China can bite it. Any American office holder can travel to Taiwan anytime they want.
Stop acting like North Korea.
Stop acting like North Korea.
My Only Semi-Pro-Pelosi Thread
- Thread starter MyTeamIsOnTheFloor
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What's the objective? To add more fuel to a potentially inflammatory situation? Add more instability to a potentially global recession?
If so, well done. She was adviced by leaders in the region not to go. And yet.. ignoring the advice of the leaders of friendly nations. Not good.
It's the case of cuting off your nose to spite your face especially in an interconnected global economy.
Easy for folks who live thousands of miles away to play politics in someone else's backyard. Different if it's right at your doorstep.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot?
It's just infantile. Or someone bought and short stock in Taiwan and China?
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For any economic recovery, we need as stable a global platform as possible. So what's her objective?
She flies to SE Asia to touch base with the respective leaders and to listen to them.
The PM of Singapore very clearly said that it wasn't a good idea to go, provoke and increase any further regional tension and instability -- on top of the Ukraine/Russia war.
She doesn't expect some sort of response?
So what's the objective I ask again. Do people like global recessions and inflation? China is the 2nd largest economy in the world. Not some 2nd rate economy like Russia.
People are thinking with their swinging dicks and not their brains.
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I don’t disagree that it’s a provocative action for no particular reason I can see.
I’m just trying to see if Incan find any logic in it.
And I 100% agree. China and the world are in an economic suicide pact.
So the US just falls into line any time China objects to something?
It's Pelosi, please do us a favor! Why would we go to war for losing her ?
now if she steps off the plane and flashes her headlights.... then they should be offended. o/w China can GFI
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
You said in your previous post that it's easy for the US when it's not our region. Fair criticism.
But does Taiwan want her there? If so, doesn't a similar argument apply to Singapore? Singapore doesn't have to fear a Chinese invasion; Taiwan does.
I think we should dump several shiploads of stone onto an ocean low spot somewhere near China, set up an airbase and shipyard on our newly created sovereign soil and claim a 200-mile security, mining and fishing zone.
It is logically impossible for Pelosi to provoke China to aggressively grab territory, because China already decided on its own years ago to aggressively grab territory:
How and Why China is Building New Territory
The completion of another island and risk of militarization is a cause for U.S. concern.
www.newsweek.com
I don't know what the best strategy would be against the Asian Bully, but history had proven that standing by and appeasing a bully doesn't work.
Taiwan is a complex situation as we all know. Not some problem with binary solutions.
The Chinese have inhabited the island of Taiwan since the 1300s. But it has been colonised by the Dutch to the Japanese since and now the 'rebel' government.
Taiwan and the Chinese province opposite the Straits of Taiwan, Fujian province even speak the same language as Taiwan. It's the language of my ancestors and one I learnt from my grandmother.
The original population of Taiwan, the aborigines of Taiwan are different folks, people whose language I have no comprehension of. Not one word. The aborigines have been on the island for maybe 5000yrs.
So it's not just politics that there are two Chinas in this case. There are historical rights -- and clearly a more solid case than to the families of the previous Hawaiian kings now wanting to claim back Hawaii as their own lands.
But like most aborigines around the world, they tend to be outside looking in on their own lands now. If anyone, it would be them who have any rightful claims to Taiwan.
But I doubt if Pelosi or Newt made any effort to understand both the cultural and historical background of Taiwan before embarking on their dumbass trips.
It is logically impossible for Pelosi to provoke China to aggressively grab territory, because China already decided on its own years ago to aggressively grab territory:
How and Why China is Building New Territory
The completion of another island and risk of militarization is a cause for U.S. concern.
I don't know what the best strategy would be against the Asian Bully, but history had proven that standing by and appeasing a bully doesn't work.
Ok, let's play devil's advocate here or at least not start waving any flags or chest-beating ceremony:
Look at the US bases in Asia and look at their locations -- both in terms of securing the US and then how it surrounds China. A map here would help you visualise this.
Their purpose (the bases) is to ensure that both military and economically it plays a strategic role in protecting the interest of the US right?
From Hawaii to Guam; from Japan, Korea to the Philippines to Singapore to Diego Garcia and the UAE.
Fair play or fair dinkum as they say in Oz. It's the largest economy in the world, it needs to ensure that oil supplies need flow and it needs to make sure there are early detection or trip wires in place.
All for both the US interests and help some global stability ... as a non-nuclear version of MADD.
Now let's look at China, which is now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Look at where it gets its oils and look at the military bases (with similar purposes to the US) that protect its interest and the supply chain for its raw materials to keep its economy going.
See the difference? It's night & day the difference. One island in the Spratleys versus
At this stage of the game, China is a paper tiger of military power that's completely vulnerable to US pressures in terms of blockages to its raw materials.
There is historical precedence here -- the US's economic blockages on Japan prior to the start of WW2 and then tripped their invasion of SE Asia later for raw materials like rubber, oil etc and the attack on Pearl.
This is why the sentiments towards the US has started to shift in Asia especially amongst the younger generation in the last 5 years. They see the US increasingly as being the bully both militarily and economically in the region.
The US soft power in the region is waning. It's starting to feel less relevant in their daily lives. Korean, and Chinese pop culture or even religious fundamentalist sentiments are starting to get more of a foot in the door now.
So if China feels that the US is an increasing threat, it will only force Beijing to increase its military spending and need to replicate the US global strategy of protecting its supply chain via military bases.
And this is only the beginning -- India will be the 3rd largest economic power in the world by 2030.
They will need to do the same thing as China -- protect its supply chains and the military support system to support their needs.
So now you have the 3 largest economies in the world in Asia/Pacific in less than 10 years' time.
Do you think any POTUS will put boots on the ground for Taiwan now? Is Taiwan really worth it when there are much bigger fish to fry?
This is why it's dumb for the US to provoke further any tensions in the region.
We should all be focusing on ensuring or creating conditions for some economic recovery post-pandemic -- rather than for one's personal political or financial gains.
In your view, how did pulling out of the TPP effect the overall situation in regards to US-China relations, both economically and geopolitically, as well as the Pacific Rim as a whole?Ok, let's play devil's advocate here or at least not start waving any flags or chest-beating ceremony:
Look at the US bases in Asia and look at their locations -- both in terms of securing the US and then how it surrounds China. A map here would help you visualise this.
Their purpose (the bases) is to ensure that both military and economically it plays a strategic role in protecting the interest of the US right?
From Hawaii to Guam; from Japan, Korea to the Philippines to Singapore to Diego Garcia and the UAE.
Fair play or fair dinkum as they say in Oz. It's the largest economy in the world, it needs to ensure that oil supplies need flow and it needs to make sure there are early detection or trip wires in place.
All for both the US interests and help some global stability ... as a non-nuclear version of MADD.
Now let's look at China, which is now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Look at where it gets its oils and look at the military bases (with similar purposes to the US) that protect its interest and the supply chain for its raw materials to keep its economy going.
See the difference? It's night & day the difference. One island in the Spratleys versus
At this stage of the game, China is a paper tiger of military power that's completely vulnerable to US pressures in terms of blockages to its raw materials.
There is historical precedence here -- the US's economic blockages on Japan prior to the start of WW2 and then tripped their invasion of SE Asia later for raw materials like rubber, oil etc and the attack on Pearl.
This is why the sentiments towards the US has started to shift in Asia especially amongst the younger generation in the last 5 years. They see the US increasingly as being the bully both militarily and economically in the region.
The US soft power in the region is waning. It's starting to feel less relevant in their daily lives. Korean, and Chinese pop culture or even religious fundamentalist sentiments are starting to get more of a foot in the door now.
So if China feels that the US is an increasing threat, it will only force Beijing to increase its military spending and need to replicate the US global strategy of protecting its supply chain via military bases.
And this is only the beginning -- India will be the 3rd largest economic power in the world by 2030.
They will need to do the same thing as China -- protect its supply chains and the military support system to support their needs.
So now you have the 3 largest economies in the world in Asia/Pacific in less than 10 years' time.
Do you think any POTUS will put boots on the ground for Taiwan now? Is Taiwan really worth it when there are much bigger fish to fry?
This is why it's dumb for the US to provoke further any tensions in the region.
We should all be focusing on ensuring or creating conditions for some economic recovery post-pandemic -- rather than for one's personal political or financial gains.
I reject your premise that a politician visiting a country is a provocation to war. China is a thin skinned bully. They can get bent.Ok, let's play devil's advocate here or at least not start waving any flags or chest-beating ceremony:
Look at the US bases in Asia and look at their locations -- both in terms of securing the US and then how it surrounds China. A map here would help you visualise this.
Their purpose (the bases) is to ensure that both military and economically it plays a strategic role in protecting the interest of the US right?
From Hawaii to Guam; from Japan, Korea to the Philippines to Singapore to Diego Garcia and the UAE.
Fair play or fair dinkum as they say in Oz. It's the largest economy in the world, it needs to ensure that oil supplies need flow and it needs to make sure there are early detection or trip wires in place.
All for both the US interests and help some global stability ... as a non-nuclear version of MADD.
Now let's look at China, which is now the 2nd largest economy in the world. Look at where it gets its oils and look at the military bases (with similar purposes to the US) that protect its interest and the supply chain for its raw materials to keep its economy going.
See the difference? It's night & day the difference. One island in the Spratleys versus
At this stage of the game, China is a paper tiger of military power that's completely vulnerable to US pressures in terms of blockages to its raw materials.
There is historical precedence here -- the US's economic blockages on Japan prior to the start of WW2 and then tripped their invasion of SE Asia later for raw materials like rubber, oil etc and the attack on Pearl.
This is why the sentiments towards the US has started to shift in Asia especially amongst the younger generation in the last 5 years. They see the US increasingly as being the bully both militarily and economically in the region.
The US soft power in the region is waning. It's starting to feel less relevant in their daily lives. Korean, and Chinese pop culture or even religious fundamentalist sentiments are starting to get more of a foot in the door now.
So if China feels that the US is an increasing threat, it will only force Beijing to increase its military spending and need to replicate the US global strategy of protecting its supply chain via military bases.
And this is only the beginning -- India will be the 3rd largest economic power in the world by 2030.
They will need to do the same thing as China -- protect its supply chains and the military support system to support their needs.
So now you have the 3 largest economies in the world in Asia/Pacific in less than 10 years' time.
Do you think any POTUS will put boots on the ground for Taiwan now? Is Taiwan really worth it when there are much bigger fish to fry?
This is why it's dumb for the US to provoke further any tensions in the region.
We should all be focusing on ensuring or creating conditions for some economic recovery post-pandemic -- rather than for one's personal political or financial gains.
You are playing checkers and not chess here. Plus you need to understand the background of the Taiwan/China relationship.
Imagine if the Confederate Army had retreated to say Florida or some island off it. And 150 years later still claims it's an independent nation?
Then Putin flies over to the Confederate rebel/renegade island?
No biggie?
After a generation of folks have been able to be born, live, and die of natural causes, we can accept that it’s a separate country. I understand China wants Taiwan to be a part of one China, but I want Chinese people to be able to protest government oppression without getting run over by tanks. We can’t always get what we want.
Apologies if I don't always respond quickly -- the website seems to log me off every 5-10mins for some reason. Spoke to Alex on this but nothing has been done.
Absolutely. The TPP was designed in some ways to trap China by leaving it out --- and then later if it wanted to join, play by the rules set up by the TPP founders incl the US. It gave cover to the other nations within the TPP.
Pulling out made the other countries vulnerable to the economic and financial might of China incl the current US allies.
It was a chess game.
So now we are left with more military solutions and fewer economic levers.
The stupid nuclear subs deal with the Aussies was just the beginning. But the Aussies are stupid anyway. I think the Kiwis are more strategic than the Aussies in general. A Kiwi running Australia would be real economic power.
So now, the AP region a potential battlefield -- certainly accelerated the arms race.
Soon you have India coming up. They need to protect their supply chains plus their usual bogeyman, the Paks.
I understand the relationship between China and Taiwan. The real government of China is in Taiwan. The Maoist/Communists that currently inhabit Beijing are the interlopers as they overthrew the ROC.
In your scenario the Confederates won and chased the Union to an island. Then the Confederates expanded their human rights abuses, threaten Canada and Mexico with invasion on the regular. Build fake islands in the Atlantic and say that the territorial waters around Iceland and Greenland are theirs. Lob missiles into the Hudson Bay. Scramble bombers and attack fighters and run them along the island. Steal technology and IP from all who do business with them.
Listen, I know at some level you have a connection to China but the CCP sucks an entire bag of dicks. Yeah, we need to up our game in dealing with them, but running away with our tails between our legs because they are butt hurt over a glaring example of how good their country could be if it wasn't run by a bunch of shitbag gangsters isn't it.
Who gives a shit? Just because Xi has a tiny dick and is upset that Taiwan doesn't want to be part of the communist shit stain that murdered millions across the globe and created economic disruption doesn't mean the U.S. or any other country should bend the knee.
Did we not learn anything from the 1930s?
A generation is meaningless in the context of Taiwan and Chinese history. China doesn't see the current Taiwan gov't as the rightful ruler of Taiwan. Its a rebel government.
The Chinese had inhabited Taiwan since the 1300s. Long history there and the current Taiwan gov't has taken over the island for like 70yrs only.
Hell, look at the Cubans in Miami -- their hatred towards the Cuba gov't is still strong despite Castro being dead for a while now. It's been more than a couple of generations.
Or even Jan 6th -- I guess you see it as a suppression of the People's fight for freedom/liberty? Did they want the illegal, cheatin' Biden gov't not to be elected?
Or do you want to go back further -- Jim Crow laws? Does 'time' then allow one to wash your previous sins of that generation? Then if that's the case, why not China? What's the diff between the 50s and the 80s in terms of time perspective?
As I have always argued -- all political actors are shit. It's always a degree of stench that distinguishes them. It would be the height of naivety to think that its about good versus evil.
So the argument here is really about stones and glasshouses.
Can always count on you to show up and spread the official Chinese Communist Party narrative.
The ROC came to power after overthrowing the Qing Dynasty in 1912. The Communists started a civil war against the Republic in 1927. That got put nominally on hold when the Japanese invaded the mainland in WW2. After the Japanese were defeated in WW2, the ROC was again the recognized governmwnt.. The communists won the war on the mainland and the Republic relocated to Taiwan. That is not revisionist history, it is history.
And everybody on this planet, including you, knows that living in a place like Taiwan (or Singapore) is preferable to living under the CCP and under Xi who is a petty little tyrant whose death will someday be celebrated by billions.
China has a recorded history of over 5,000years. It's very convenient of you to only select only the past 100 years. But I guess that's the problem with any discussion here. There is no element or understanding of history and its context.
And the moment there is a counter-narrative, it's back to your pavlovian cold war response.
I am also the only person who lives in the region. I am 100% certain the only person here who speaks the same language as the Taiwanese and thus the cultural and contextual meanings.
So I suspect my understanding of the relationship between China and Taiwan has a little more depth and nuanced than your jingoistic tripe.
Propaganda.
The people who occupy Taiwan are (predominantly) ethnically Chinese. They were part of the Republic of China which predated the CCP's rule of China. Any claims the mainland could make on Taiwan are equally or more strongly made by the Chinese inhabitants of Taiwan. You talk about the ROC being in charge of Taiwan for only 70 years, well the CCP has NEVER been in charge of Taiwan. N-E-V-E-R, never.
In your Cuba example, the CCP=Castro and Taiwan is the dissidents in Miami. The Mao/the CCP and Castro were both communists who overthrew the government of China and Cuba respectively.
Jan 6th? You want to bring democracy into a discussion about one of the most oppressive and autocratic regimes on the planet? Our democracy is messy but it isn't China. The Taiwanese have fought and continue to be willing to fight unification with the CCP.
There is no time discussion to be had here. Jim Crow was bad in the 1950's and 1960's and what China is doing in Xinjian and Hong Kong and Tibet and everywhere they sink their dirty claws is bad now.
Everybody may have a degree of stench but I'm not letting you get away with the same bullshit propaganda that totalitarian regimes have tried to pull on the U.S. for decades. You are trying Soviet style whataboutism where the "stench" of the U.S. is some b.o. and the stench of China is a couple million rotting bodies.
Taiwanese people have no interest in unifying with China. Does that not matter?
Seriously you want to compare what's happening to Hong Kong and Xinjiang to Jim Crow?
That's out of touch you are as a white male.
You know what's funny... when i was arguing the case for Ukraine (against Russia) with my Russian friends, they used that very same word.
Propaganda... just like you.
Taiwanese people have no interest in unifying with China. Does that not matter?
Even if it wanted to, it's not going to happen for another 30-50years IMO. Anyway, you can argue the point that the US being a 50/50 divided country, should they split the nation up based on surveys or politically?
At some point, Taiwan becomes less relevant economically (and politically to the world) and then it will return to China and it will be a natural hinterland. Currently, 50% of the Taiwanese economy is directly (export & import) related to trading with china. China is its largest trading partner, hands down.
So at some point, they will figure out a way to return to the fold.
That would be a more pragmatic approach rather than forcing the issue.
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That's hardly a relevant comparison. Taiwanese people are literally unified AGAINST unification with China. The U.S. isn't unified on hardly anything these days.
The longer Taiwan feels and enjoys independence, the harder it is to do that.
Apologies for the late response -- its annoying as hell when I would try and log back in, only to be blocked by the site's server. I have to type as fast as possible before I get logged out and I cant post what I wrote/responded!!
Chinese are pragmatic folks. Who's to say that a rich China wont be different say in 50 years' time? There has been huge changes just in the last 20years.
Or Taiwan feels that its economy is too dependent on China, its largest trading partner today but feels the need to make its trades more efficient and competitive by being part of the larger domestic economy -- without the hassles of taxes, or supply chain challenges when trading with China?
Or in the medium term -- when the Pearl Delta economic regional pact (that includes GZ, SZ, HK) becomes a such powerhouse that SF/Bay Area and later Taiwan could enter into that economic regional cooperation.
Attitudes in the Bay Area toward China are vastly different to that of the folks in the Mid-West or even the East Coast crowd. There is business to be made today and the future really is China and eventually India as far as the Bay-area elites are concerned.
Trust me -- two of my siblings are here visiting. We had a huge shouting match in an Indian restaurant* the other day just on this. The NYT, anti-Chinese sibling & her Columbia prof liberal eastern elite against me, my other SF sister --- and my NYC-born but SF-based nephew.
Oddly I was accused of listening to propaganda -- when I am the only one living in the region. No CCP stooge malarkey though.
* relevant only because luckily it wasn't too out of place if you know Indian culture.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
I doubt Pelosi or Newt did that either. But your premise--that to figure out what the Taiwanese want means you would look at the aborigines of Taiwan is just silly.
I also typically don't buy arguments about "historical rights" or who conquered what hundreds or thousands of years ago. (Those arguments sound a lot like Putin defending his invasion of Ukraine, don't they? Hitler's invasion of Sudentenland? I don't think that's a coincidence.) In my opinion, a person alive today does not have a right to conquer another person because he can find a first-in-time ancestor that lived there. I reject that justification wholesale.
There are 24 million people living on that island who don't want to live under Chinese rule. I know a few, who lived here and were friends and then they moved back. They are happy anytime the US supports Taiwan. If the Taiwanese don't want to poke China with this visit, Pelosi should honor that.
Note, I don't think that if they want her to visit, that means she should necessarily go. The U.S. should analyze this based on the host of other strategic factors you mention, as well. But I hope one of the factors we always consider is the U.S. interest in promoting the freedom of the 24 million Taiwanese people.
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
If Taiwan one day votes to join Communist China, so be it. That is their right. It's not China's to conquer them and force 24 million people to live under their rule.
Do you honestly believe China would be justified in invading Taiwan, conquering it, and subjecting those 24 million people to their rule?
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anon_6hv78pr714xta
Guest
China-Taiwan: As China broods, Taiwan is in a 'Pelosi lovefest'
The US Speaker's visit is celebrated in Taipei, but could it spark a major US-China crisis?
www.bbc.com
