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More of that economic anxiety we've heard so much about

Rockfish1

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Sep 2, 2001
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I've never bought the whole Minnesota nice thing:

ST. CLOUD, Minn. — John Palmer, a former university professor, has always had a cause. For decades he urged Minnesota officials to face the dangers of drunken driving and embrace seatbelts. Now he has a new goal: curbing the resettlement of Somali refugees in St. Cloud, after a few thousand moved into this small city where Mr. Palmer has lived for decades.

Every weekday, he sits in the same spot at Culver’s restaurant — the corner booth near the Kwik Trip — and begins his daily intake of news from xenophobic and conspiratorial sites, such as JihadWatch.org, and articles with titles like “Lifting the Veil on the ‘Islamophobia’ Hoax.” On Thursdays, Mr. Palmer hosts a group called Concerned Community Citizens, or C-Cubed, which he formed to pressure local officials over the Muslim refugees. Mr. Palmer said at a recent meeting he viewed them as innately less intelligent than the “typical” American citizen, as well as a threat.

“The very word ‘Islamophobia’ is a false narrative,” Mr. Palmer, 70, said. “A phobia is an irrational fear.” Raising his voice, he added, “An irrational fear! There are many reasons we are not being irrational.”

In this predominantly white region of central Minnesota, the influx of Somalis, most of whom are Muslim, has spurred the sort of demographic and cultural shifts that President Trump and right-wing conservatives have stoked fears about for years. The resettlement has divided many politically active residents of St. Cloud, with some saying they welcome the migrants.

But for others, the changes have fueled talk about “white replacement,” a racist conspiracy theory tied to the declining birthrates of white Americans that has spread in far-right circles and online chat rooms and is now surfacing in some communities.

“If we start changing our way of life to accommodate where they came from, guess what happens to our country?” said Liz Baklaich, a member of C-Cubed who unsuccessfully ran for St. Cloud City Council last year. She carries an annotated Quran in her purse. “If our country becomes like Somalia, there is nowhere for us to go.”

. . . Kim Crockett, the vice president and general counsel of a conservative Minnesota think tank called the Center of the American Experiment, said she intended to eventually sue the state and challenge the resettlement program in court.

“I think of America, the great assimilator, as a rubber band, but with this — we’re at the breaking point,” Ms. Crockett said. “These aren’t people coming from Norway, let’s put it that way. These people are very visible.”

. . . Paul Brandmire, a Republican member of the St. Cloud City Council who is skeptical about the resettlement program, said some white residents had come to see themselves in a fight for survival.

“They’re becoming American citizens. And they have every right to, but this is killing us,” he continued. “This is the Hatfields and McCoys.”

. . . Bob Carrillo, a former radio host who lives in St. Michael, Minn., and has gained prominence for his anti-immigrant stance, said Mr. Trump had given voice to the concerns of “longtime Minnesotans.” At a coffee shop in St. Cloud, Mr. Carrillo also set a framed picture of his white grandchildren on the center of the table, meant to amplify the emotional impact of his xenophobic thesis: that Muslims pose an existential threat to the safety of his family.

“They’re 2 percent of the population right now, and in 5 to 10 years they’ll be at 5 percent,” Mr. Carrillo said. “At that point, we’re done for.”

. . . During a meeting of about 10 C-Cubed members in April at the Faith Lutheran Church in St. Cloud, Mr. Palmer steered a free-flowing discussion that began by comparing abortion access to the Holocaust and moved on to the city’s so-called refugee problem, and what the group could do to address it. Almost all of those present voiced some support for Mr. Trump. Others said that markers of progress were more interpersonal, and they would only be comfortable in their community if the Somali-born refugees converted to Christianity.

One woman, who declined to give her name after the group discussion, bemoaned the city’s so-called no-go zones, or the areas where white residents said they felt so uncomfortable with the Somali-American presence that they would not return — a shopping mall, a community housing center and Beaver Island Trail, a hiking area that borders the Mississippi River.

“They were just —” she said, searching for the words to describe the offending behavior of the Somali-Americans. “They were just walking around.”

 
I've never bought the whole Minnesota nice thing:

ST. CLOUD, Minn. — John Palmer, a former university professor, has always had a cause. For decades he urged Minnesota officials to face the dangers of drunken driving and embrace seatbelts. Now he has a new goal: curbing the resettlement of Somali refugees in St. Cloud, after a few thousand moved into this small city where Mr. Palmer has lived for decades.

Every weekday, he sits in the same spot at Culver’s restaurant — the corner booth near the Kwik Trip — and begins his daily intake of news from xenophobic and conspiratorial sites, such as JihadWatch.org, and articles with titles like “Lifting the Veil on the ‘Islamophobia’ Hoax.” On Thursdays, Mr. Palmer hosts a group called Concerned Community Citizens, or C-Cubed, which he formed to pressure local officials over the Muslim refugees. Mr. Palmer said at a recent meeting he viewed them as innately less intelligent than the “typical” American citizen, as well as a threat.

“The very word ‘Islamophobia’ is a false narrative,” Mr. Palmer, 70, said. “A phobia is an irrational fear.” Raising his voice, he added, “An irrational fear! There are many reasons we are not being irrational.”

In this predominantly white region of central Minnesota, the influx of Somalis, most of whom are Muslim, has spurred the sort of demographic and cultural shifts that President Trump and right-wing conservatives have stoked fears about for years. The resettlement has divided many politically active residents of St. Cloud, with some saying they welcome the migrants.

But for others, the changes have fueled talk about “white replacement,” a racist conspiracy theory tied to the declining birthrates of white Americans that has spread in far-right circles and online chat rooms and is now surfacing in some communities.

“If we start changing our way of life to accommodate where they came from, guess what happens to our country?” said Liz Baklaich, a member of C-Cubed who unsuccessfully ran for St. Cloud City Council last year. She carries an annotated Quran in her purse. “If our country becomes like Somalia, there is nowhere for us to go.”

. . . Kim Crockett, the vice president and general counsel of a conservative Minnesota think tank called the Center of the American Experiment, said she intended to eventually sue the state and challenge the resettlement program in court.

“I think of America, the great assimilator, as a rubber band, but with this — we’re at the breaking point,” Ms. Crockett said. “These aren’t people coming from Norway, let’s put it that way. These people are very visible.”

. . . Paul Brandmire, a Republican member of the St. Cloud City Council who is skeptical about the resettlement program, said some white residents had come to see themselves in a fight for survival.

“They’re becoming American citizens. And they have every right to, but this is killing us,” he continued. “This is the Hatfields and McCoys.”

. . . Bob Carrillo, a former radio host who lives in St. Michael, Minn., and has gained prominence for his anti-immigrant stance, said Mr. Trump had given voice to the concerns of “longtime Minnesotans.” At a coffee shop in St. Cloud, Mr. Carrillo also set a framed picture of his white grandchildren on the center of the table, meant to amplify the emotional impact of his xenophobic thesis: that Muslims pose an existential threat to the safety of his family.

“They’re 2 percent of the population right now, and in 5 to 10 years they’ll be at 5 percent,” Mr. Carrillo said. “At that point, we’re done for.”

. . . During a meeting of about 10 C-Cubed members in April at the Faith Lutheran Church in St. Cloud, Mr. Palmer steered a free-flowing discussion that began by comparing abortion access to the Holocaust and moved on to the city’s so-called refugee problem, and what the group could do to address it. Almost all of those present voiced some support for Mr. Trump. Others said that markers of progress were more interpersonal, and they would only be comfortable in their community if the Somali-born refugees converted to Christianity.

One woman, who declined to give her name after the group discussion, bemoaned the city’s so-called no-go zones, or the areas where white residents said they felt so uncomfortable with the Somali-American presence that they would not return — a shopping mall, a community housing center and Beaver Island Trail, a hiking area that borders the Mississippi River.

“They were just —” she said, searching for the words to describe the offending behavior of the Somali-Americans. “They were just walking around.”



My wife and I lived in Minneapolis for a decade. And "Minnesota Nice" should be replaced with "Minnesota Polite" because they are not particularly friendly or nicer than anywhere else. I was told by a guy I worked with that if I bought a place near where he lived that I would always be known as the guy who bought "XXX's" place. My kids would be known as the kids of the guy who bought "XXX's" place. Their kids would be natives.

So the idea that old people in Minnesota are freaked out about immigrants isn't particularly surprising. When we lived there the Hmong were the group that was going to destroy Minnesota, apparently they failed. If you get outside the 494/694 loop it gets rural fast and white as driven snow. The same guy from work told me jokingly that Minnesota has lots of diversity: "We have Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Germans,..."

Trump and the Republicans have done a fabulous job of stoking fear and the worst impulses of the oldest and dumbest among us.
 
The St. Cloud Times:

Our real problem is that there are too many cowards in our midst.

Yes, we said it: Cowards.

Cowards who blanch at the idea of Somalis "just walking around" on a public trail.

Cowards who cost local businesses thousands of dollars by overreacting to a mismarked security vehicle out of fear of Sharia law — which isn't coming for us. It just isn't, and only cowards believe it is.

Cowards who festoon their pickup trucks with loud mufflers and confederate flags to strike fear in others as they attempt to cover their own inadequacies.

Cowards who are too afraid to shop, dine or relax in contrived "no-go zones" also used by people "not from Norway" who like to shop, dine and relax.

Cowards who let discourse run into the sewer because it wouldn't be Minnesota Nice to ask a keyboard warrior or blowhard relative to support their wild claims with facts.

Cowards who let discourse run into the sewer because it wouldn't be Minnesota Nice to ask a keyboard warrior or blowhard relative to support their wild claims with facts.

Cowards who say #notallSt.Cloudians then carry on meekly as if that absolves our community in the eyes of the world.

Or, say, the cowards who, behind the rhetoric and the "facts" they use to promote their hate, so transparently and deeply fear a future in which they might be a minority. And get treated just like one.

. . . America is struggling with its original sin — racism — more openly now than it has in decades. St. Cloud just became a poster child for the wrong side. Again.

That is because of the un-American cowardice of the minority who hide their deep-seated insecurities behind the bravado of false patriotism — a milquetoast patriotism that venerates the flag and Lee Greenwood songs over the bedrock principle of America: All men are created equal.

Prove your courage. Speak up.​
 
I've never bought the whole Minnesota nice thing:

ST. CLOUD, Minn. — John Palmer, a former university professor, has always had a cause. For decades he urged Minnesota officials to face the dangers of drunken driving and embrace seatbelts. Now he has a new goal: curbing the resettlement of Somali refugees in St. Cloud, after a few thousand moved into this small city where Mr. Palmer has lived for decades.

Every weekday, he sits in the same spot at Culver’s restaurant — the corner booth near the Kwik Trip — and begins his daily intake of news from xenophobic and conspiratorial sites, such as JihadWatch.org, and articles with titles like “Lifting the Veil on the ‘Islamophobia’ Hoax.” On Thursdays, Mr. Palmer hosts a group called Concerned Community Citizens, or C-Cubed, which he formed to pressure local officials over the Muslim refugees. Mr. Palmer said at a recent meeting he viewed them as innately less intelligent than the “typical” American citizen, as well as a threat.

“The very word ‘Islamophobia’ is a false narrative,” Mr. Palmer, 70, said. “A phobia is an irrational fear.” Raising his voice, he added, “An irrational fear! There are many reasons we are not being irrational.”

In this predominantly white region of central Minnesota, the influx of Somalis, most of whom are Muslim, has spurred the sort of demographic and cultural shifts that President Trump and right-wing conservatives have stoked fears about for years. The resettlement has divided many politically active residents of St. Cloud, with some saying they welcome the migrants.

But for others, the changes have fueled talk about “white replacement,” a racist conspiracy theory tied to the declining birthrates of white Americans that has spread in far-right circles and online chat rooms and is now surfacing in some communities.

“If we start changing our way of life to accommodate where they came from, guess what happens to our country?” said Liz Baklaich, a member of C-Cubed who unsuccessfully ran for St. Cloud City Council last year. She carries an annotated Quran in her purse. “If our country becomes like Somalia, there is nowhere for us to go.”

. . . Kim Crockett, the vice president and general counsel of a conservative Minnesota think tank called the Center of the American Experiment, said she intended to eventually sue the state and challenge the resettlement program in court.

“I think of America, the great assimilator, as a rubber band, but with this — we’re at the breaking point,” Ms. Crockett said. “These aren’t people coming from Norway, let’s put it that way. These people are very visible.”

. . . Paul Brandmire, a Republican member of the St. Cloud City Council who is skeptical about the resettlement program, said some white residents had come to see themselves in a fight for survival.

“They’re becoming American citizens. And they have every right to, but this is killing us,” he continued. “This is the Hatfields and McCoys.”

. . . Bob Carrillo, a former radio host who lives in St. Michael, Minn., and has gained prominence for his anti-immigrant stance, said Mr. Trump had given voice to the concerns of “longtime Minnesotans.” At a coffee shop in St. Cloud, Mr. Carrillo also set a framed picture of his white grandchildren on the center of the table, meant to amplify the emotional impact of his xenophobic thesis: that Muslims pose an existential threat to the safety of his family.

“They’re 2 percent of the population right now, and in 5 to 10 years they’ll be at 5 percent,” Mr. Carrillo said. “At that point, we’re done for.”

. . . During a meeting of about 10 C-Cubed members in April at the Faith Lutheran Church in St. Cloud, Mr. Palmer steered a free-flowing discussion that began by comparing abortion access to the Holocaust and moved on to the city’s so-called refugee problem, and what the group could do to address it. Almost all of those present voiced some support for Mr. Trump. Others said that markers of progress were more interpersonal, and they would only be comfortable in their community if the Somali-born refugees converted to Christianity.

One woman, who declined to give her name after the group discussion, bemoaned the city’s so-called no-go zones, or the areas where white residents said they felt so uncomfortable with the Somali-American presence that they would not return — a shopping mall, a community housing center and Beaver Island Trail, a hiking area that borders the Mississippi River.

“They were just —” she said, searching for the words to describe the offending behavior of the Somali-Americans. “They were just walking around.”

So laughable and unhinged that you'd think it came from the Onion or something.
 
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For some reason we tend to let "everyone has a right to their opinion" apply to racism. Maybe racism should be a bigger social faux paux than wearing mismatched clothes, chewing with mouth open, or forgetting ps and qs.
 
Somehow the scandal of police posting in racist forums has escaped this forum. It appears about 5% of Philadelphia's police force made comments, 72 of them made comments so severe as to warrant being moved to desk duty.

The officers were placed on desk duty as the social media scandal brews, implicating more than 300 officers of the city’s 6,500-officer police force.
Yet we are led to believe racism is virtually eliminated. The people who are probably most upset are the fine men and women who put on the uniform with the intent of fairly protecting all. And they should be mad. And we should be angry too. I have no idea if Philadelphia is a bizarre statistical outlier because 5% is one heck of a serious problem.
 
Somehow the scandal of police posting in racist forums has escaped this forum. It appears about 5% of Philadelphia's police force made comments, 72 of them made comments so severe as to warrant being moved to desk duty.

The officers were placed on desk duty as the social media scandal brews, implicating more than 300 officers of the city’s 6,500-officer police force.
Yet we are led to believe racism is virtually eliminated. The people who are probably most upset are the fine men and women who put on the uniform with the intent of fairly protecting all. And they should be mad. And we should be angry too. I have no idea if Philadelphia is a bizarre statistical outlier because 5% is one heck of a serious problem.

We keep getting told over and over that individual police aren’t racist, and it’s just a huge coincidence that both police policy and the selective enforcement of said policy lead to disparate outcomes by race. Maybe it’s time to admit that we have both institutional racism problems, and individual racism problems.
 
The St. Cloud Times:

Our real problem is that there are too many cowards in our midst.

Yes, we said it: Cowards.

Cowards who blanch at the idea of Somalis "just walking around" on a public trail.

Cowards who cost local businesses thousands of dollars by overreacting to a mismarked security vehicle out of fear of Sharia law — which isn't coming for us. It just isn't, and only cowards believe it is.

Cowards who festoon their pickup trucks with loud mufflers and confederate flags to strike fear in others as they attempt to cover their own inadequacies.

Cowards who are too afraid to shop, dine or relax in contrived "no-go zones" also used by people "not from Norway" who like to shop, dine and relax.

Cowards who let discourse run into the sewer because it wouldn't be Minnesota Nice to ask a keyboard warrior or blowhard relative to support their wild claims with facts.

Cowards who let discourse run into the sewer because it wouldn't be Minnesota Nice to ask a keyboard warrior or blowhard relative to support their wild claims with facts.

Cowards who say #notallSt.Cloudians then carry on meekly as if that absolves our community in the eyes of the world.

Or, say, the cowards who, behind the rhetoric and the "facts" they use to promote their hate, so transparently and deeply fear a future in which they might be a minority. And get treated just like one.

. . . America is struggling with its original sin — racism — more openly now than it has in decades. St. Cloud just became a poster child for the wrong side. Again.

That is because of the un-American cowardice of the minority who hide their deep-seated insecurities behind the bravado of false patriotism — a milquetoast patriotism that venerates the flag and Lee Greenwood songs over the bedrock principle of America: All men are created equal.

Prove your courage. Speak up.​

Ouch. That'll leave a mark.
 
My wife and I lived in Minneapolis for a decade. And "Minnesota Nice" should be replaced with "Minnesota Polite" because they are not particularly friendly or nicer than anywhere else. I was told by a guy I worked with that if I bought a place near where he lived that I would always be known as the guy who bought "XXX's" place. My kids would be known as the kids of the guy who bought "XXX's" place. Their kids would be natives.

So the idea that old people in Minnesota are freaked out about immigrants isn't particularly surprising. When we lived there the Hmong were the group that was going to destroy Minnesota, apparently they failed. If you get outside the 494/694 loop it gets rural fast and white as driven snow. The same guy from work told me jokingly that Minnesota has lots of diversity: "We have Finns, Swedes, Norwegians, Germans,..."

Trump and the Republicans have done a fabulous job of stoking fear and the worst impulses of the oldest and dumbest among us.

It clearly has an impact, moreso on the lower skilled labor force (e.g. Upper Midwest, rural American manufacturing):

Concern about this pattern runs through a recent book by Reihan Salam, an author of Bangladeshi-descent. He argues that historically high rates of low-skilled immigration have resulted in the creation of ethnic enclaves and helped to worsen economic inequality, by keeping down wages. Together that threatens to make an ever more “dangerously divided society” split between groups of “irreconcilable strangers”. He argues the remedy is to choke off low-skilled immigration. Only if fewer outsiders arrive will those already here integrate. The alternative, he suggests, is a permanent, non-white underclass.

Source: Economist article


As you described, the Hmong immigrants held similar characteristics to Somalis, in contrast to the well-educated Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai immigrants.

To be sure, there is likely some disdain among locals for any individuals that are not "Westernized" (e.g. traditionalist Indians, Somalis, etc.) compared to others that blend in easier fashionably.
 
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