic math. If they survive teen-age years,, they probably will be in jail or dead.

All those who do handwringing about failures and privileges in the ivory tower organizations in education, government, and corporations have no clue about what’s going on in the lives of these youngsters. They only care about showing cohorts they care. We must start with those kids. The people who make it into the ivory tower institutions have it made whether they know it or not.

From the for-what-it’s-worth department. Our law firm was the first white-guy firm in our community to have a female named partner. We did that without any consideration of virtue signaling discussions., We didn’t even know that it happened. When I jokenky mentioned to my partner that she was the first female named partner, I got a shoulder shrug. No body cared about that stuff most of the time. Now skin color and sex are always a factor.

Births to unwed mothers…I believe it’s north of 70% in the black community. Compared to less than 15% in the Asian community.
One of the bedrocks of keeping someone out of poverty

 

[Lucy01]

That's the rub. Walker was concerned with people who might not seek treatment/counseling because of the stigma. And that's probably a valid concern. But the idea that the stigma itself serves a purpose is also a valid concern.

I love it when you get serious! Gives me cold chills.

 

[Bulk VanderHuge]

I love it when you get serious! Gives me cold chills.

NTTAWWT

 

[jet812]

Did they do that when they found out their teacher was straight?

We should hope so for the survival of the species.

 

[DANC]

I say we take him behind the barn and groom him.

Great. Now I have a mental image of you and Goat 'grooming' someone behind the barn.

Damn you!

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Great. Now I have a mental image of you and Goat 'grooming' someone behind the barn.

Damn you!

Sounds like Lucy would be into it.

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

That’s an optimistic definition of Ally, perhaps like my definition of Libs’ use of groomer is.

In all cases I’ve seen in person and print (digital), you’re only an Ally if you see it exactly their way - be it racial, gender ideology, etc.

Was Ally meant the way you mean it, I don’t think there are too many enemies - maybe less than 5% of the population. I mean honestly, who do you know that truly is racist and despised LGBT people? I know literally nobody.

But there are a lot of people that won't speak up. They sit idly by. They might be ok with you being gay or in a biracial relationship, but they aren't going to speak up for you or defend you in public.

 

[snarlcakes]

The crucial difference, for me, is what you note: that's a choice those parents make. If someone wants to start up a private school that indoctrinates children into a certain political idealogy--within reason--I'm fine with that. I draw the line at public schools since they are (1) run by the govt, (2) mandatory, and (3) financed with taxes.

At this point I’m for school choice and allowing the students/parents take their money to the school they see fit. A lot of these cultural battles would quickly go away. If parents want their kids to go to a more progressive school that teaches queer studies? Have at it. A school that teaches Islam? Have at it. A school that teaches Christianity? Have at it. A school that teaches Purdue sucks? Have at it.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

That’s not the issue.

it's precisely the issue.

nice try though.

 

[anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa]

But there are a lot of people that won't speak up. They sit idly by. They might be ok with you being gay or in a biracial relationship, but they aren't going to speak up for you or defend you in public.

Speaking up in public is not what the people who use the term “Ally” want. They want you to be “anti-racist” which sounds natural and good at face value but in reality it’s espousing bastardized Marxist demands. It’s placing all blame for everything at the feet of the privileged. Its apologizing for being white. It’s utter nonsense. And it’s gone too far.

 

[Lucy01]

Sounds like Lucy would be into it.

💋

 

[DANC]

This thread wore me out. I feel like I've been groomed. For what, I'm not really sure.

 

[Univee2]

This thread wore me out. I feel like I've been groomed. For what, I'm not really sure.

. . For becoming part of the Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O’Donnell cult. (And I don’t care if I misspelled their names.)

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

It's more than that. It's that it operated essentially as its own municipality.

Nothing will change. This is just political red meat. There's a reason they set this to go into effect next year. No one wants the counties to take over those responsibilities. After the election, the legislature will reverse course.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Nothing will change. This is just political red meat. There's a reason they set this to go into effect next year. No one wants the counties to take over those responsibilities. After the election, the legislature will reverse course.

Nothing will change. This is just political red meat. There's a reason they set this to go into effect next year. No one wants the counties to take over those responsibilities. After the election, the legislature will reverse course.

Bonds all kinds of shit. Could bite taxpayers in the ass

 

[kraft cheese+macaroni]

Speaking up in public is not what the people who use the term “Ally” want. They want you to be “anti-racist” which sounds natural and good at face value but in reality it’s espousing bastardized Marxist demands. It’s placing all blame for everything at the feet of the privileged. Its apologizing for being white. It’s utter nonsense. And it’s gone too far.

Just my opinion, but I think your view of what an ally is warped versus what regular everyday people like me whose lives don't revolve around following politics closely or politics on social media or whatever. I don't mean that disrespectfully. It just comes across as maybe you've lost sight of the fact that not everyone, in fact a pretty small percentage of people on both sides, are wrapped up in all of this BS on a day to day basis.