No I am not going to flip flop but

[bailey777]

Yeah, very high bball IQ....Ron Patterson....Devin Davis....Jeremy Hollowell......Hanner Perea......this list could go on forever.

I knew you would go their. I am talking Hulls, Zeller, Yogi, Elston, Hartman. Those guys you mention that is on crean. I could of told you after watching Hanner, Hollowell, and Patterson in AAU they did not have high bball iq. And for the record I do not think Bryant or OG have high bball iq.

 

[snarlcakes]

Yep he is not going anywhere that is why the new coach thread is pointless and a waste of time. We will be having these same frustrating conversations about crean three years from now. He is kind of like a government employee in a union doing who is doing a terrible job. Since they are in a union they are impossible to get rid of. Glass is the union boss and crean is the union member who is tenured.

Crean has 1-2 years left, depending on how bad this season plays out. The talent coming in is worse than what we have now. If you think this year is bad wait until next year when we lose possibly TB,OG, and JBJ.

One thing that is for sure, when Crean doesn't have talent he loses a crap ton of games. By the end of the year Crean will have had 6 of his 9 seasons with 10+ losses. Fred Glass will fire him, because if he doesn't, he will get fired eventually with him.

 

[YOTHN]

I knew you would go their. I am talking Hulls, Zeller, Yogi, Elston, Hartman. Those guys you mention that is on crean. I could of told you after watching Hanner, Hollowell, and Patterson in AAU they did not have high bball iq. And for the record I do not think Bryant or OG have high bball iq.

ha Did you just list Indiana players who Crean recruited to IU? Thanks...I guess? My point is, just because they are geographically located in Indiana doesn't mean they have a great bball IQ.

And as an FYI, a team of Hulls, Yogi, Elston, Zeller and Hartman alone wouldn't be doing much more than this team is.

 

[YOTHN]

Crean has 1-2 years left, depending on how bad this season plays out. The talent coming in is worse than what we have now. If you think this year is bad wait until next year when we lose possibly TB,OG, and JBJ.

One thing that is for sure, when Crean doesn't have talent he loses a crap ton of games. By the end of the year Crean will have had 6 of his 9 seasons with 10+ losses. Fred Glass will fire him, because if he doesn't, he will get fired eventually with him.

Great scenario but if Indiana plays poorly, it's very possible if not likely that TB, OG and maybe JBJ all return. Then what situation do we have on our hands?

 

[biggio7]

ha Did you just list Indiana players who Crean recruited to IU? Thanks...I guess? My point is, just because they are geographically located in Indiana doesn't mean they have a great bball IQ.

And as an FYI, a team of Hulls, Yogi, Elston, Zeller and Hartman alone wouldn't be doing much more than this team is.

No but teams with Benson, Wilkerson,Abernathy, Green or Wittman,Turner,Kitchel,Tolbert or CC, Bailey,Henderson,Nover,Graham did pretty well. I believe a team built around Wilkes, Scruggs would be fine. The best years IU has had have been when the foundation has been Indiana grown talent. You take Yogi, Hulls,Zellar,Elston add 2-3 talented players from the midwest it would do better than a sweet 16 run it of course it would help if you had a different coach.

 

[hoohoome]

Great scenario but if Indiana plays poorly, it's very possible if not likely that TB, OG and maybe JBJ all return. Then what situation do we have on our hands?

My buddy and I were talking about this last night. It would be Crean's deepest and most veteran team and would probably win a lot of games leading to a Crean extension. This is a nightmare scenario for those of us that have seen enough of Crean to want to move on.

 

[IUBBALLAWOL]

last night was brutal to watch. I am still going to try to back Crean and keep my half glass full outlook but after last night performance it will be hard. With all the turnovers and the total lack of defense it is getting harder and harder to watch Crean coach. Last night when we were down two with a couple of minutes left he was trying to get the crowd into it instead of trying to coach the team.

I am hoping for a turn around next game and have a successful season but if not maybe people will get their wish and Glass will end this for you.

Scott i predicted on this board a few weeks back IU would lose at least two games this season to bottom feeders in conference play. I got blasted by a few and the post eventually removed. Some of you will eventually see thru the clapping and top 10 wins that come every year. TC simply can not make in game changes and does not hold kids accountable for shitty effort and play. It is 100% on him. This team won't finish above third in conference because of it. I also predicted a sweet sixteen loss and got blasted. Teams take on the personality of the coach and these kids think clapping and running up and down the floor like their crotch is on fire is just fine.

 

[snarlcakes]

Great scenario but if Indiana plays poorly, it's very possible if not likely that TB, OG and maybe JBJ all return. Then what situation do we have on our hands?

Of course all 3 coming back is highly unlikely and you know that.

However, The first thing that would happen is the Creaning of a quarter of our team. I'm sure that would do wonders for future recruiting.

Next, we would most likely have a top 10ish team, lose some games we shouldn't, win the Big Ten, and top it off with a sw 16 team run. The following year or two we would have teams that struggle to make the tourney. Rinse and repeat.

 

[IU Scott]

My buddy and I were talking about this last night. It would be Crean's deepest and most veteran team and would probably win a lot of games leading to a Crean extension. This is a nightmare scenario for those of us that have seen enough of Crean to want to move on.

Actually if everyone comes back it would be his worse nightmare because we are over signed by 3 right now.

 

[YOTHN]

Of course all 3 coming back is highly unlikely and you know that.

However, The first thing that would happen is the Creaning of a quarter of our team. I'm sure that would do wonders for future recruiting.

Next, we would most likely have a top 10ish team, lose some games we shouldn't, win the Big Ten, and top it off with a sw 16 team run. The following year or two we would have teams that struggle to make the tourney. Rinse and repeat.

If IU plays poorly, no I would not consider that to be a highly unlikely scenario by any means. Now, do I think IU continues to play poorly? No but if they did as everyone here suggests, I bet at least 2 of the 3 stay.

Another B1G title? Sweet.

 

[bsmitty08]

I wouldn't call Butler average unless all average teams are ranked around 15th in the country.
All the fans will be happy if they manage to beat Louisville.
Crean is not going anywhere. Again he just won the BIG and beat Kansas and UNC. He does enough to stay.

Butler is an average team. Yes ranking says 15 but IU was in top 5 and will now fall out of top 25 most likely.

 

[bailey777]

Actually if everyone comes back it would be his worse nightmare because we are over signed by 3 right now.

It seems the over sign might finally catch up to crean but as of right now OG nor Bryant is a first round pick. Bryant has a long long way to go. I suppose crean would just crean some players out but it would be his own fault

 

[bailey777]

Butler is an average team. Yes ranking says 15 but IU was in top 5 and will now fall out of top 25 most likely.

IU was ranked # 3 in the country.

 

[bsmitty08]

IU was ranked # 3 in the country.

Yep that is why I said top 5

 

[UncleMark]

Of course all 3 coming back is highly unlikely and you know that.

However, The first thing that would happen is the Creaning of a quarter of our team. I'm sure that would do wonders for future recruiting.

I'm thinking that scenario would put Crean's job in greater jeopardy than poor play. That can't be allowed to happen. Glass would have to step in. If that didn't result in "philosophical differences" between the AD and the coach, then nothing would.

 

[YOTHN]

Yep that is why I said top 5

Right, but you didn't say top 3!

 

[YOTHN]

I'm thinking that scenario would put Crean's job in greater jeopardy than poor play. That can't be allowed to happen. Glass would have to step in. If that didn't result in "philosophical differences" between the AD and the coach, then nothing would.

On the outside looking in, it may look that way. It may very well be that simplistic and if so, I would be in full agreement with you. I would, however, state that there could be a lot more going into it. Coach may be telling players that they honestly won't get PT next season due to the teams depth. There is nothing wrong with being up front and players deciding they would rather leave. I don't know if that's the case but we don't see too many players complaining. The only one I know that made some mention of it was Matt Roth and he had graduated and used 4 years. We didn't owe him any additional years and he was not punished. The same thing happened to Max B and Spike Albrecht at Michigan. If the "Creaning" process is built off honesty and Crean being upfront about playing time, to me that is not wrong. That is merely talking to a kid about his situation and allowing him to make his own choice.

So I do get what you're saying. If it's literally Crean saying we won't have you on our team. Period. Then yes, there's an issue. But as a player, I would be upset that I am being told I likely wouldn't get much if any playing time next season but I would appreciate the heads up. The alternative is me staying and putting in a lot of work only to truly never have a shot at making my goals come to fruition.

So it's all in how it's perceived. I would love to be a fly on the wall though....

 

[Shirtsandskins]

On the outside looking in, it may look that way. It may very well be that simplistic and if so, I would be in full agreement with you. I would, however, state that there could be a lot more going into it. Coach may be telling players that they honestly won't get PT next season due to the teams depth. There is nothing wrong with being up front and players deciding they would rather leave. I don't know if that's the case but we don't see too many players complaining. The only one I know that made some mention of it was Matt Roth and he had graduated and used 4 years. We didn't owe him any additional years and he was not punished. The same thing happened to Max B and Spike Albrecht at Michigan. If the "Creaning" process is built off honesty and Crean being upfront about playing time, to me that is not wrong. That is merely talking to a kid about his situation and allowing him to make his own choice.

It's not being honest if you gave the spot away months before you had that talk. How does TC know who isn't going to play in 17-18 months before the 16-17 season starts? If everyone returns we've been over signed for several months. I know you like to see things positively but some things you can't spin. TC has overrecruiting, RMK had his temper...acknowledging those issues isn't a bad thing, it's facing reality

I would feel differently if he was having those talks and then filling the spots but he is forcing the spots open out of necessity

 

[bailey777]

Crean has 1-2 years left, depending on how bad this season plays out. The talent coming in is worse than what we have now. If you think this year is bad wait until next year when we lose possibly TB,OG, and JBJ.

One thing that is for sure, when Crean doesn't have talent he loses a crap ton of games. By the end of the year Crean will have had 6 of his 9 seasons with 10+ losses. Fred Glass will fire him, because if he doesn't, he will get fired eventually with him.

I disagree I think has as long left as he wants. Just ask Fred.

 

[IUfanBorden]

Let's let this season continue to ride out and then decide.

Why? After 6 seasons( pass on first three), what makes you think it will be different this time? I mean, we've all seen this movie. Ends the same way every time.

 

[UncleMark]

Coach may be telling players that they honestly won't get PT next season due to the teams depth. There is nothing wrong with being up front and players deciding they would rather leave.
[...]
The alternative is me staying and putting in a lot of work only to truly never have a shot at making my goals come to fruition.

That's how it will be spun, no matter what the reality is.

Bottom line is it's not right. Remember when Glass said that "at IU, contracts matter"? So too should be the commitment made to the student athlete. The Student Athlete Bill of Rights addresses that to a point, but if Crean starts using that as a backstop, I'm thinking Glass is going to have a problem with that. Or maybe I'm full of it. I don't claim to know anything. What I do think is that Glass is a principled man who has the interests of the students at heart and a wholesale Creaning due to oversigning won't go over well.

Roth got his degree; Creek was the one who I thought was treated shabbily myself, but most people didn't get too worked up because they never thought he'd ever be able to contribute again. Today, people are up in arms about a possible Hartman Creaning, since he would be a contributor next year, but I don't hear anyone bitching about Priller or Gelon being shown the door.

 

[Emartin70287]

Agree but two bad losses and one to an average Butler squad.

The "average" Butler squad now is ranked higher. I don't understand why everyone wants to hate on Butler.

 

[RRgo]

That's how it will be spun, no matter what the reality is.

Bottom line is it's not right. Remember when Glass said that "at IU, contracts matter"? So too should be the commitment made to the student athlete. The Student Athlete Bill of Rights addresses that to a point, but if Crean starts using that as a backstop, I'm thinking Glass is going to have a problem with that. Or maybe I'm full of it. I don't claim to know anything. What I do think is that Glass is a principled man who has the interests of the students at heart and a wholesale Creaning due to oversigning won't go over well.

Roth got his degree; Creek was the one who I thought was treated shabbily myself, but most people didn't get too worked up because they never thought he'd ever be able to contribute again. Today, people are up in arms about a possible Hartman Creaning, since he would be a contributor next year, but I don't hear anyone bitching about Priller or Gelon being shown the door.

Reason being right or wrong...
Most consider they should of never been offered.(Priller&Gelon)
Its like a correction a do-over..
No it doesnt make it right.
If we only had that option with Davis again..

 

[trailrunner]

ha Did you just list Indiana players who Crean recruited to IU? Thanks...I guess? My point is, just because they are geographically located in Indiana doesn't mean they have a great bball IQ.

And as an FYI, a team of Hulls, Yogi, Elston, Zeller and Hartman alone wouldn't be doing much more than this team is.

Depends on who's coaching them

 

[5morebanners]

On the outside looking in, it may look that way. It may very well be that simplistic and if so, I would be in full agreement with you. I would, however, state that there could be a lot more going into it. Coach may be telling players that they honestly won't get PT next season due to the teams depth. There is nothing wrong with being up front and players deciding they would rather leave. I don't know if that's the case but we don't see too many players complaining. The only one I know that made some mention of it was Matt Roth and he had graduated and used 4 years. We didn't owe him any additional years and he was not punished. The same thing happened to Max B and Spike Albrecht at Michigan. If the "Creaning" process is built off honesty and Crean being upfront about playing time, to me that is not wrong. That is merely talking to a kid about his situation and allowing him to make his own choice.

So I do get what you're saying. If it's literally Crean saying we won't have you on our team. Period. Then yes, there's an issue. But as a player, I would be upset that I am being told I likely wouldn't get much if any playing time next season but I would appreciate the heads up. The alternative is me staying and putting in a lot of work only to truly never have a shot at making my goals come to fruition.

So it's all in how it's perceived. I would love to be a fly on the wall though....

Over signing is my number one beef about the game. I hate it that Crean does it. In your scenario about being honest about PT and letting them make the choice, it's just sugar coating it. What if all players decide to return as their choice? Who's scholly gets pulled and exactly whose choice would it be ?

 

[hondo314]

On the outside looking in, it may look that way. It may very well be that simplistic and if so, I would be in full agreement with you. I would, however, state that there could be a lot more going into it. Coach may be telling players that they honestly won't get PT next season due to the teams depth. There is nothing wrong with being up front and players deciding they would rather leave. I don't know if that's the case but we don't see too many players complaining. The only one I know that made some mention of it was Matt Roth and he had graduated and used 4 years. We didn't owe him any additional years and he was not punished. The same thing happened to Max B and Spike Albrecht at Michigan. If the "Creaning" process is built off honesty and Crean being upfront about playing time, to me that is not wrong. That is merely talking to a kid about his situation and allowing him to make his own choice.

So I do get what you're saying. If it's literally Crean saying we won't have you on our team. Period. Then yes, there's an issue. But as a player, I would be upset that I am being told I likely wouldn't get much if any playing time next season but I would appreciate the heads up. The alternative is me staying and putting in a lot of work only to truly never have a shot at making my goals come to fruition.

So it's all in how it's perceived. I would love to be a fly on the wall though....

yup, and patterson really appreciated getting on campus for a summer session and then packing his shtuff up and going home. did he say anything bad? no, the kids are taught not to. hurts their prospects. that's why you hardly ever hear kids complain.

ya, it happens every where a little bit but has happened at IU more. much more. and hasn't lead to sustainable success.

but rationalize away if it makes you feel better. sheeeesh.

 

[bsmitty08]

The "average" Butler squad now is ranked higher. I don't understand why everyone wants to hate on Butler.

ITs ranked higher because we have a dipshit coach who loses to teams like IPFW and Nebraska.

 

[YOTHN]

It's not being honest if you gave the spot away months before you had that talk. How does TC know who isn't going to play in 17-18 months before the 16-17 season starts? If everyone returns we've been over signed for several months. I know you like to see things positively but some things you can't spin. TC has overrecruiting, RMK had his temper...acknowledging those issues isn't a bad thing, it's facing reality

I would feel differently if he was having those talks and then filling the spots but he is forcing the spots open out of necessity

He does over recruit but only in the sense that it's over the numbers allotted. He still fields the same number of scholarships year to year. Why would it matter when it took place? If someone isn't going to play then someone isn't going to play. It's the bottom line. I don't fall for that nonsense. The "talk" is likely something happening at the end of every year. Tom has to have a plan in place if many players were to go pro or transfer and he needs a plan in place if they don't. What he is doing now accommodates both. My main thing is making sure players understand what he expects from them. Beyond that, he owes nothing more than honesty at seasons end. Unlike some IU fans who judge at mid-season....

 

[YOTHN]

Why? After 6 seasons( pass on first three), what makes you think it will be different this time? I mean, we've all seen this movie. Ends the same way every time.

The same could be said about a lot of coaches who then went on to win the title. The point is you know nothing is going to happen now so why undermine the team by just being the negative Nancy you always enjoy being and merely support them through seasons end. THEN continue to nag more than my wife.

 

[YOTHN]

That's how it will be spun, no matter what the reality is.

Bottom line is it's not right. Remember when Glass said that "at IU, contracts matter"? So too should be the commitment made to the student athlete. The Student Athlete Bill of Rights addresses that to a point, but if Crean starts using that as a backstop, I'm thinking Glass is going to have a problem with that. Or maybe I'm full of it. I don't claim to know anything. What I do think is that Glass is a principled man who has the interests of the students at heart and a wholesale Creaning due to oversigning won't go over well.

Roth got his degree; Creek was the one who I thought was treated shabbily myself, but most people didn't get too worked up because they never thought he'd ever be able to contribute again. Today, people are up in arms about a possible Hartman Creaning, since he would be a contributor next year, but I don't hear anyone bitching about Priller or Gelon being shown the door.

I disagree. You are saying its not right without knowing the situations. THAT my friend, is not right. You lay judgement without knowing truly ANY information. Good lord.

Notice Priller and Gelon were not "Creaned" last year. Why was that? You are so quick to pretend to be so certain about every situation but please explain why they both made it to this season? Again, you have NO clue whats going on behind the scenes and until you do, you placing judgement is worse than what you're claiming is being done.

 

[fpeaugh]

The same could be said about a lot of coaches who then went on to win the title. The point is you know nothing is going to happen now so why undermine the team by just being the negative Nancy you always enjoy being and merely support them through seasons end. THEN continue to nag more than my wife.

Please name those coaches. The ones who were mediocre at big programs for 17 years before breaking through and winning titles.

 

[YOTHN]

Over signing is my number one beef about the game. I hate it that Crean does it. In your scenario about being honest about PT and letting them make the choice, it's just sugar coating it. What if all players decide to return as their choice? Who's scholly gets pulled and exactly whose choice would it be ?

Ha an explanation of the situation is "sugar coating" it? No, it's explaining it in terms easy enough for some of you to understand. Again, you are making a negative assumption based off nothing. What if that happens? Who said someone's scholly has to be pulled? That's my point, we have no idea what conversations are going on but we DO know that no one has come out as having been axed by coach. If that happened to me like you guys want to portray, you better believe I would be shouting from the roof tops. Yet it hasn't happened....hmmm...

Do you think for a second that maybe....just maybe Crean and the player are having the conversation throughout the season and Crean is aware someone is going to transfer? Like a Hollowell. So he is recruiting to fill that spot? The thing is, no one knows. Until we are aware of wrong doing, who are you to assume the worst and then start bashing someone for it. So strange.

 

[YOTHN]

Please name those coaches. The ones who were mediocre at big programs for 17 years before breaking through and winning titles.

Explain to me where Indiana has been a "big program" without Crean in the past 22-23 years? I won't even start with Marquette....good lord.

 

[tru123dt]

yup, and patterson really appreciated getting on campus for a summer session and then packing his shtuff up and going home. did he say anything bad? no, the kids are taught not to. hurts their prospects. that's why you hardly ever hear kids complain.

ya, it happens every where a little bit but has happened at IU more. much more. and hasn't lead to sustainable success.

but rationalize away if it makes you feel better. sheeeesh.

I thought IU admissions found him not qualifying, since he did not pass a summer course.

 

[hondo314]

I thought IU admissions found him not qualifying, since he did not pass a summer course.

Didn't pass? He got a C - when he "needed" a C...and then was accepted to Syracuse, a harder school to get into than IU

He was creaned because we were still over signed by one going into the summer

That's how our guy rolls

 

[bigmac76]

Nine years watching this crap and it is just now "getting harder and harder to watch Crean coach"???!!! REALLY!!! What more evidence did you need after watching years 1-8?

I was at the game and it was VERY evident from the beginning that this could be another IPFW game. No intensity, no urgency, no one getting their butts chewed for terrible decisions, same old, same old. Just for the players information, if you only see two opposing players in front of you, there are three behind you.

I do have another question for anyone, what the hell is on CTC's piece of paper that he puts on the scorer's table? He looks at it FREQUENTLY.

Anyone else notice our first possession of the Nebraska game.....a 3 point shot 25 feet away by OUR CENTER!!! Result = LOSS.....Rewind to the IUPUFW game and our first possession....A 3 POINT SHOT FROM OUR CENTER....Result = LOSS!
We do not have a PG and our helter skelter/ hurry up offense cant win in crunch time...toss in 20 turn overs and you have a LOSS at home to Nebraska!
PS...."the note" at the scorers table is a reminder to pick up milk on the way home and let the cat out to go to the bathroom

 

[hondo314]

Explain to me where Indiana has been a "big program" without Crean in the past 22-23 years? I won't even start with Marquette....good lord.

Oh Jesus...so now IU and Marquette aren't basketball schools? Now neither school has won anything? Those are the things u tell yourself to rationalize 5 seeds?

Dude, you are truly broken.

 

[UncleMark]

I disagree. You are saying its not right without knowing the situations. THAT my friend, is not right. You lay judgement without knowing truly ANY information. Good lord.

We were talking about the nightmare scenario where JBJ, Bryant, OG, and Hartman all want to come back. Who gets "counseled" to look elsewhere? Do we not honor our offers? Or do we not honor our previous commitments to our current players? Sure, it's doubtful it will come to that, but the heavy oversigning is playing Russian roulette. If not this year, then in the future it will bite us in the azz (if it hasn't already from a recruiting standpoint).

Notice Priller and Gelon were not "Creaned" last year. Why was that? You are so quick to pretend to be so certain about every situation but please explain why they both made it to this season? Again, you have NO clue whats going on behind the scenes and until you do, you placing judgement is worse than what you're claiming is being done.

Lighten up Francis. Gelon wasn't even on the team last year. This year Priller will most likely have a degree, and since he's not a contributor no one gives a sh1t whether he's treated honorably or not.

 

[YOTHN]

Anyone else notice our first possession of the Nebraska game.....a 3 point shot 25 feet away by OUR CENTER!!! Result = LOSS.....Rewind to the IUPUFW game and our first possession....A 3 POINT SHOT FROM OUR CENTER....Result = LOSS!
We do not have a PG and our helter skelter/ hurry up offense cant win in crunch time...toss in 20 turn overs and you have a LOSS at home to Nebraska!
PS...."the note" at the scorers table is a reminder to pick up milk on the way home and let the cat out to go to the bathroom

Wait, so TB making a 3 pointer to start the game vs IPFW ......is why we lost to them?

 

[YOTHN]

We were talking about the nightmare scenario where JBJ, Bryant, OG, and Hartman all want to come back. Who gets "counseled" to look elsewhere? Do we not honor our offers? Or do we not honor our previous commitments to our current players? Sure, it's doubtful it will come to that, but the heavy oversigning is playing Russian roulette. If not this year, then in the future it will bite us in the azz (if it hasn't already from a recruiting standpoint).

Lighten up Francis. Gelon wasn't even on the team last year. This year Priller will most likely have a degree, and since he's not a contributor no one gives a sh1t whether he's treated honorably or not.

Right, under that nightmare scenario, it's plausible coach has already talked to these kids. That's my point, you have no idea what is happening but you are so confident in your judgments. I'm not saying your theories are not factual but since we don't know and no one is complaining, it seems like a stretch to be putting coach on blast without knowing the details.

As for Gelon, I know he wasn't here but everyone knew before he got on campus that we had another Priller-esque player and pulling a scholarship could've happened. I mean most say that happened to Ron Patterson so why not Gelon?