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My Only Semi-Pro-Pelosi Thread

I doubt Pelosi or Newt did that either. But your premise--that to figure out what the Taiwanese want means you would look at the aborigines of Taiwan is just silly.

I also typically don't buy arguments about "historical rights" or who conquered what hundreds or thousands of years ago. (Those arguments sound a lot like Putin defending his invasion of Ukraine, don't they? Hitler's invasion of Sudentenland? I don't think that's a coincidence.) In my opinion, a person alive today does not have a right to conquer another person because he can find a first-in-time ancestor that lived there. I reject that justification wholesale.

There are 24 million people living on that island who don't want to live under Chinese rule. I know a few, who lived here and were friends and then they moved back. They are happy anytime the US supports Taiwan. If the Taiwanese don't want to poke China with this visit, Pelosi should honor that.

Note, I don't think that if they want her to visit, that means she should necessarily go. The U.S. should analyze this based on the host of other strategic factors you mention, as well. But I hope one of the factors we always consider is the U.S. interest in promoting the freedom of the 24 million Taiwanese people.

Sure, ignoring the rightful owner of any lands of any aborigines works for your narrative. Maybe not so for the Aborigines. Don't they see it as conquering colonials -- whether in Australia, USA to Taiwan? It's silly from your perspective since its been hundreds of years ago and the conquerors basically decimated the native populations with the justification that they brought economic development to the lands. That's exactly what the Afrikaners said about owning South Africa and the enslavement of the native blacks.

Like I said earlier, time seems to be the solution to washing off the sins of the past -- and not restitution or acknowledgement -- like some self-imposed statute of limitation.

But I digress.

The Chinese have been on the island of Taiwan since the 1300s. Not this 'rebel' government but under the rule of the prevailing governments of Beijing.
Beijing did not invade HK and Macau to get back what they perceive to be their lands. So I don't see them invading Taiwan either.
As far as they see it, it's a domestic situation. So why provoke the situation?

What does the US Congress/Gov't gain by visiting?

Some symbol of freedom? Give me a break -- it lost the moral high ground when they left the women and children in Afghanistan to be abused again under the Taliban a year ago. (That's a HUGE black stain in my books.)

And so you seriously think the US is willing to lose American blood in the protection or in a more politically palatable/jingoistic term: the fight for the freedom of the Taiwanese people? :rolleyes:

There is zero chance of that happening especially after walking out on the women & children of Afghanistan.

So why provide false promises and hopes and fool the Taiwanese government into emboldening of their stance?

There are zero purposes for the visit other than for one's own political expediency.



Btw. the different Taiwanese governments have varying stances toward China too. Some are more pro-unification than others.
 
Some symbol of freedom? Give me a break -- it lost the moral high ground when they left the women and children in Afghanistan to be abused again under the Taliban a year ago. (That's a HUGE black stain in my books.)

Let's talk black stains....**** out of here.
 
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Let's talk black stains....**** out of here.

And the typical kneejerk reaction of the masses.... whataboutism.
If so, I can throw in the hundreds of years of slavery, the genocide of the native Americans, crow law etc.
 
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Sure, ignoring the rightful owner of any lands of any aborigines works for your narrative. Maybe not so for the Aborigines. Don't they see it as conquering colonials -- whether in Australia, USA to Taiwan? It's silly from your perspective since its been hundreds of years ago and the conquerors basically decimated the native populations with the justification that they brought economic development to the lands. That's exactly what the Afrikaners said about owning South Africa and the enslavement of the native blacks.

Like I said earlier, time seems to be the solution to washing off the sins of the past -- and not restitution or acknowledgement -- like some self-imposed statute of limitation.

But I digress.

The Chinese have been on the island of Taiwan since the 1300s. Not this 'rebel' government but under the rule of the prevailing governments of Beijing.
Beijing did not invade HK and Macau to get back what they perceive to be their lands. So I don't see them invading Taiwan either.
As far as they see it, it's a domestic situation. So why provoke the situation?

What does the US Congress/Gov't gain by visiting?

Some symbol of freedom? Give me a break -- it lost the moral high ground when they left the women and children in Afghanistan to be abused again under the Taliban a year ago. (That's a HUGE black stain in my books.)

And so you seriously think the US is willing to lose American blood in the protection or in a more politically palatable/jingoistic term: the fight for the freedom of the Taiwanese people? :rolleyes:

There is zero chance of that happening especially after walking out on the women & children of Afghanistan.

So why provide false promises and hopes and fool the Taiwanese government into emboldening of their stance?

There are zero purposes for the visit other than for one's own political expediency.



Btw. the different Taiwanese governments have varying stances toward China too. Some are more pro-unification than others.
You misspelled “democracy”

No. Wait. Thats wrong. You didn't mention it.

Screw the Chi-Coms.

How long ago was The Cultural Revolution and Starvation Party?
 
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Look I get it. My granddad gave millions of dollars in support of ROC... money which in today's terms would allow me a decent life.
I couldn't live under the rule of Beijing either -- I have been there enough times in my life. The fear of the security apparatus etc. The reality is that that fear ain't that bad unless you start to poke into the realms of politics.

My point is that everyone seems to think there are bad guys and good guys in geo-politics. There isn't.
Everyone in every country has been socialised or brainwashed into thinking they represent the 'good guys'.
Otherwise, there is no way any soldier will take up arms to fight for their cause of 'rightful owners' .....or even something as nebulous or to a cynic, bullshitty like 'freedom' and 'liberty'.

If you are simplistic and feel the need to think you are the good guy in these situations then so be it. But then remember that you are only fooling yourself because the other side also thinks they are the just and the good guys in that same situation.
No one is brought up to their they are evil or the bad guys in life, with very few exceptions who are basically psychos.

So how do you work in a situation where both sides feel justified and see themselves as the good guys?
Then you add in the fact that the only thing that really unites the country is having some foreign adversary.

Then you understand where we are at.
 
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You misspelled “democracy”

No. Wait. Thats wrong. You didn't mention it.

Screw the Chi-Coms.

How long ago was The Cultural Revolution and Starvation Party?

Ok. Now that you aren't using the statute of limitation or time anymore, we can start to drag up the hundreds of years of the genocide of the native Americans or even SLAVERY?

Was Jan 6th an attempt to restore a suppressed democracy or an attempt to overthrow an legitimately elected government?

Hows is that for the moral high ground?

Why look abroad for abuses when you can look domestic?

The ol' stones, glasshouse malarkey.
 
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If Taiwan one day votes to join Communist China, so be it. That is their right. It's not China's to conquer them and force 24 million people to live under their rule.

Do you honestly believe China would be justified in invading Taiwan, conquering it, and subjecting those 24 million people to their rule?

I see your point but that is "western think". non-democracies think democracy is just an instrument to control the masses and colonize the world. the US has done a lot of conquering itself, much of it recently, and none of it on our own backyard. it seems like our actions also play right into their fears about us.
 
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Ok. Now that you aren't using the statute of limitation or time anymore, we can start to drag up the hundreds of years of the genocide of the native Americans or even SLAVERY?

Hows is that for the moral high ground?

Why look abroad for abuses when you can look domestic?

The ol' stones, glasshouse malarkey.

I'm thinking this belongs here and not in the movie thread. lol

 
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I see your point but that is "western think". non-democracies think democracy is just an instrument to control the masses and colonize the world. the US has done a lot of conquering itself, much of it recently, and none of it on our own backyard. it seems like our actions also play right into their fears about us.

The problem is everyone thinks they are the 'good guy' due to the recency effects.
Everyone seems to whitewash their past and then go ahead pretending they have high moral grounds.
Who's fooling who? It's good for the military-industrial complex on all sides for sure.
 
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Sure, ignoring the rightful owner of any lands of any aborigines works for your narrative. Maybe not so for the Aborigines. Don't they see it as conquering colonials -- whether in Australia, USA to Taiwan? It's silly from your perspective since its been hundreds of years ago and the conquerors basically decimated the native populations with the justification that they brought economic development to the lands. That's exactly what the Afrikaners said about owning South Africa and the enslavement of the native blacks.

Like I said earlier, time seems to be the solution to washing off the sins of the past -- and not restitution or acknowledgement -- like some self-imposed statute of limitation.

But I digress.

The Chinese have been on the island of Taiwan since the 1300s. Not this 'rebel' government but under the rule of the prevailing governments of Beijing.
Beijing did not invade HK and Macau to get back what they perceive to be their lands. So I don't see them invading Taiwan either.
As far as they see it, it's a domestic situation. So why provoke the situation?

What does the US Congress/Gov't gain by visiting?

Some symbol of freedom? Give me a break -- it lost the moral high ground when they left the women and children in Afghanistan to be abused again under the Taliban a year ago. (That's a HUGE black stain in my books.)

And so you seriously think the US is willing to lose American blood in the protection or in a more politically palatable/jingoistic term: the fight for the freedom of the Taiwanese people? :rolleyes:

There is zero chance of that happening especially after walking out on the women & children of Afghanistan.

So why provide false promises and hopes and fool the Taiwanese government into emboldening of their stance?

There are zero purposes for the visit other than for one's own political expediency.



Btw. the different Taiwanese governments have varying stances toward China too. Some are more pro-unification than others.
1. From my quick research, the Taiwanese apparently claim that they were self-ruled (NOT ruled by China) until the 1600s, and then the island was given by China to Japan in 1895. So the implication that the Chinese have an ancient claim to Taiwan dating to the 1300s is false. Yes, you elided that implication by stating Chinese "have been on the island" but, of course, whether Chinese "have been on the island" is absolutely irrelevant.


2. You assume aboriginal's are the "rightful owners" of any piece of land. I reject that. I'm betting the Chinese government agrees with me and not you. A lot of Uyghers might back up this claim:


3. Given the treatment of the Uyghers (see link above), if we accept your premise and poll only Tawainese aboriginals on the question: Do you want the Chinese Communist Party to rule over you or do you prefer your present arrangement with the Tawainese government? How does that come out?

4. You are being inconsistent with your complaint that "time washes away the sins of the past." On the one hand you claim that CHINA has a rightful claim to Taiwan because they conquered it 400 years ago; yet that the current Tawainese (who treat the aborigines much better, I'm willing to bet, than the conquerors in the 1600s--not the 1300s) do not. Unless you are claiming that the Chinese want to use military force to take over the island to restore its rightful owners, the aboriginals? Obviously, you don't believe that. (I'd insert a cute emoji here but don't know how).

And OF COURSE time wipes away the sins of the past. Do you honestly think someone who traces his lineage back to an ancient Egyptian Pharoah owes an apology or money or land to someone who traces his lineage back to an enslaved Egyptian? Our quibble, if we were to have one, is on how close in time, not your wrongly asserted, too-broad statements.

But on this fundamental point, we will disagree. I am firmly within the Western tradition--I think morality (and merit) is to be applied to individuals, not groups, and certainly not cross-generational "peoples." (I admit there is a continuum of reasonableness for using the morality metaphor towards groups, based on how big they are, what they do, and the temporal link between them). Logically, I think applying those terms to groups is a category error. Pragmatically, I think that kind of thinking leads to all kinds of bad results--like racism, genocide, discrimination, etc. "Narratively," I think it is used as a tribal mechanism to suggest supernatural links between people who might be related or look alike, and I reject all forms of mysticism.

So If you are not going to argue within that tradition and with that assumption and instead refer to some mystical "spirit of a people" or "the way Chinese are" or the "the way colonozers are," etc. and their collective guilt that is passed down to us in the present, we can't really advance very far in persuading each other on that point.

5. I don't care about which nation has "the moral high ground." I grant that the U.S. government's concern with Taiwan is based on national self-interest, as defined by the ruling class and that that interest is based in economics, not the human flourishing of the Taiwanese.

But I care about the actions that might advance the collective good of the people involved. And in that calculus, I care much less about stock market returns than I do the lives of 24 million people living on the island of Taiwan. Does Pelosi care about those lives? I don't know (I would hope she does). Her motivations do not affect MY calculus as to whether the action helps or hurts the Taiwanese. (By the way, the politicians know this which explains why they use the rhetoric they do--indeed that is one of the fundamental skills of a politician of any age or culture--translating national interest goals into personal moral goals/language of the society).

Please note: I've addressed your arguments; I have not attacked you as a person. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
 
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Look I get it. My granddad gave millions of dollars in support of ROC... money which in today's terms would allow me a decent life.
I couldn't live under the rule of Beijing either -- I have been there enough times in my life. The fear of the security apparatus etc. The reality is that that fear ain't that bad unless you start to poke into the realms of politics.

My point is that everyone seems to think there are bad guys and good guys in geo-politics. There isn't.
Everyone in every country has been socialised or brainwashed into thinking they represent the 'good guys'.
Otherwise, there is no way any soldier will take up arms to fight for their cause of 'rightful owners' .....or even something as nebulous or to a cynic, bullshitty like 'freedom' and 'liberty'.

If you are simplistic and feel the need to think you are the good guy in these situations then so be it. But then remember that you are only fooling yourself because the other side also thinks they are the just and the good guys in that same situation.
No one is brought up to their they are evil or the bad guys in life, with very few exceptions who are basically psychos.

So how do you work in a situation where both sides feel justified and see themselves as the good guys?
Then you add in the fact that the only thing that really unites the country is having some foreign adversary.

Then you understand where we are at.
1. One can admit that the U.S. is acting in its own national self-interest, but still judge that action as one that benefits the people of Taiwan--again, let's ask them.

2. We are going to have to admit that using the metaphor of "good guys' and "bad guys" in geo politics can be applied in at least some situations--see WW II. Germany and Japan in that war acted in fundamentally different ways than Britain and the U.S. I don't think that is reasonably disputable. Given all your arguments, wouldn't they

3. So are you now admitting that you don't believe aborigines are "rightful owners" of land?

4. As to your question, how do we work in a situation--your above analysis and moral judgments are focused on the US and China. Again, I refer back to the lives, wishes, and desires of the 24 million people living on Taiwan. Ask them what they want.

Finally, you have not responded to my earlier question: do you believe China would be justified in using military force to conquer Taiwan?
 
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The problem is everyone thinks they are the 'good guy' due to the recency effects.
Everyone seems to whitewash their past and then go ahead pretending they have high moral grounds.
Who's fooling who? It's good for the military-industrial complex on all sides for sure.
Not really. The U.S. is the good guy, the CCP is the bad guy. There are basic moral precepts that the CCP tramples all over Willy nilly, the U.S. just doesn’t do that. Like Brad pointed out, the confederacy and the nazi Germany both had a lot of people who earnestly believed their cause was just, their belief doesn’t make it so.

I know you fancy yourself cultured and all because you live half way across the world but the fact is the moral equivalence you’re attempting to draw is completely bunk. In your effort to appear worldly you just come off as clueless and naïve.
 
Not really. The U.S. is the good guy, the CCP is the bad guy. There are basic moral precepts that the CCP tramples all over Willy nilly, the U.S. just doesn’t do that. Like Brad pointed out, the confederacy and the nazi Germany both had a lot of people who earnestly believed their cause was just, their belief doesn’t make it so.

I know you fancy yourself cultured and all because you live half way across the world but the fact is the moral equivalence you’re attempting to draw is completely bunk. In your effort to appear worldly you just come off as clueless and naïve.

please, tell us about those moral precepts. Lol.

the developed world doesn’t have to “do” anymore because it already did what China is trying to do. Decimated and subjugated native populations at home and abroad for peace, land and labor. polluted the f out of everything during industrialization. Colonize underdeveloped parts of the world that are rich in resources by force and unfair agreements (China hasn’t started using force abroad yet so they got that going for them…). Then after you’ve bullied, murdered and poisoned your way to the top, create international organizations to stop developing nations from doing what you did. Say that you’ve become enlightened, but feel free to keep toppling nations you don’t like and starting shit on the borders of non-democratic superpowers. All good.

I’m oversimplifying, sure, but not sure how we expect China, India, Russia et al. to not use similar playbooks to try to get where we are.
 
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please, tell us about those moral precepts. Lol.

the developed world doesn’t have to “do” anymore because it already did what China is trying to do. Decimated and subjugated native populations at home and abroad for peace, land and labor. polluted the f out of everything during industrialization. Colonize underdeveloped parts of the world that are rich in resources by force and unfair agreements (China hasn’t started using force abroad yet so they got that going for them…). Then after you’ve bullied, murdered and poisoned your way to the top, create international organizations to stop developing nations from doing what you did. Say that you’ve become enlightened, but feel free to keep toppling nations you don’t like and starting shit on the borders of non-democratic superpowers. All good.

I’m oversimplifying, sure, but not sure how we expect China, India, Russia et al. to not use similar playbooks to try to get where we are.
Since Sglowrider won't answer the questions, I'll ask you:

Do you believe China would be justified in using military force to conquer Taiwan?

No matter the motives of those in power in the U.S., would you agree that Taiwan's current government is preferred by the Taiwanese to a CCP takeover?
 
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please, tell us about those moral precepts. Lol.

the developed world doesn’t have to “do” anymore because it already did what China is trying to do. Decimated and subjugated native populations at home and abroad for peace, land and labor. polluted the f out of everything during industrialization. Colonize underdeveloped parts of the world that are rich in resources by force and unfair agreements (China hasn’t started using force abroad yet so they got that going for them…). Then after you’ve bullied, murdered and poisoned your way to the top, create international organizations to stop developing nations from doing what you did. Say that you’ve become enlightened, but feel free to keep toppling nations you don’t like and starting shit on the borders of non-democratic superpowers. All good.

I’m oversimplifying, sure, but not sure how we expect China, India, Russia et al. to not use similar playbooks to try to get where we are.
Regarding your narrative, I'm not sure if that makes sense. It's easy storytelling to anthropomorphize "China" and "USA" as single entities across all generations as a single person and a story, without historical context and then apply modern moral judgments to them, but I'm always wary of that way of storytelling.

I think you and sglowrider both probably agree with that, and are just spinning these arguments to show how inconsistency develops when those in the USA use that way of storytelling. I'd agree with you there.

But I think both of you are falling into the trap of judging nation-states' (and people's) past actions using today's norms. Again, it's easier to analyze things ashistorically, but that doesn't make it helpful. I think Howard Zinn does this a lot in his history (along with oversimplifying every era as one that can be analyzed as oppressors v. oppressed).

None of this, by the way, bears on the issue paramount in this thread, though: I think you should look at particular actions or policies at particular historical times and judge those actions based on the norms that existed at that time. So it is entirely possible to look at Nazi Germany and say they were immoral, the easiest example. You can do the same with domestic policy in Cambodia with the Khmer Rouge. Or slavery in the U.S.(given our own norms and ideals spelled out in the Declaration of Independence). Or China's present treatment of the Uyghurs (if it is true, as reported, that China is engaging in forced detention, labor, sterilization, etc. of that people). Or--as being argued here--the hypothetical military conquering of Taiwan by China.
 
please, tell us about those moral precepts. Lol.

the developed world doesn’t have to “do” anymore because it already did what China is trying to do. Decimated and subjugated native populations at home and abroad for peace, land and labor. polluted the f out of everything during industrialization. Colonize underdeveloped parts of the world that are rich in resources by force and unfair agreements (China hasn’t started using force abroad yet so they got that going for them…). Then after you’ve bullied, murdered and poisoned your way to the top, create international organizations to stop developing nations from doing what you did. Say that you’ve become enlightened, but feel free to keep toppling nations you don’t like and starting shit on the borders of non-democratic superpowers. All good.

I’m oversimplifying, sure, but not sure how we expect China, India, Russia et al. to not use similar playbooks to try to get where we are.
Good to see some things never change.
 
please, tell us about those moral precepts. Lol.

the developed world doesn’t have to “do” anymore because it already did what China is trying to do. Decimated and subjugated native populations at home and abroad for peace, land and labor. polluted the f out of everything during industrialization. Colonize underdeveloped parts of the world that are rich in resources by force and unfair agreements (China hasn’t started using force abroad yet so they got that going for them…). Then after you’ve bullied, murdered and poisoned your way to the top, create international organizations to stop developing nations from doing what you did. Say that you’ve become enlightened, but feel free to keep toppling nations you don’t like and starting shit on the borders of non-democratic superpowers. All good.

I’m oversimplifying, sure, but not sure how we expect China, India, Russia et al. to not use similar playbooks to try to get where we are.
Did they also save other countries in two world wars? Wow , you have a really tainted view of the world, you do realize unless you are in prison no one is forcing you to live here right?
 
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Anerica is the only bad nation … because the social justice warriors aren't rich.
While I think there is truth in this psychological analysis of the SJWs (I'm sure people will complain THAT term can't be used either), I don't think that is what bub-rub or even sglowrider were driving at.

Instead, I think at least bub-rub would admit China does things that he would prefer they not do but is pointing out the history of the USA is also full of actions by governments that we, today, would not approve of if our government did it. I think you agree with that, too.
 
While I think there is truth in this psychological analysis of the SJWs (I'm sure people will complain THAT term can't be used either), I don't think that is what bub-rub or even sglowrider were driving at.

Instead, I think at least bub-rub would admit China does things that he would prefer they not do but is pointing out the history of the USA is also full of actions by governments that we, today, would not approve of if our government did it. I think you agree with that, too.
Both of them are just using past actions on the part of the U.S. (some of which were pretty common for their time) to justify actions taken in the current day by a country like China.

"Well you fought against indigenous people and took their land in the 18th and 19th centuries (like people have done for millenia prior) so that means we can subjugate who we want now."

The Soviets did this same whataboutism during the Cold War. The Chinese communists are their cousins and you see the same thing here.
 
Since Sglowrider won't answer the questions, I'll ask you:

Do you believe China would be justified in using military force to conquer Taiwan?

No matter the motives of those in power in the U.S., would you agree that Taiwan's current government is preferred by the Taiwanese to a CCP takeover?

I’d say No*** and a big Yes

a few folks are misunderstanding my point. I’d pick living in a big developed democratic republic superpower every day of the week. I like owning property and mostly being able to say what I want. Living in a country w hostile neighbors seems like it would suck.

I guess I’m just trying to appreciate that most non-western countries exist in much different environments. They operate in much more hostile geopolitical regions w some insurmountable geographic obstacles.

I’ve been thinking on your point about “recency” and I think it’s a good one. I see the importance of judging the world as we see it now, as we currently understand it to be and acting w current norms in mind. But I also think that’s a bit easier to do if your civilization is currently leading the race and helped set the norms. The CCP is more than happy to stoke nationalist flames w reminders of what Japan and the west did to China but propaganda aside, China really did spend much of the last 100 years as a poor, middling power in large part because of what Japan and the west did to them. But you can also look at it this way: Japan currently hosts a US navy fleet, 30kish US troops are still in korea, and we sell billions of dollars of arms to Taiwan. History be damned, these are current events for china.

so I guess I’m hedging. Lol. As an American w stocks and property to think about, steady as she goes. As someone who believes in liberty and fair play, invading sovereign nations except as self-defense is bullshit and the international community should act against it.

But as a cynical geopolitics nerd, you do you, China. It’s a zero-sum game. It’s the African savannah. The only law is that the lions snap spines.
 
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Did they also save other countries in two world wars? Wow , you have a really tainted view of the world, you do realize unless you are in prison no one is forcing you to live here right?

don’t get me wrong, the good guys came through in both of those situations. America did what only america can do, and that’s true to this day. Owning a continent not named Australia is magical stuff. Lol. I also like that some of our ideals are worth spreading.

but also keep in mind the US didn’t go all in either time until it looked liked Germany would take all of Europe. It took a lot of coaxing by US and European politicians (and Pearl Harbor) to get us to mobilize. Our most electable president ever had trouble selling US citizens on the idea. And make no mistake, what the US really feared then and still fears now is another country dominating a continent. That’s the only kind of power that can touch america at home or rival the US globally. I believe there was a moral duty element to it but nothing gets off the ground unless US interests were at stake.
 
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