Nearly the entire SEC has ALREADY announced that..

[DANC]

You know, the evolution of the messaging on coronavirus numbers is pretty comical. Six or seven weeks ago, when we had conducted minimal testing and our (U.S.) numbers looked really good relative to the rest of the world, the message out of the executive branch and associated media was that we were doing an amazing job controlling this thing. Then, with more testing coupled with the horror stories coming out of New York, Detroit, New Orleans, etc., and as our numbers dramatically increased, the argument was that our numbers were accurate but the numbers from other countries couldn't be trusted. Now, with our numbers off the charts, the message is our numbers can't be trusted. Maybe the next message will be that there's no such thing as numbers.

It's a fact that the death counts included 'assumed' Covid-19 deaths - these are deaths where no test has been given to confirm. 3700 in one day were added to the NYC account.

Another fact is that New York and New Jersey account for half of US deaths.

The numbers have been low in states where it was predicted things would get as bad as New York - like Florida.

It's fact that for the population under 60, there is very little risk of death by the virus.

It's also a fact that the numbers of infected have risen in the US because the US leads the world in testing. Testing will naturally lead to the discovery of more infections.

What numbers are you claming are 'off the charts'?

 

[oldcougar77]

The # of deaths are being exploited by hospitals because they are paid thousands of dollars by the feds. My wife talked to a Mennonite woman, she knows, [her group is her sect is isolated from the public and she said one died at home from cancer and two from an automobile accident. When they got the death certificate they were reported to have COV19 despite their isolation. Don't take the #s about COV19 with any salt because they are not accurate about deaths in this country.

That's a false narrative (internet rumor). Hospitals are not being "paid more" for Covid cases nor is Medicaid reimbursement impacted. I would be wary of anyone, Mennonite or not, who is claiming that a death by cancer or auto accident was reported falsely on a death certificate. That "media" bias - and I use that term loosely - cuts both ways

As for how we interpret the seriousness of this thing, we need to be careful about using the narrow view that death numbers are the only thing that matters. The husband of a teaching colleague (whose daughter is also a student of mine) was one of the earlier cases in Indiana. He works for the airport authority in Indy and likely contracted it through work before the restrictions were in place. He's 44, seemingly perfect health, avid runner and cyclist. He spent 17 days in ICU, 13 on a ventilator. He's recovering but still has some lingering issues. Possibly some permanent lung damage. How many cases like that are out there, and how many more would there be without the rather drastic measures that have been taken.

Read Kyle Neddenreip's article in the Indy Star a couple of weeks back about the number of people who contracted the coronavirus after attending the basketball sectional at Lawrence Central the week before the shutdown. At least five deaths, and yes, four of the five over 60 - but three of those four with no underlying health issues. One death, a healthy guy aged 43 I think. A 33 year-old healthy man spent two weeks in ICU (most of that time in an induced coma) and was lucky to survive.

I'm not living in fear of this thing. I'm 60 and have no significant health issues. I've been out and about probably as much as anybody. But until there is an effective treatment for this thing ( I don't think it has to be a cure, just something that can mitigate the symptoms) I think crowds in confined spaces is playing with fire. I wouldn't want my son or daughter spending significant time in a locker room with a bunch of other kids - even if they are probably the healthiest sub-group of the population.

 

[82hoosier]

Some folks have no problem buying off on Medicaid fraud with absolutely no supporting evidence.

And they still can't grasp the fact that front-line workers beg people to stay at home.

 

[76-1]

This from a Front Liner: "There's plenty of younger than 45 who are Really sick..."

 

[Al Bino]

I do not know the integrity of this site but here is an article.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethb...tr20P8aFfxLhjkQ-E9vAXSkCZgvzo0jgeI2xVZE5Yyiho

 

[mobilehoosier]

In December of 2019 one of my sons HS baseball mates was hospitalized in Mobile being treated for pneumonia. (17, HS athlete, stud) He spent two weeks in the hospital. (They didn't know what it was.) This kid is as healthy as they come and doing well now but what he had put him down for two weeks.
His Mom thinks he had COVID-19 but no testing to confirm. Both my sons went to Dr. in December for respiratory problems. Dr. said virus.
I'm pretty sure this thing was around southern Alabama in Q4 2019 but we didn't know what it was.
I think we are in for a long ride. Stay safe.
Go Hoosiers!

 

[destewart]

I don't think the governor controls the count. Deaths are reported to the local coroner and then that info goes to places like the CDC. If there was a large difference between what the CDC says and what the Governor (via state health departments) says, the media would be all over it.

I agree politics may play into it, but only to raise the number via 'assumed' Covid-19 deaths (not tested). The verified virus deaths would be hard to hide , in this environment.

Here's the thing, and it's been reported here. Mortality rates for anyone under 60 are just extremely rare. I don't have the link, but I saw where 80% of deaths are those 80+.

I'm 65 and a cancer patient in remission. By all accounts, I'm high risk, although I don't have pulmonary issues). If IU said I need a clean bill of health to go to games, I'd get one. Wear a mask? Fine. (but I don't want the government requiring me to wear one when i leave the house) But those not in risk categories have very little to fear.

Happy you are in remission. I do not have cancer, but I do have compromised lungs and nobody to blame but myself. I do not have to be prompted by anyone to know a mask trumps vanity in my outside wardrobe. Drove from WL to Veedersburg yesterday and saw few masks on young or old. Little social distancing in evidence. Statistically the numbers in rural Indiana are low. In many Of our counties the most dangerous place to be is in a nursing home or a meat packing plant. Absent those two examples the virus is almost non existent.

 

[Pigalow]

Thoughts and prayers. That's not much of a plan. There is nothing to point at that would indicate that this will get better by August. On the contrary all signs point to this getting worse.

What would be much of a plan? To not plan at all? To plan on things getting worse? I see pretty much the entire world who's outbreak started before us getting better, much better in fact. From where we are right now, if things do get worse--we are a really talented people, because no other country in the world, has had an outbreak get worse from where we are right now. & re-opening isn't going to create this swell in cases that people are afraid of, imo, because we didn't close as much as we think we did in the 1st place. What kind of "lockdown" leaves open restaurants for carry out, ALL grocery stores, ALL banks, all gas stations, all pharmacies, convenience stores(why?), liquor stores(really?), plumbers who want to work, & everything else I'm forgetting, & allows people to go to those places UNCHECKED--"please social distance & wear masks"--well guess what, a whole lot of people didn't. Ever. That has got to be the weakest "lockdown" in history, & then those people go home where there are who knows how many millions of people. We didn't lock a damn thing down, but the good news is, as I said, that should mean reopening won't make a massive difference in the outbreak. With that, I see plenty that suggests things will be better by August.

 

[oldcougar77]

Happy you are in remission. I do not have cancer, but I do have compromised lungs and nobody to blame but myself. I do not have to be prompted by anyone to know a mask trumps vanity in my outside wardrobe. Drove from WL to Veedersburg yesterday and saw few masks on young or old. Little social distancing in evidence. Statistically the numbers in rural Indiana are low. In many Of our counties the most dangerous place to be is in a nursing home or a meat packing plant. Absent those two examples the virus is almost non existent.

Have you paused to consider that the reason those two places are hotbeds of the virus is because of inadequate social distancing (I'm not blaming, just the nature of those facilities). How likely is it that if schools and colleges were in session, factories where people work side-by-side were operating, restaurants were operating with full crowds, people were sitting side-by-side in crowded gyms and theaters etc., that those places would be quite dangerous as well.

In other words, have you considered WHY the virus is "almost nonexistent".

 

[Pigalow]

It is a big jump from holding some classes on campus and playing football. I doubt there will be any lecture hall classes with 300 students. Packing 60,000 folks into an extra curricular activity? Will the bands play? Would there be concession stands?

But the biggest issue is what does a team do regarding social distancing? Everyone should realize that players and staff would get sick.

It's a big jump from having 1000's of students on campus to playing football? That's news to a whole lot of AD's because they think they can play football whether students are on campus or not(some of them). Having students on campus would make playing football a no brainer, in their minds, they see it exactly backwards to how you do.

 

[DANC]

In December of 2019 one of my sons HS baseball mates was hospitalized in Mobile being treated for pneumonia. (17, HS athlete, stud) He spent two weeks in the hospital. (They didn't know what it was.) This kid is as healthy as they come and doing well now but what he had put him down for two weeks.
His Mom thinks he had COVID-19 but no testing to confirm. Both my sons went to Dr. in December for respiratory problems. Dr. said virus.
I'm pretty sure this thing was around southern Alabama in Q4 2019 but we didn't know what it was.
I think we are in for a long ride. Stay safe.
Go Hoosiers!

I had something on Christmas that laid me so low I wanted to die. Really bad diahrrea (sorry, if tmi) and so weak, with a cough (but not that painful). That cough lasted for 2 months, but it wasn't in my lungs that much.

My family laughs because I think I had it then - it was unlike anything I'd had in the past and it took forever to get over.

I've had pneumonia before. It takes a long time to get over, too, and it affects people differently. And, with pneumonia, the younger people can get it and get over it, but it can be deadly with the aged and with other conitions.

 

[Pigalow]

I like you guys but I believe you're dead wrong.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

This reopen at all cost stuff IS going to cost us dearly in my opinion...

//See how the Spanish Flu was reignited for reference...//

Austria & Italy would suggest otherwise, they both began to reopen on April 14th & are doing very well. Regardless, how well is being "closed" working out for us? It's already costing us dearly, I think because we haven't really closed down to begin with, & how long do you think we can sit at home? That's a serious question, can we sit at home until there's a vaccine? 12-18 months? If ever? Until the outbreak "gets under control"? I don;t see what difference that makes, if reopening is going too cause a jump in cases, supposedly, then what difference does it make to wait until there are less active cases? You'll still end up in the same place, will you not? & I think NYC's outbreak has shown that the fears of running out of medical equipment were a bit unfounded, so I don't see what staying "closed" gains you at this point. People scream "lives""--but we're not saving them with what we're doing!! We have NOT mitigated this outbreak, & it frustrates me that so many people still think we are--you saw the "shocking" news from Cuomo the other day? 66% of NYC's hospitalizations are from people who had sheltered in place, at home. Supposedly safe. What does that tell you? Not to mention the catastrophic #'s in cases & deaths that we have, but yet we're still told that staying home has made a difference. Well the way we've half assed it, I'm not sure which direction it has made a difference.

 

[Al Bino]

I received an email the other day and then confirmed it on the CDC site.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

In 1968, Woodstock and the year of love happened in the middle of a pandemic. Hong Kong (H3N2) flu killed one million world wide and 100K in the US.

All viruses are different but the point of the email to me was that the economy was not shut down, no social distancing and no masks.

Personally I don't know that you can draw that conclusion but it is interesting.

 

[destewart]

Have you paused to consider that the reason those two places are hotbeds of the virus is because of inadequate social distancing (I'm not blaming, just the nature of those facilities). How likely is it that if schools and colleges were in session, factories where people work side-by-side were operating, restaurants were operating with full crowds, people were sitting side-by-side in crowded gyms and theaters etc., that those places would be quite dangerous as well.

In other words, have you considered WHY the virus is "almost nonexistent".

Certainly. Why else would I even mention them? But, it was not just density because nursing homes have been in many cases poorly operated and given loose reins by state or federal agencies for decades. Same for packing plants. Wherever inspectors can be easily bribed there is potential for abuses. Is this all that much different than VA corruption? We have no such virus problems in auto plants and other factories. Do you know the huge pork processing plant in the Dakota’s (Smithfield) is owned by China? Did you know they are buying big in agricultural areas like seed companies?

 

[Bowlmania]

I received an email the other day and then confirmed it on the CDC site.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

In 1968, Woodstock and the year of love happened in the middle of a pandemic. Hong Kong (H3N2) flu killed one million world wide and 100K in the US.

All viruses are different but the point of the email to me was that the economy was not shut down, no social distancing and no masks.

Personally I don't know that you can draw that conclusion but it is interesting.

Woodstock was in the summer of 1969, not 1968. The Hong Kong flu was primarily a winter contagion in the U.S and was not a serious threat to Woodstock participants. STDs were much more of a concern, I would imagine.

 

[mobilehoosier]

I had something on Christmas that laid me so low I wanted to die. Really bad diahrrea (sorry, if tmi) and so weak, with a cough (but not that painful). That cough lasted for 2 months, but it wasn't in my lungs that much.

My family laughs because I think I had it then - it was unlike anything I'd had in the past and it took forever to get over.

I've had pneumonia before. It takes a long time to get over, too, and it affects people differently. And, with pneumonia, the younger people can get it and get over it, but it can be deadly with the aged and with other conitions.

I have enjoyed this dialog. Thanks for the intelligent discussion, be safe and go Hoosiers!

 

[Al Bino]

Woodstock was in the summer of 1969, not 1968. The Hong Kong flu was primarily a winter contagion in the U.S and was not a serious threat to Woodstock participants. STDs were much more of a concern, I would imagine.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the HK flu came back in the fall of 69 and was more deadly, like they are afraid CoVid will be, soooo Woodstock being in the summer of 69 would have been technically, right in the middle of the pandemic.

 

[MyTeamIsOnTheFloor]

I received an email the other day and then confirmed it on the CDC site.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html

In 1968, Woodstock and the year of love happened in the middle of a pandemic. Hong Kong (H3N2) flu killed one million world wide and 100K in the US.

All viruses are different but the point of the email to me was that the economy was not shut down, no social distancing and no masks.

Personally I don't know that you can draw that conclusion but it is interesting.

I remember the Hong Kong flu because I had it!

My memory is being curled up in our rocking chair, too sick to moan.

A close family friend was there, and he teased me that if I survived, he'd take me to get ice cream.

 

[82hoosier]

Where else could Forrest Gump have gotten an athletic scholarship?

 

[DANC]

I have enjoyed this dialog. Thanks for the intelligent discussion, be safe and go Hoosiers!

Same here!

 

[channi]

The # of deaths are being exploited by hospitals because they are paid thousands of dollars by the feds. My wife talked to a Mennonite woman, she knows, [her group is her sect is isolated from the public and she said one died at home from cancer and two from an automobile accident. When they got the death certificate they were reported to have COV19 despite their isolation. Don't take the #s about COV19 with any salt because they are not accurate about deaths in this country.

The only way a hospital makes money on a Medicare patient is if the patient dies shortly after admission. Most of these older coronavirus patients are big money losers for the hospitals. They way outspend their DRG's.

 

[oldcougar77]

Certainly. Why else would I even mention them? But, it was not just density because nursing homes have been in many cases poorly operated and given loose reins by state or federal agencies for decades. Same for packing plants. Wherever inspectors can be easily bribed there is potential for abuses. Is this all that much different than VA corruption? We have no such virus problems in auto plants and other factories. Do you know the huge pork processing plant in the Dakota’s (Smithfield) is owned by China? Did you know they are buying big in agricultural areas like seed companies?

Bribing inspectors has nothing to do with Covid cases - density does. And are you seriously suggesting that China is deliberately trying to give people the virus in its US-owned businesses ? Otherwise, none of the rest of your post has any relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand ?

But I do remember the small-town geniuses sitting in my dad's barbershop in the mid-1980's who just knew for certain that the devious Japanese were buying up American property and businesses in order to wipe out the US economy.

My dad is now in his 80's and a couple of his buddies are convinced this thing is all a hoax and are unbelievably worked up. They honestly believe that their civil liberties are being trampled on by the social distancing mandates. In reality, they are just pissed off that they can't sit in the coffee shop from 6 am until noon every day with their cronies and spend every evening eating dinner in a crowded restaurant with their wives and social group.

BTW, how much property and how many businesses do American corporations own in China ? How many sweatshops and crowded assembly lines are we operating over there in the midst of a pandemic ?

 

[DANC]

Bribing inspectors has nothing to do with Covid cases - density does. And are you seriously suggesting that China is deliberately trying to give people the virus in its US-owned businesses ? Otherwise, none of the rest of your post has any relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand ?

But I do remember the small-town geniuses sitting in my dad's barbershop in the mid-1980's who just knew for certain that the devious Japanese were buying up American property and businesses in order to wipe out the US economy.

My dad is now in his 80's and a couple of his buddies are convinced this thing is all a hoax and are unbelievably worked up. They honestly believe that their civil liberties are being trampled on by the social distancing mandates. In reality, they are just pissed off that they can't sit in the coffee shop from 6 am until noon every day with their cronies and spend every evening eating dinner in a crowded restaurant with their wives and social group.

BTW, how much property and how many businesses do American corporations own in China ? How many sweatshops and crowded assembly lines are we operating over " in the midst of a pandemic ?

"I...... sit in the coffee shop from 6 am until noon every day with their cronies and spend every evening eating dinner in a crowded restaurant with their wives and social group."

That's the very definition of civil liberites. They have every right to think their civil liberties are being trampled. Because they are.

 

[destewart]

Bribing inspectors has nothing to do with Covid cases - density does. And are you seriously suggesting that China is deliberately trying to give people the virus in its US-owned businesses ? Otherwise, none of the rest of your post has any relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand ?

But I do remember the small-town geniuses sitting in my dad's barbershop in the mid-1980's who just knew for certain that the devious Japanese were buying up American property and businesses in order to wipe out the US economy.

My dad is now in his 80's and a couple of his buddies are convinced this thing is all a hoax and are unbelievably worked up. They honestly believe that their civil liberties are being trampled on by the social distancing mandates. In reality, they are just pissed off that they can't sit in the coffee shop from 6 am until noon every day with their cronies and spend every evening eating dinner in a crowded restaurant with their wives and social group.

BTW, how much property and how many businesses do American corporations own in China ? How many sweatshops and crowded assembly lines are we operating over there in the midst of a pandemic ?

Oh I am sure it is just a coincidence that Chinese have concentrated on investments in the U.S. food chain and prescription drugs, PPE’s and the like of items we no longer manufacture. Comparing a free and democratic Japan and a communist China is a stretch, is it not? You old enough to remember the cultural revolution when they killed millions of their smartest and most productive?

 

[oldcougar77]

"I...... sit in the coffee shop from 6 am until noon every day with their cronies and spend every evening eating dinner in a crowded restaurant with their wives and social group."

That's the very definition of civil liberites. They have every right to think their civil liberties are being trampled. Because they are.

It's the definition of being inconvenienced, not losing your civil liberties. They can gather if they please at each other's homes, buy takeout, whatever. They do not have an inherent right to put servers and cashiers at risk because they want a service that isn't essential. THE primary function of government is to protect those that others would place in peril. In a public health crisis, as in wartime, the concept of protection necessarily expands to areas it doesn't ordinarily cover.

 

[vesuvius13]

That's a false narrative (internet rumor). Hospitals are not being "paid more" for Covid cases nor is Medicaid reimbursement impacted. I would be wary of anyone, Mennonite or not, who is claiming that a death by cancer or auto accident was reported falsely on a death certificate. That "media" bias - and I use that term loosely - cuts both ways

As for how we interpret the seriousness of this thing, we need to be careful about using the narrow view that death numbers are the only thing that matters. The husband of a teaching colleague (whose daughter is also a student of mine) was one of the earlier cases in Indiana. He works for the airport authority in Indy and likely contracted it through work before the restrictions were in place. He's 44, seemingly perfect health, avid runner and cyclist. He spent 17 days in ICU, 13 on a ventilator. He's recovering but still has some lingering issues. Possibly some permanent lung damage. How many cases like that are out there, and how many more would there be without the rather drastic measures that have been taken.

Read Kyle Neddenreip's article in the Indy Star a couple of weeks back about the number of people who contracted the coronavirus after attending the basketball sectional at Lawrence Central the week before the shutdown. At least five deaths, and yes, four of the five over 60 - but three of those four with no underlying health issues. One death, a healthy guy aged 43 I think. A 33 year-old healthy man spent two weeks in ICU (most of that time in an induced coma) and was lucky to survive.

I'm not living in fear of this thing. I'm 60 and have no significant health issues. I've been out and about probably as much as anybody. But until there is an effective treatment for this thing ( I don't think it has to be a cure, just something that can mitigate the symptoms) I think crowds in confined spaces is playing with fire. I wouldn't want my son or daughter spending significant time in a locker room with a bunch of other kids - even if they are probably the healthiest sub-group of the population.

You must not have listened to the CDC that said they were liberal on deaths for COVID. Yes this virus can be dangerous for some people, I guarantee you the lady wasn't lying about what happened. You also ignore how many people are dying or getting much worse due to our shutdown. It is worse than the cure of isolation and cleaning areas and making sure sick people stay home will allow our society to do better in the coming weeks. More and more info is coming out showing stay isolated was making things worse and infecting people.
Effective drugs have been found and there will be more soon, ventilators only save 18% of people on them so it is really not the answer except for a small percentage of patients.

 

[vesuvius13]

It's the definition of being inconvenienced, not losing your civil liberties. They can gather if they please at each other's homes, buy takeout, whatever. They do not have an inherent right to put servers and cashiers at risk because they want a service that isn't essential. THE primary function of government is to protect those that others would place in peril. In a public health crisis, as in wartime, the concept of protection necessarily expands to areas it doesn't ordinarily cover.

"Inconviences to you are job losses that are essential to many and it should be up to the individual what choice they make. Losing our rights to assemble and go where we choose may not come back as power hungry politicians find out how much power we let them have; just look how far some have taken the shutdown IE Michigan. This virus is not like a war and we shouldn't act like it is. The number of healthy people dying from this is a small number and if we protect elderly in nursing homes and in our society the deaths would be far smaller. You need to investigate news outside your bubble and see there are different facts than are being reported by our press.

 

[Bowlmania]

This virus is not like a war and we shouldn't act like it is

You're contradicting our president. He's repeatedly (going back to mid-March) described this crisis as a war. On Thursday he said "it's the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center; there's never been an attack like this."

You need to pay closer attention to the president's media scrums and Twitter feed. They're very revealing.

 

[iueyedoc99]

Regarding the government - I'm in the freedom of choice camp. People should be able to chose what's best for their family. Legislation of moral issues like marriage, drugs, etc is a loser and impossible to control but can be punished. Again follow the money. As long as you don't hurt me or my family, damage my property, or steal from me I'm good. You got me going on the Govt. Huge grin! Best of luck moving forward.

You do know that requiring those around you to wear masks is to protect you and your family right? The type of masks people are wearing outside of hospitals (non N95) isn’t to protect the wearer, its to protect those in contact with the wearer.

 

[oldcougar77]

"Inconviences to you are job losses that are essential to many and it should be up to the individual what choice they make. Losing our rights to assemble and go where we choose may not come back as power hungry politicians find out how much power we let them have; just look how far some have taken the shutdown IE Michigan. This virus is not like a war and we shouldn't act like it is. The number of healthy people dying from this is a small number and if we protect elderly in nursing homes and in our society the deaths would be far smaller. You need to investigate news outside your bubble and see there are different facts than are being reported by our press.

You need to take off your tinfoil hat and turn off Fox news. The owner of that restaurant you want to sit in isn't at risk of getting the virus, but the single mother who has to serve your spoiled ass is. With the shutdown, she can draw unemployment and stay home with her kids while their schools are closed. Otherwise, that owner (likely as not a large corporation of wealthy investors) can order her back to work. The shutdown in Michigan, like in every state where the outbreak has been severe, is designed to flatten the curve and give medical facilities a chance to keep pace with the number of sick. It's guidelines are those recommended by medical experts. The dipshits carrying confederate flags and protesting with guns in the Statehouse are not really concerned about liberty. They are mostly bigots whose purpose is to do political damage to a governor Trump sees as a threat to his reelection.

The shutdown will end when it's safe to do so, as it will in all states (including Indiana - who fortunately has a governor with an independent brain not stuck up the President's ass).

 

[Hoosiers Rising]

"Inconviences to you are job losses that are essential to many and it should be up to the individual what choice they make. Losing our rights to assemble and go where we choose may not come back as power hungry politicians find out how much power we let them have; just look how far some have taken the shutdown IE Michigan. This virus is not like a war and we shouldn't act like it is. The number of healthy people dying from this is a small number and if we protect elderly in nursing homes and in our society the deaths would be far smaller. You need to investigate news outside your bubble and see there are different facts than are being reported by our press.

When we look back on this we will find a lot of mistakes were made. I think that is to be expected with something new like this. People were already shutting things down before the state did here in indiana. 2 weeks before the shut down our church had about 20 people out of the usual hundred or so and most of those the younger crowd. There was no handshaking or visiting just an abbreviated service and out the door. The next week there was no in person service and that was before the shutdown. People were already skipping eating out and the run on groceries had already begun, and all this in a very rural area. Things were going to shut down anyway. At least with the official shut down workers and business were able to get money from the govt.

 

[UncleMark]

When we look back on this we will find a lot of mistakes were made. I think that is to be expected with something new like this. People were already shutting things down before the state did here in indiana. 2 weeks before the shut down our church had about 20 people out of the usual hundred or so and most of those the younger crowd. There was no handshaking or visiting just an abbreviated service and out the door. The next week there was no in person service and that was before the shutdown. People were already skipping eating out and the run on groceries had already begun, and all this in a very rural area. Things were going to shut down anyway. At least with the official shut down workers and business were able to get money from the govt.

My company's business was going to shit long before there were any government mandates. We manufacture goods that are used in large corporate gatherings, conventions, awards ceremonies, etc., and those activities were being cancelled beginning in February. We had gone to a reduced work week (with consummate reduced pay). When the stay at home orders came out, we went on full furlough.

We came back full time this week. My owner is promising a full 40 hour work week for the staff, which I am sure is mandated by the terms of the PPP loan/grant he was able to get. We don't have anywhere close to the amount of work needed to be fully staffed, but no matter -- everyone is drawing a paycheck, and the place is getting a long overdue cleanup and clearout of accumulated junk.

In the meantime, based simply on the number of inquiries and actual orders we're seeing, it's seems like things are loosening up. Whether that's good or bad or right or wrong I won't get into here. We're doing everything imaginable to reduce the risk, with the masks and gloves and distancing and temperature checks every morning. One production gal has been retasked to spend her entire day cleaning and wiping down common touch surfaces.

Me, I'm high risk due to age and compromised respiratory function. My wife checks every high risk box except obesity. Am I concerned about infection? You bet. Nevertheless, you gotta do what you gotta do. I'm playing by all the rules and not doing anything foolish, and most everyone around me is doing the same.

We have actually made out well financially -- my income on the enhanced unemployment was more than my normal salary. And that $2400 that showed up last week bumped the bank balance nicely too.

Discussion and debates about policy are fine and dandy. Anyone who reads the Cooler knows no one likes that stuff any more than I do. But in the final analysis each of us has to decide how we're going to act based on our own circumstances. Government has a role to play; we need to prevent the reckless douchebags from endangering people, but at the same time we need to be able to do what's necessary to take care of ourselves and our families. For some, that means staying isolated. For others, that means going to work. For others, that means finding a middle ground.

In the meantime, I'm hoping they figure out a way to play football. I'm a selfish bastard that way.

 

[DANC]

It's the definition of being inconvenienced, not losing your civil liberties. They can gather if they please at each other's homes, buy takeout, whatever. They do not have an inherent right to put servers and cashiers at risk because they want a service that isn't essential. THE primary function of government is to protect those that others would place in peril. In a public health crisis, as in wartime, the concept of protection necessarily expands to areas it doesn't ordinarily cover.

I guess I know what side you would have been on in the American revolution.

I don't mean that as a put-down. But you and I have different versions of civil liberties.

And last time I looked, the right to assemble has not been revoked.

 

[DANC]

You're contradicting our president. He's repeatedly (going back to mid-March) described this crisis as a war. On Thursday he said "it's the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center; there's never been an attack like this."

You need to pay closer attention to the president's media scrums and Twitter feed. They're very revealing.

I'm surprised. I didn't take you for a Trump supporter!

 

[DANC]

You do know that requiring those around you to wear masks is to protect you and your family right? The type of masks people are wearing outside of hospitals (non N95) isn’t to protect the wearer, its to protect those in contact with the wearer.

If masks are so effective, why doesn't every business just require patrons to wear masks? Why not start up all sports today?

Wearing masks is the new advising everyone to stay home. It's popular and trendy, but when it comes down to actual effectiveness, it's not all that.

 

[DANC]

You need to take off your tinfoil hat and turn off Fox news. The owner of that restaurant you want to sit in isn't at risk of getting the virus, but the single mother who has to serve your spoiled ass is. With the shutdown, she can draw unemployment and stay home with her kids while their schools are closed. Otherwise, that owner (likely as not a large corporation of wealthy investors) can order her back to work. The shutdown in Michigan, like in every state where the outbreak has been severe, is designed to flatten the curve and give medical facilities a chance to keep pace with the number of sick. It's guidelines are those recommended by medical experts. The dipshits carrying confederate flags and protesting with guns in the Statehouse are not really concerned about liberty. They are mostly bigots whose purpose is to do political damage to a governor Trump sees as a threat to his reelection.

The shutdown will end when it's safe to do so, as it will in all states (including Indiana - who fortunately has a governor with an independent brain not stuck up the President's ass).

You are proving your position is purely political.

In Michigan, you can kayak, but you can't operate a motor boat. What sense does that make to you? You can't go from a house you own to another house you own. Does that make sense to you?

Michiganders aren't protesting safety measures - they're protesting the ridiculous nit-picking rules that have no bearing on safety.

 

[DANC]

You do know that requiring those around you to wear masks is to protect you and your family right? The type of masks people are wearing outside of hospitals (non N95) isn’t to protect the wearer, its to protect those in contact with the wearer.

 

[UncleMark]

You can't go from a house you own to another house you own. Does that make sense to you?

That policy has a legit public health basis. It's intended to keep those with vacation homes from traveling from urban areas with high rates of infection to rural areas with low rates of infection.

 

[UncleMark]

If masks are so effective, why doesn't every business just require patrons to wear masks?

Many have. Some have been killed for it.

Fauci has changed his tune on masks. He's allowed to do that. I in fact appreciate a willingness to change the policy based on further consideration and experience. Wearing masks was originally being touted as help prevent the wearer from being infected. Fauci was disputing that, saying that the protection provided to the wearer by hospital masks (not the full N95 surgical masks) was minimal and could be offset by increasing hands-to-face touching and the like. They've now weighed those considerations against the protection masks provide for transmission from the wearer, and have decided there is a net benefit.

 

[DANC]

That policy has a legit public health basis. It's intended to keep those with vacation homes from traveling from urban areas with high rates of infection to rural areas with low rates of infection.

It's ridiculous. If that's the rationale, why aren't they blocking all roads in and out of areas with a high rate of infection?