That was indeed a poorly constructed roster and deceives a lot of people who comment.
Unfortunately, four years later it is still a poorly constructed roster.
Ohio State
- Thread starter fkfootball
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That was indeed a poorly constructed roster and deceives a lot of people who comment.
Unfortunately, four years later it is still a poorly constructed roster.
But you claimed TMs recruiting was severely impaired due to his medical condition. Again, you’re trying to make your agenda fit a pre-determined outcome.
You speak for a growing group of IU fans who have lowered their expectations for the program. They’ll protest and say otherwise, but most people know better. In fairness, most have never seen IU as an elite program, so they know nothing else.
TM's recruiting tailed off his last year or two. KBD, Jae'Sean Tate, Kam Williams, and CJ Jackson were all upperclassmen that Holtmann inherited that were recruited by Matta before his persistent off-court issues. This isn't hard to comprehend at all.
were WE part of that gift? Because we sure played like it against Purdue. As we have most every time vs PU over the past many seasons.
Thad Matta's firing makes it clear recruiting top priority for next hire at Ohio State | Sporting News
The recruiting, however, lagged toward the end. Matta fought through the nagging back pain against a landscape that has "changed drastically." Matta was up against that while trying, in his words, to "be serviceable" from a physical standpoint. Other schools took advantage through "negative recruiting."
Ohio State basketball: Thad Matta might get back into coaching (scarletandgame.com)
Matta was eventually let go back in 2017 after injuries had sapped his ability to recruit. Other big-time programs were negatively recruiting towards him, and it hampered his ability to keep Ohio State relevant. So he had to go and Chris Holtmann was brought in
Thad Matta's downfall began with a top-five recruiting class that didn't deliver (yahoo.com)
It’s fair to argue that Matta would still be Ohio State’s coach had his declining health not impacted his job performance.
Why Thad Matta’s removal at Ohio State is surprising but also totally understandable - CBSSports.com
That's when a botched back surgery robbed him of his health.
This is a man who used to be active. He was a runner. But now he's a 49 year old with limited use of his right foot and pain that has at times been debilitating. And it's not a stretch to write that the downturn in his program was at least partly tied to his health, if only because rival coaches used it against him on the recruiting trail.
"Yeah, probably," Matta answered Monday when asked if he'd still be coaching if not for that botched back surgery. And I think he's right. And there's nothing satisfying about watching a decent man have his career cut short because of things out of his control.
That's the part that makes me sad.
The recruiting, however, lagged toward the end. Matta fought through the nagging back pain against a landscape that has "changed drastically." Matta was up against that while trying, in his words, to "be serviceable" from a physical standpoint. Other schools took advantage through "negative recruiting."
Ohio State basketball: Thad Matta might get back into coaching (scarletandgame.com)
Matta was eventually let go back in 2017 after injuries had sapped his ability to recruit. Other big-time programs were negatively recruiting towards him, and it hampered his ability to keep Ohio State relevant. So he had to go and Chris Holtmann was brought in
Thad Matta's downfall began with a top-five recruiting class that didn't deliver (yahoo.com)
It’s fair to argue that Matta would still be Ohio State’s coach had his declining health not impacted his job performance.
Why Thad Matta’s removal at Ohio State is surprising but also totally understandable - CBSSports.com
That's when a botched back surgery robbed him of his health.
This is a man who used to be active. He was a runner. But now he's a 49 year old with limited use of his right foot and pain that has at times been debilitating. And it's not a stretch to write that the downturn in his program was at least partly tied to his health, if only because rival coaches used it against him on the recruiting trail.
"Yeah, probably," Matta answered Monday when asked if he'd still be coaching if not for that botched back surgery. And I think he's right. And there's nothing satisfying about watching a decent man have his career cut short because of things out of his control.
That's the part that makes me sad.
My efforts here are fine and based on merit. Matta's 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes were ranked 5th and 6th nationally. Kam Williams, KBD, and Jae'Sean Tate were all apart of those classes and were seniors in Holtmann's first year. Matta's 2016 class (second to last) finished 42nd nationally and the only top 100 kid in that class (DJ Funderburke) never enrolled. His 2017 class was a two man class that featured Kaleb Wesson and Holtmann was able to bring over Kyle Young, another top 100 recruit, from Butler. Matta signed a single top 100 player in his last two years after having top 10 classes nationally the two years prior. To say his recruiting tailed off is an understatement and is factually based. There' no narrative being pushed. I'm simply stating facts.
Then why the comment about CH getting too much credit? After all, he came into a program with declining recruiting results and a coach who was performing poorly, yet he elevated both. Im just pointing out your obvious inconsistencies.
Your inconsistencies make your agenda pretty obvious. It’s what the lowered expectations crowd does.
I don't have any inconsistencies. You 100% can lay claim that Thad Matta's coaching and recruiting tailed off due to persistent health problems despite having a talented roster while also acknowledging that Chris Holtmann didn't inherit an empty cupboard. Both can, and are, true in this case. There's a reason why Chris Holtmann brought over some of his recruits from Butler and there's a huge reason why Chris Holtmann has hit the transfer market so hard the last few seasons. Matta's 2016 and 2017 classes (who would be upperclassmen on this years team) weren't good and Holtmann had to turnover his roster. But the majority of Holtmann's players in year 1 were kids from Matta's 2014 and 2015 recruiting classes that were top 10 nationally that moved on after Holtmann's first year. Its the very reason why Ohio State came crashing back down to Earth in year 2 and were just ok last year.
Yes we were? We aren’t one of the top 6 teams, so getting us twice is a good thing for them.
You made the claim that CH got too much credit for his first year, and it really lacks merit. But your lowered expectations agenda is intact and obvious. We can agree on that.
So by hitting the transfer market hard the last few years he has elevated his program into big
Ten title contention. Our coach sat on available scholarships while his peers loaded up (minn / Ohio st for examples). I’m sorry. That inexcusable in today’s climate.
The effort to downplay / minimize Holtmann’s accomplishments so that Miller doesn’t appear to have lagged so far off the pace is the obvious mission. Shrinking someone else doesn’t make another person taller.
Most thought Wisconsin was the favorite, returning all 5 starters from a team that won the BIG last year.
Holtmann had a fantastic first year that still overshadows the fact that Ohio State and Holtmann came crashing back to earth in year 2 and was very average in year 3. Everybody shits on Archie for his B10 record the last two years, yet most don't understand or realize and/or conveniently forget that Holtmann's record isn't much better. He has a losing B10 record the last 2 years. Not denying for a second that he has been thoroughly more impressive than Archie to date, but don't think Holtmann has IU in an entirely better situation than IU is in now if he was the one hired.
All of Holtmann's shine is still glowing from his year 1 performance with Matta's players. Had he come to IU with the roster Archie inherited year 1, I'm guessing most of us are still wandering if he's the right guy for the job. He's having a good year again thus far, and if he can navigate his brutal end of year schedule more praise will be warranted. But I wouldn't be shocked to see OSU finish 12-8, 11-9 and mid-pack in the B10 once again given their stretch.
Thanks for acknowledging your agenda. It was what I pointed out originally and what was so obvious.
Maybe at the end of the year that will hold true, BUT at this point to get to where our records stand today, Purdue has played 5 games against those teams with a 2-3 record and IU has played only 3 with a 1-2 record. And instead of losing Michigan to a Covid cancellation Purdue lost the chance to play Nebraska (and it is looking less and less likely that all these games will be made up). There are a lot of things to argue about, but the difference in record this year, at this point, is NOT about scheduling.
Building Holtmann up doesn't make Archie shorter either, but that doesn't stop fkfootball from prattling on about it.
BIG will make up games that will affect who gets in the tournament. Remember...situational ethics is the MO these days.
I could care less about Purdue’s scheduling. They beat us. And we lost to Northwestern and Rutgers at home. IU sucks. I wish our fans could accept this and stop giving the University any money.
I apologize for being right. I also apologize for being an a-hole. Because I would have dumped this turd of a coach, last season.
Totally agree. The issue (on both sides) is about defending one by downplaying the accomplishments of the other. FK and Coach are playing the same tired and illogical game of sleight of hand.
True, but I'm not sure the teams they worry about supporting will want to play those games lol.
Outside their first year where the situations were entirely different, how can you say Holtmann is head over heels better than Archie through their first 3 years? He's better, but not by much. Holtmann to date through year 4 has put some separation between Archie and him, but there's still half a conference season left, but per your words through 3 seasons not sure how you come to the conclusion that firing Archie is a no-brainer and that Holtmann is somehow IU's savior.
Year 2
Holtmann: 20-15, 8-12 B10, 11 seed
Archie: 19-16, 8-12 B10
Year 3
Holtmann: 21-10, 11-9 B10, tournament cancelled but probably in
Archie: 20-12, 9-11 B10, tournament cancelled but likely in
They're almost identical the last 2 years.
That's not all that separates them. AM made the incredibly stupid decision to keep all Crean's recruits. All of which were misses or have since transferred out. Then he compounded that mistake by having his own misses and transfers. That's how we got to where we are.
I don't believe the decision to retain Crean's recruits was a decision that was left in Archie's hands. So I don't fault him in that regard.
We are currently one game behind you the loss column. Both of your wins came against Ohio State. The first time they were without their best player. The second time they were without their starting AND backup PG.
Most coaches keep the recruits from the previous class, especially when they are hired in the spring. It's not a good look to be coming in to a program and cut loose recruits the school and program offered, a month before they are to show up on campus. You have the benefit of hindsight 3 years down the road, but virtually every incoming coach would have done that. Would you be singing the same tune if Archie had cut them loose and then didn't get Romeo or TJD because his image had suffered? Taking the former coaches recruits, especially that late in the year, is SOP in almost every case I've ever seen.
In whose hands was it? And if Miller didn’t have the authority, who did? The season was going to be a very difficlt one anyway. Miller should’ve cut bait.
It's customary for a lot of recruits to re-open their commitments once a coach departs (I believe all 3 did in this case) and not uncommon for them to choose a different school in the end. What really handcuffed Archie was the fact that IU was oversigned by 3 when he initially took the job. It took early entrants from OG, Blackmon, and Bryant just to get those kids on campus. Just goes to show you how big a mess Crean left the program.
Correct, I'm just saying the standard approach for coaches is to try and retain those kids, especially that late in the process. It's easy enough now, with 3 years of experience with those players to say it was a mistake to keep them, but almost every coach tries to, and the view is 1)it's worse to be seen as the grim reaper who comes in and doesn't try and keep those kids (which, I think you have to if they've signed), and 2) it doesn't reflect that bad on you if they don't pan out because they weren't your recruits.. ie they can be blamed on the last guy.
Did I say that? I was responding to a poster that tried to say Purdue was just as big of a surprise as Michigan has been this year. It’s not close.
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