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Nearly the entire SEC has ALREADY announced that..

I believe the biggest danger is in group settings where people yell, cheer, shout, sing which along with coughs and sneezes and physical exertion expels sputum and can infect multiple people. I sing in a choir when I am in the south and I can see the end of choirs because you can not practice or perform without having people in close proximity. Just one example of a new normal. Same can be said with just normal singing of hymns in the congregation.

Are you saying an end to choirs permanently??

As of yet, I see no reason to believe this virus will not pass just like every virus in the past.
 
Are you saying an end to choirs permanently??

As of yet, I see no reason to believe this virus will not pass just like every virus in the past.

There are a lot of things changed in time of crisis that are forever altered. Once they armored cockpit doors, armed pilots and air Marshall’s, required photo ID’s, established “Do Not Fly” lists and installed metal detectors at what point had they already accomplished the goal of discouraging attacks on airplanes without turning air travel into a miserable experience? At what point do trillions become yesterday’s billion’s.
 
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There are a lot of things changed in time of crisis that are forever altered. Once they armored cockpit doors, armed pilots and air Marshall’s, required photo ID’s, established “Do Not Fly” lists and installed metal detectors at what point had they already accomplished the goal of discouraging attacks on airplanes without turning air travel into a miserable experience? At what point do trillions become yesterday’s billion’s.

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a terrorist attack and a virus (unless the virus IS a terrorist attack). Terrorists are a fairly new threat. They espouse violence and we (the good guys) are trying to maintain a free society and our way of life. They are trying to destroy the same. Steps were taken to help mitigate the chance of a terrorist bringing down a plane. One can argue that they went to far but....

Viruses have been with humanity since, well, humanity. They come, kill some and go. They have no agenda but to live and reproduce. I have said on here before that there is a continuous arms race between us and the microbial world. Hell, there are so many viruses and bacteria in and on the human body that they actually out number human cells.

To make wholesale changes to our way of life because of this one virus borders on hysteria. CoVid wasn't the first pandemic virus and it won't be the last. Of that you can bet on. I am just not sure why this one was treated so differently. As I previously posted, the Hong Kong flu killed 100k Americans and 1m world wide. H1N1 killed up to 545k world wide.

Everyone can do what they want in the future. No shaking hands, don't kiss the grand kids, live in a bubble if you want but I will just try and be smart and live my life.
 
IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a terrorist attack and a virus (unless the virus IS a terrorist attack). Terrorists are a fairly new threat. They espouse violence and we (the good guys) are trying to maintain a free society and our way of life. They are trying to destroy the same. Steps were taken to help mitigate the chance of a terrorist bringing down a plane. One can argue that they went to far but....

Viruses have been with humanity since, well, humanity. They come, kill some and go. They have no agenda but to live and reproduce. I have said on here before that there is a continuous arms race between us and the microbial world. Hell, there are so many viruses and bacteria in and on the human body that they actually out number human cells.

To make wholesale changes to our way of life because of this one virus borders on hysteria. CoVid wasn't the first pandemic virus and it won't be the last. Of that you can bet on. I am just not sure why this one was treated so differently. As I previously posted, the Hong Kong flu killed 100k Americans and 1m world wide. H1N1 killed up to 545k world wide.

It became a political weapon in the eyes of both sides.
Everyone can do what they want in the future. No shaking hands, don't kiss the grand kids, live in a bubble if you want but I will just try and be smart and live my life.
 
IMO, there is a HUGE difference between a terrorist attack and a virus (unless the virus IS a terrorist attack). Terrorists are a fairly new threat. They espouse violence and we (the good guys) are trying to maintain a free society and our way of life. They are trying to destroy the same. Steps were taken to help mitigate the chance of a terrorist bringing down a plane. One can argue that they went to far but....

Viruses have been with humanity since, well, humanity. They come, kill some and go. They have no agenda but to live and reproduce. I have said on here before that there is a continuous arms race between us and the microbial world. Hell, there are so many viruses and bacteria in and on the human body that they actually out number human cells.

To make wholesale changes to our way of life because of this one virus borders on hysteria. CoVid wasn't the first pandemic virus and it won't be the last. Of that you can bet on. I am just not sure why this one was treated so differently. As I previously posted, the Hong Kong flu killed 100k Americans and 1m world wide. H1N1 killed up to 545k world wide.

Everyone can do what they want in the future. No shaking hands, don't kiss the grand kids, live in a bubble if you want but I will just try and be smart and live my life.
We're not just bordering on hysteria - it's full blown hysteria.
 
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Has it ever occurred to you that by the time a majority is over the top about civil liberties concerns they may have been lost!
Funny. Has it occurred to you that there is a disturbing number of people in this country screaming about a loss of civil liberties because they can't eat in a restaurant dining room, but who don't bat an eye at a POTUS doing his dead-level best to silence any criticism in a free press ? Not only do they not bat an eye, they actively support it.

You tell me which is a greater threat to civil liberties.
 
Funny. Has it occurred to you that there is a disturbing number of people in this country screaming about a loss of civil liberties because they can't eat in a restaurant dining room, but who don't bat an eye at a POTUS doing his dead-level best to silence any criticism in a free press ? Not only do they not bat an eye, they actively support it.

You tell me which is a greater threat to civil liberties.

Well I don't know. I see plenty of criticism of Trump in the press. Maybe more than ever. Yet I can't eat in a restaurant.
 
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Funny. Has it occurred to you that there is a disturbing number of people in this country screaming about a loss of civil liberties because they can't eat in a restaurant dining room, but who don't bat an eye at a POTUS doing his dead-level best to silence any criticism in a free press ? Not only do they not bat an eye, they actively support it.

You tell me which is a greater threat to civil liberties.

I fear an ideologically corrupt fourth estate far more than an elected public official who can be replaced at the ballot box.
 
Funny. Has it occurred to you that there is a disturbing number of people in this country screaming about a loss of civil liberties because they can't eat in a restaurant dining room, but who don't bat an eye at a POTUS doing his dead-level best to silence any criticism in a free press ? Not only do they not bat an eye, they actively support it.

You tell me which is a greater threat to civil liberties.

Because the truth is political party is more important than country.
 
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Has it ever occurred to you that by the time a majority is over the top about civil liberties concerns they may have been lost!
Yes! Before you know it the government will be telling us that we can't text while driving, or smoke in a public place, or get on a plane without having to first pass through a metal detector and/or get patted down, etc.
 
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Yes! Before you know it the government will be telling us that we can't text while driving, or smoke in a public place, or get on a plane without having to first pass through a metal detector and/or get patted down, etc.

Maybe because texting and driving has led to accidents and people ignoring the issue like it could never happen to them.

When people think their right to smoke anywhere is more important than other people's right not to have secondhand smoke and the resulting health issues, then someone has to step in ;)

If people didn't try sneaking weapons/bombs onto the planes, then we wouldn't need metal detectors. Maybe you should be pissed at the people trying to harm others.
 
Danc, do you think any of your civil liberties concerns could be considered as being over the top? Personally I sometimes consider it a mild hysteria
No, I don't think it's possible to be over the top when discussing the dissolution of civil rights.
 
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Funny. Has it occurred to you that there is a disturbing number of people in this country screaming about a loss of civil liberties because they can't eat in a restaurant dining room, but who don't bat an eye at a POTUS doing his dead-level best to silence any criticism in a free press ? Not only do they not bat an eye, they actively support it.

You tell me which is a greater threat to civil liberties.
Ah, there it is. Orange man bad.

It's OK to deprive people of their civil rights, because Trump is President.

The IRS targeting Conservative groups is OK. But Trump criticizing those who lie about him is trying to 'silence' someone.
 
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Oh yea, everyone coming out against trump is lying.

I have beach front property in indiana to sell you.
 
sorry, i have property on real beaches on the ocean in indiana to sell you

or some toilet paper signed by trump that i got in the mail the other week. sure you would pay top dollar for that. ;)
 
Maybe because texting and driving has led to accidents and people ignoring the issue like it could never happen to them.

When people think their right to smoke anywhere is more important than other people's right not to have secondhand smoke and the resulting health issues, then someone has to step in ;)

If people didn't try sneaking weapons/bombs onto the planes, then we wouldn't need metal detectors. Maybe you should be pissed at the people trying to harm others.
You missed my point but my bad, probably, because sarcasm doesn't always come through in the written word. What you wrote is my point exactly.

Our freedoms sometimes are restricted, and properly so, when we're talking about public health and safety. The examples I provided all infringe on individual liberties to some extent - - but they save lives.

We still have a working constitution in this country and there's little to no chance that measures that have been put into place in an effort to contain a once-in-a-century pandemic, and thereby save lives in the process, will lead to permanent constraints. And there's still a ballot box so any politician who is perceived to have gone too far will have to answer to voters on election day.

Finally, what sometimes seems to get lost in the "what about my freedoms?!" argument is consideration and respect for others. What about the essential worker who an asymptomatic carrier might infect? What about medical resources that are exhausted by Covid-19 patients, leaving people with significant non-Covid conditions having to wait for treatment, to their detriment? What about people with heart attack or stroke symptoms who are not calling 9-1-1 (this has been documented in many areas) because they don't want to go to a hospital and risk the virus?

In a crisis like this, and particularly if one professes to be a Christian, it shouldn't be just "me, me, me." Isn't that antithetical to the message of Christ? What about the Golden Rule, or "WWJD?" I don't see or hear many references to that anymore. My point is that reasonable constraints, safeguards and sacrifices (like wearing a mask in enclosed public spaces, for example) can help protect others and save lives. This is basic human decency.
 
sorry, i have property on real beaches on the ocean in indiana to sell you

or some toilet paper signed by trump that i got in the mail the other week. sure you would pay top dollar for that. ;)
Pretty funny you didn't know Indiana has a beach.

Even funnier you think your juvenile comeback makes you look like anything but a putz.
 
You missed my point but my bad, probably, because sarcasm doesn't always come through in the written word. What you wrote is my point exactly.

Our freedoms sometimes are restricted, and properly so, when we're talking about public health and safety. The examples I provided all infringe on individual liberties to some extent - - but they save lives.

We still have a working constitution in this country and there's little to no chance that measures that have been put into place in an effort to contain a once-in-a-century pandemic, and thereby save lives in the process, will lead to permanent constraints. And there's still a ballot box so any politician who is perceived to have gone too far will have to answer to voters on election day.

Finally, what sometimes seems to get lost in the "what about my freedoms?!" argument is consideration and respect for others. What about the essential worker who an asymptomatic carrier might infect? What about medical resources that are exhausted by Covid-19 patients, leaving people with significant non-Covid conditions having to wait for treatment, to their detriment? What about people with heart attack or stroke symptoms who are not calling 9-1-1 (this has been documented in many areas) because they don't want to go to a hospital and risk the virus?

In a crisis like this, and particularly if one professes to be a Christian, it shouldn't be just "me, me, me." Isn't that antithetical to the message of Christ? What about the Golden Rule, or "WWJD?" I don't see or hear many references to that anymore. My point is that reasonable constraints, safeguards and sacrifices (like wearing a mask in enclosed public spaces, for example) can help protect others and save lives. This is basic human decency.
"I don't see or hear many references to that anymore."

Really? And why do you think that is?

Maybe it's because of the abuse heaped on Christians today? Maybe it's the insistence of religion having no place in the government,

Why would you expect the United States to follow Christian principles when it's the position of one political party to ignore its precepts?
 
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That policy has a legit public health basis. It's intended to keep those with vacation homes from traveling from urban areas with high rates of infection to rural areas with low rates of infection.


Wouldn't an ill person threaten the health of more people in a crowded environment than in a rural environment?
 
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Ah, there it is. Orange man bad.

It's OK to deprive people of their civil rights, because Trump is President.

The IRS targeting Conservative groups is OK. But Trump criticizing those who lie about him is trying to 'silence' someone.
If you expect me to take your argument seriously, you first need to learn the difference between "civil rights" and "civil liberties". And if you would, during your study of the Constitution, would you please call your pal in the White House and explain to him the definition of treason. He definitely has a problem understanding the concept. Then again, he doesn't understand much about that document at all - nor does he seem to care.
 
I'm gonna wear a mask when I'm out and about.

And I'm not gonna put myself in too many situations where I detect an unreasonable risk of infection.

And I'm gonna trust my fellow citizens to not cough on me while they are sick.

And when I touch stuff, I'm gonna wash my hands.

Hope that's OK with everybody.
 
If you expect me to take your argument seriously, you first need to learn the difference between "civil rights" and "civil liberties". And if you would, during your study of the Constitution, would you please call your pal in the White House and explain to him the definition of treason. He definitely has a problem understanding the concept. Then again, he doesn't understand much about that document at all - nor does he seem to care.
I see a lot of words with no facts to back them up.

Your argument is "Orange man bad".
 
I'm gonna wear a mask when I'm out and about.

And I'm not gonna put myself in too many situations where I detect an unreasonable risk of infection.

And I'm gonna trust my fellow citizens to not cough on me while they are sick.

And when I touch stuff, I'm gonna wash my hands.

Hope that's OK with everybody.

Good luck with the "I'm gonna trust my fellow citizens to not cough on me while they are sick" part... :confused:;)

Enjoyed your posts...

Here's hoping you make it through to a vaccination...

(Explaination): I really Do enjoy your posts and I really Do hope you survive this...

I really Don't trust my fellow citizens not to cough on you (or me)...

Just from what I've seen, some of them just don't care about anyone but themselves...; many of them just have incredibly poor manners and/or simply can't grasp the concept that's there's a good chance they're a threat to you...; and then there's always that small percentage who'd actually cough on someone on purpose for whatever warped reason might float thru their reptilian brain...
 
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I see a lot of words with no facts to back them up.

Your argument is "Orange man bad".
In fairness, I will admit to some anti-orange bias. I've known three people in my adult life who were actually orange - a former AD at my school, a former Indiana University basketball coach, and the current occupant of the White House. All three were/are insecure, inept, narcissistic, and thin-skinned to the point of paranoia. Two of the three were deeply corrupt ( not sure about the basketball coach so I won't speculate). All three surrounded themselves with enablers who lacked the knowledge or the nerve to correct them.

Ultimately two of the three were fired for gross incompetence after doing untold damage to the institutions they were tasked to lead. Here's hoping the third faces the same fate this November.

So yes, I do admit to some degree of prejudice. I hope it's not just stereotyping but I have a feeling that anyone who lacks the necessary self-awareness to not allow himself to be orange shouldn't be trusted to lead any organization. I have the same lack of regard for people who are so desperate to hide the fact that their hair is thinning that they part it at the top of one ear and swirl it on top by placing their heads in a cotton candy machine. And If your ego is so fragile that you will resort to BOTH being orange AND confection-device hair styling, you should really just hang a sign around your neck that says "I am a tool".
 
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Good luck with the "I'm gonna trust my fellow citizens to not cough on me while they are sick" part... :confused:;)

Enjoyed your posts...

Here's hoping you make it through to a vaccination...

(Explaination): I really Do enjoy your posts and I really Do hope you survive this...

I really Don't trust my fellow citizens not to cough on you (or me)...

Just from what I've seen, some of them just don't care about anyone but themselves...; many of them just have incredibly poor manners and/or simply can't grasp the concept that's there's a good chance they're a threat to you...; and then there's always that small percentage who'd actually cough on someone on purpose for whatever warped reason might float thru their reptilian brain...

To paraphrase Teddy, perhaps I should wear a mask and carry a big stick.
 
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The # of deaths are being exploited by hospitals because they are paid thousands of dollars by the feds. My wife talked to a Mennonite woman, she knows, [her group is her sect is isolated from the public and she said one died at home from cancer and two from an automobile accident. When they got the death certificate they were reported to have COV19 despite their isolation. Don't take the #s about COV19 with any salt because they are not accurate about deaths in this country.
My wife is a Medical Record Administrator and doesn't trust the statistics because hospitals and healthcare facilities are encouraged to list COVID-19 as the cause of death whenever possible. Medicare and Medicaid are reimbursing these facilities at a higher rate than if it is cancer or pneumonia. In fact Pneumonia deaths are down this year. COVID-19 has replaced the cause of death even in cases where the virus was not confirmed.

Someone with end stage cancer can be coded as COVID-19 without proof they had it. It is a stimulus for healthcare providers and a gift from Medicare/Medicaid. It is helping our struggling hospitals that couldn't provide elective or non emergency treatments. I'm not totally against it but I do believe it is inflating the real death rate.
 
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My wife is a Medical Record Administrator and doesn't trust the statistics because hospitals and healthcare facilities are encouraged to list COVID-19 as the cause of death whenever possible. Medicare and Medicaid are reimbursing these facilities at a higher rate than if it is cancer or pneumonia. In fact Pneumonia deaths are down this year. COVID-19 has replaced the cause of death even in cases where the virus was not confirmed.

Someone with end stage cancer can be coded as COVID-19 without proof they had it. It is a stimulus for healthcare providers and a gift from Medicare/Medicaid. It is helping our struggling hospitals that couldn't provide elective or non emergency treatments. I'm not totally against it but I do believe it is inflating the real death rate.
Your wife needs to be advised that this is an internet rumor created on right-wing conspiracy sites. There isn't a shred of truth to it. If the data isn't entirely accurate - and it very likely isn't - it isn't because of this bogus nonsense. Government-funded health insurance programs don't reimburse based on reason for death, or for death at all. They reimburse based on cost of services submitted by doctors and facilities.
 
"I don't see or hear many references to that anymore."

Really? And why do you think that is?

Maybe it's because of the abuse heaped on Christians today? Maybe it's the insistence of religion having no place in the government,

Why would you expect the United States to follow Christian principles when it's the position of one political party to ignore its precepts?
Love thy neighbor as thyself. Words to live by, irrespective of party affiliation.
 
Your wife needs to be advised that this is an internet rumor created on right-wing conspiracy sites. There isn't a shred of truth to it. If the data isn't entirely accurate - and it very likely isn't - it isn't because of this bogus nonsense. Government-funded health insurance programs don't reimburse based on reason for death, or for death at all. They reimburse based on cost of services submitted by doctors and facilities.
It isn't a rumor. She gets new Federal regs and guidance every day concerning how COVID-19 is being reimbursed. Payment is based on the ICD-10-CM code assigned to each primary. diagnosis. Reimbursement depends on the costs associated with the diagnosis. COVID-19 requires a higher level of care/costs and are reimbursed with higher limits. Someone with a positive test or suspected of having the virus can qualify for increased reimbursement. The patient can be asymptomatic and still have the cause of death or treatment coded with COVID-19 as an associated diagnosis.

This has nothing to do with right wing or left wing politics.
 
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It isn't a rumor. She gets new Federal regs and guidance every day concerning how COVID-19 is being reimbursed. Payment is based on the ICD-10-CM code assigned to each primary. diagnosis. Reimbursement depends on the costs associated with the diagnosis. COVID-19 requires a higher level of care/costs and are reimbursed with higher limits. Someone with a positive test or suspected of having the virus can qualify for increased reimbursement. The patient can be asymptomatic and still have the cause of death or treatment coded with COVID-19 as an associated diagnosis.

This has nothing to do with right wing or left wing politics.
Exactly. So the patient has to be diagnosed, at least initially, in order to receive the treatment. So the increased reimbursement is indeed related to the cost of treatment. It's deceptive to say that people are deliberately falsifying a diagnosis to receive additional payment. And being asymptomatic doesn't mean the infection isn't present, and didn't contribute to the death. As I said, the reimbursement is related to the cost of treatment - not the cause of death.
 
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It isn't a rumor. She gets new Federal regs and guidance every day concerning how COVID-19 is being reimbursed. Payment is based on the ICD-10-CM code assigned to each primary. diagnosis. Reimbursement depends on the costs associated with the diagnosis. COVID-19 requires a higher level of care/costs and are reimbursed with higher limits. Someone with a positive test or suspected of having the virus can qualify for increased reimbursement. The patient can be asymptomatic and still have the cause of death or treatment coded with COVID-19 as an associated diagnosis.

This has nothing to do with right wing or left wing politics.

Exactly. So the patient has to be diagnosed, at least initially, in order to receive the treatment. So the increased reimbursement is indeed related to the cost of treatment. It's deceptive to say that people are deliberately falsifying a diagnosis to receive additional payment. And being asymptomatic doesn't mean the infection isn't present, and didn't contribute to the death. As I said, the reimbursement is related to the cost of treatment - not the cause of death.

I remember when “coding” didn’t exist. Now it’s a whole industry and often dictates the whole doctor-patient interaction.

One of the richest people I ever met made his bucks helping folks code “more accurately”

Last seen at his Kennebunkport estate eating fish eggs

Never made a house call either.
 
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