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Long-term care insurance

When she gets bad enough, I'll move her in with us and put a hospital bed in the spare bedroom and hire someone to come in and clean and do whatever needs to be done.

I was able to delay putting my mom in the nursing home by a year or more by bringing in home health care people. At the time it was priced reasonably and the gals who came to the house did a good job of looking after her, to the extent she let them and that time permitted. I had to keep increasing the number of days and hours they were there until it got to where she needed more help than could be provided.
 
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@BradStevens wrote
I don’t think those with dementia are unaware they are living in squalid conditions. Dementia doesn’t produce an illusory perception of living in Shangri-La. From my experience, they know and are aware of being in uncomfortable or restricted surroundings but are horribly confused about where they are and why this is happening to them. Plus, they almost always have glimpses and short periods of memory where it’s clear they are sad at what is happening to them with the disease.

Our experiences are all going to be different and will vary widely. In my experience, there was no "squalor" and the care was kind and competent. In my dad's case I didn't get a chance to vet the facility ahead of time, but they were fine. In my mom's case, I did quite a bit of research. My wife went with me to some, and she said the one we eventually chose passed the "pee test" -- it didn't smell like old piss.

(I had to reformat your post in my reply, it was bunged up in the original.)
 
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The dirty little secret is that "hospice care" is, for all intents and purposes, assisted death. The family (and perhaps the patient) need to understand going in that they're greasing the skids and that the alternative is extended suffering (and expense). I would recommend using it at the first indication that it would be appropriate. I waited too long with my dad, but when we decided it was time he was able to die comfortably and peacefully. The hospice care people know what they're doing and know what the results will be, and will cooperate with hastening death if they know it's called for and that everyone is on board.

Doesn't one need an underlying soon to be fatal condition to go into hospice, not just "I do not want to live like this"?
 
You could sell lottery tickets for the privilege of pulling the plug. Help your family out!
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Doesn't one need an underlying soon to be fatal condition to go into hospice, not just "I do not want to live like this"?

Not really. The aim is "palliative care", which is meant to reduce pain and suffering, for some value of suffering. The treatment is essentially the administration of powerful sedatives and/or pain meds (like morphine)... and we know getting the dose right can be tricky <wink> <wink>.
 
My mom is 95 and is doing well, and lives in a seniors apartment and can take care of herself. Now. But I know that won't last forever. She has zero money and gets by on a small SS payments and what I supplement. When she gets bad enough, I'll move her in with us and put a hospital bed in the spare bedroom and hire someone to come in and clean and do whatever needs to be done.

My long term health plan is to be good to my daughter and hope she's good to me.
My outlaws did that. Moved a hospital bed in for the great granddad. Had a nurse come in. Died in his own home
 
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@BradStevens wrote
I don’t think those with dementia are unaware they are living in squalid conditions. Dementia doesn’t produce an illusory perception of living in Shangri-La. From my experience, they know and are aware of being in uncomfortable or restricted surroundings but are horribly confused about where they are and why this is happening to them. Plus, they almost always have glimpses and short periods of memory where it’s clear they are sad at what is happening to them with the disease.

Our experiences are all going to be different and will vary widely. In my experience, there was no squalor" and the care was kind and competent. In my dad's case I didn't get a chance to vet the facility ahead of time, but they were fine. In my mom's case, I did quite a bit of research. My wife went with me to some, and she said the one we eventually chose passed the "pee test" -- it didn't smell like old piss.

(I had to reformat your post in my reply, it was bunged up in the original.)
Thank you. Tried but couldn't fix it.
 
My mom is 95 and is doing well, and lives in a seniors apartment and can take care of herself. Now. But I know that won't last forever. She has zero money and gets by on a small SS payments and what I supplement. When she gets bad enough, I'll move her in with us and put a hospital bed in the spare bedroom and hire someone to come in and clean and do whatever needs to be done.

My long term health plan is to be good to my daughter and hope she's good to me.

DANC, admire your outlook and plan for your Mother.

My Son and Daughter are going through some tough times in their own lives.

However they insist on helping their Mom and Dad with such things as household and yard tasks.

This role reversal just reminds me about having to face a growing dependency . A gradual change which to this point, I just cannot accept gracefully.

As Betty White once said, "Getting old isn't for sissies".
 
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I hear what you're saying, but assisted suicide is the first step to chaos.

Unscrupulous people will take advantage of this and even the government will eventually get involved.

It would become its own industry and the advertising will make it seem very attractive to anyone with depression.

"Don't be a burden to your family. We'll take care of your estate and make sure your family gets all they deserve."
Possibly. But it’s never been an available option. I’m not saying it a a “flip the switch” kinda situation. But we should think about where we are developmentally. We have so much control over our health now than our ancestors even 200 years ago. And they were 200 years ahead of their ancestors too.

Watching somebody rot away because of disease; becoming something that resembles nothing of the person they were before. It’s a devastating thing. And as an individual if I know that path lies ahead and where I have anything to provide to my family, why can’t I decide where on that path I get to just say “I’ve had enough”.

Really tough. But not providing the option tells us nothing how attitudes would change over time.
 
This is sad.

'**** religion '

Really, Lars?

Our church is 153 years old. Many of the members have attended literally their entire lives. We have a number of second and third generation families.

They endure age-related issues of health, isolation and dependence through faith. Our faith community works through visitation, communication and other support: Religion!

Suicide is murder. One cannot seek forgiveness after destroying oneself.
Apologies for being indirect Mas. No disrespect intended.

I just think we should, as a homogenous society, consider viewpoints and options beyond those that underpin our way of life.
 
We already have it…they just call it hospice
Yeah I get it. Been through it twice.

But the Three months leading up to that point when the inertia of not only the patient but the medicine is to just “stay alive”.

Again, I do t think everybody would just suddenly off themselves. And I’d be concerned about any new thing being commercialized.

I’m very open to seeing where providing the option would take us.
 
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My outlaws did that. Moved a hospital bed in for the great granddad. Had a nurse come in. Died in his own home
We've already done that for my mother-in-law, who had brain cancer. It was inconvenient, but she died surrounded by family.
 
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Apologies for being indirect Mas. No disrespect intended.

I just think we should, as a homogenous society, consider viewpoints and options beyond those that underpin our way of life.
But we're not a homogenous society. Far from it.
 
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DANC, admire your outlook and plan for your Mother.

My Son and Daughter are going through some tough times in their own lives.

However they insist on helping their Mom and Dad with such things as household and yard tasks.

This role reversal just reminds me about having to face a growing dependency . A gradual change which to this point, I just cannot accept gracefully.

As Betty White once said, "Getting old isn't for sissies".
Everyone thinks they're independent, but family and friends are important - more important than we know.

We moved to Charlotte to be near our grandkids because we want them to grow up around relatives. I realize not everyone can do that. Many people can't get along with their own relatives, but I've made it a point to maintain good relationships with my family, despite it being a challenge.

We have people in our over 55 community that rarely see their children and even more rarely their grandchildren. I just can't imagine living that way.
 
Possibly. But it’s never been an available option. I’m not saying it a a “flip the switch” kinda situation. But we should think about where we are developmentally. We have so much control over our health now than our ancestors even 200 years ago. And they were 200 years ahead of their ancestors too.

Watching somebody rot away because of disease; becoming something that resembles nothing of the person they were before. It’s a devastating thing. And as an individual if I know that path lies ahead and where I have anything to provide to my family, why can’t I decide where on that path I get to just say “I’ve had enough”.

Really tough. But not providing the option tells us nothing how attitudes would change over time.
Unfortunately, when you legalize it, it's opening Pandora's Box.
 
Apologies for being indirect Mas. No disrespect intended.

I just think we should, as a homogenous society, consider viewpoints and options beyond those that underpin our way of life.
I didn't take it as disrespectful to me personally. My perspective is skewed because I see first hand the value and 'good works' that can result from participating in our church community. One must be involved and participate. It takes commitment.

One can live in fear, or live in hope.

One can't do both.
 
But we're not a homogenous society. Far from it.
I didn't take it as disrespectful to me personally. My perspective is skewed because I see first hand the value and 'good works' that can result from participating in our church community. One must be involved and participate. It takes commitment.

One can live in fear, or live in hope.

One can't do both.

Mass, certainly you accept that there are false and true fears, and true and false hopes?
 
What does the age of the policy have to do with it? Better terms?
FIL has been paying into this one for 26 years.

Yeah even if you find one now, the newer policies likely to have much lower daily limits, longer exclusion periods, and a lifetime limit... They often cut off after 5 years. They are closer to prepaid expenses now, rather than insurance.
 
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I looked at LTC insurance more than 20 years ago and decided it wasn’t worth it. So I kinda self funded with IRA money and other investments. Now that having to use it is a possibility, I keep thinking about the big tax hit that would be connected with using those funds. I’d like to see some kind of federal tax relief for liquidating investments or IRA’s provided the funds are used for LTC. That makes more sense to me than tax relief for electric cars or solar panels.

Neither of my parents needed LTC so my luck might hold.
 
I looked at LTC insurance more than 20 years ago and decided it wasn’t worth it. So I kinda self funded with IRA money and other investments. Now that having to use it is a possibility, I keep thinking about the big tax hit that would be connected with using those funds. I’d like to see some kind of federal tax relief for liquidating investments or IRA’s provided the funds are used for LTC. That makes more sense to me than tax relief for electric cars or solar panels.

Neither of my parents needed LTC so my luck might hold.
Should apply to selling a house and possessions, as well.
 
I looked at LTC insurance more than 20 years ago and decided it wasn’t worth it. So I kinda self funded with IRA money and other investments. Now that having to use it is a possibility, I keep thinking about the big tax hit that would be connected with using those funds. I’d like to see some kind of federal tax relief for liquidating investments or IRA’s provided the funds are used for LTC. That makes more sense to me than tax relief for electric cars or solar panels.

Neither of my parents needed LTC so my luck might hold.

We've not had anyone in our family require LTC to this point. A lot of old folks that have all died at home with family around. But it only works if you have family that is willing and able... And I realize we've been lucky. Almost every one of them has needed pretty significant care but there's always been someone there to do it.
 
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My in laws got quite the shock regarding their long-term care insurance. Just recevied a notice that to continue their current benefit level, they would be required to pay premium increases of 133% phased in over the next few years. From ~$7400 to $16,000 a year. Already paid about $80k in premiums. Didn't realize this stuff was so expensive. Also didn't realize insurance companies sold policies like this that are subject to such a large increase in premiums.

I'm assuming the company dotted their i's and crossed their t's with the insurance regulators (but will be checking). Anyone have experience with this? What do you do about this? Roll the dice and hope you don't end up in LTC? Keep paying the same rate but take the lower benefits? Go broke and let Medicaid pay?

As I type this, I realize I better ask my dad about what he's got lined up with my mom for stuff like this. Ugh, I do not want to have that talk. All of this stuff makes me queasy.

I'll give you some good advice on where to get better advice. Go over to the Boglehead forum.



Really impressive, intelligent and successful group of people that have broken this topic down from the financial perspective. You can probably search LTC insurance and find whatever answers you want there. If not, start a thread and you'll get as good as advice as you'd get from any high priced advisor. At the least, a very good starting point.
 
Hospice care has become big, big business and I’m more and more wary of this industry all the time. The number of hospice companies that have popped up in my little area over the past few years tells me how much mulah is there to be had. Because of this there are incredibly great hospice nurses and now there are also fairly shady teams. “Hospice” is no longer a homogenous term. And I’ve also witnessed so many families who absolutely KNEW they were
Doing the right thing still deal with major regrets after the death about whether or not their loved one really needed that last dose of morphine or did that actually kill them before their time? True assisted suicide would likely leave so many families in chaos and probably lead to innumerable lawsuits and as mentioned above commercials to commoditize death for the depressed. I can’t be on board with legalized suicide
 
Hospice care has become big, big business and I’m more and more wary of this industry all the time. The number of hospice companies that have popped up in my little area over the past few years tells me how much mulah is there to be had. Because of this there are incredibly great hospice nurses and now there are also fairly shady teams. “Hospice” is no longer a homogenous term. And I’ve also witnessed so many families who absolutely KNEW they were
Doing the right thing still deal with major regrets after the death about whether or not their loved one really needed that last dose of morphine or did that actually kill them before their time? True assisted suicide would likely leave so many families in chaos and probably lead to innumerable lawsuits and as mentioned above commercials to commoditize death for the depressed. I can’t be on board with legalized suicide
Well the Baby Boomers are getting old so more hospice places are probably needed. That's good news for JDB 🤣
 
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I suppose one could live in hope and faith for one's soul and fear spiders.
If I understand your point.

Mass, as to fear and hope on the same subject.

You could hope the 2024 IU football team goes undefeated while at the same time fearing the odds are against it.
 
We already have it…they just call it hospice

I had this talk with my grandma's third husband once he found out his cancer had returned and he decided not to go through chemo again.

He flat out told me he felt like chemo made him into someone he wasn't and that he would rather die before going through that again. He resisted all medication because he was tired of living in pain and just wanted to get it over with.

It was heartbreaking to hear someone that had lost all hope living like that, but he was done. My grandma had passed by then, he had one brother alive that lived out of state, so all he really had was my mom, my wife and I and my two sisters as support (my mom lives about an hour away and one of my sisters isn't far from that). We tried to be there as much as possible, but having three kids wasn't the easiest thing to handle because my younger kids didn't fully understand what was going on.

That kind of changed my mind about the subject. He lived at home until the final day of his life when he called my mom and told her it was time to go into hospice. He died 12 hours later.

It's hard for me to juggle when someone would qualify or not, but I would have been on full support of him going out like he wanted. It would have been much easier on not only us, but also him as well, not having to live in pain, him not throwing up after every meal, ect. I feel like we are to selfish in some instances and put some people through unnecessary pain when some people don't want to go through it anymore.
 
I had this talk with my grandma's third husband once he found out his cancer had returned and he decided not to go through chemo again.

He flat out told me he felt like chemo made him into someone he wasn't and that he would rather die before going through that again. He resisted all medication because he was tired of living in pain and just wanted to get it over with.

It was heartbreaking to hear someone that had lost all hope living like that, but he was done. My grandma had passed by then, he had one brother alive that lived out of state, so all he really had was my mom, my wife and I and my two sisters as support (my mom lives about an hour away and one of my sisters isn't far from that). We tried to be there as much as possible, but having three kids wasn't the easiest thing to handle because my younger kids didn't fully understand what was going on.

That kind of changed my mind about the subject. He lived at home until the final day of his life when he called my mom and told her it was time to go into hospice. He died 12 hours later.

It's hard for me to juggle when someone would qualify or not, but I would have been on full support of him going out like he wanted. It would have been much easier on not only us, but also him as well, not having to live in pain, him not throwing up after every meal, ect. I feel like we are to selfish in some instances and put some people through unnecessary pain when some people don't want to go through it anymore.
Yes. Family guilt is huge in these situations. Too many times it’s an estranged family member who forces the issue for their family member to continue life
 
I had this talk with my grandma's third husband once he found out his cancer had returned and he decided not to go through chemo again.

He flat out told me he felt like chemo made him into someone he wasn't and that he would rather die before going through that again. He resisted all medication because he was tired of living in pain and just wanted to get it over with.

It was heartbreaking to hear someone that had lost all hope living like that, but he was done. My grandma had passed by then, he had one brother alive that lived out of state, so all he really had was my mom, my wife and I and my two sisters as support (my mom lives about an hour away and one of my sisters isn't far from that). We tried to be there as much as possible, but having three kids wasn't the easiest thing to handle because my younger kids didn't fully understand what was going on.

That kind of changed my mind about the subject. He lived at home until the final day of his life when he called my mom and told her it was time to go into hospice. He died 12 hours later.

It's hard for me to juggle when someone would qualify or not, but I would have been on full support of him going out like he wanted. It would have been much easier on not only us, but also him as well, not having to live in pain, him not throwing up after every meal, ect. I feel like we are to selfish in some instances and put some people through unnecessary pain when some people don't want to go through it anymore.
Yeah, I’m not sure there is any honor or virtue in sitting around in pain waiting to die.
 
Many of the LTC plans have failed. The market barely exists any more. Industry determined 20 years ago they had wildly underpriced risk and as such either quit the market entirely or greatly adjusted pricing. Overall market is only like 10% the size it was 20 years ago.

Only policies typically worth keeping are the old ones. Probably wouldn't waste your time even looking a new policy today. Go broke or suicide are the realistic options. Or the govt run hell holes. Hopefully your kids like you and will take the job.

Ummm...not quite true. As an advisor, I can say there are still several LTC options available and they can fit budgets.

You are right that some companies have left the market, but several quality companies still exist.
 
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LTC insurance? Here's how the working poor do it: don't buy insurance. When you start getting feeble, give everything to your kids. Live with them long enough it can't be clawed back. Have them dump you in Medicare approved facility and forget about you. Easy peasy.
That’s the way it’s done. If you have money saved there’s legal tricks using annuities and not having to worry about the waiting period.
 
My in laws got quite the shock regarding their long-term care insurance. Just recevied a notice that to continue their current benefit level, they would be required to pay premium increases of 133% phased in over the next few years. From ~$7400 to $16,000 a year. Already paid about $80k in premiums. Didn't realize this stuff was so expensive. Also didn't realize insurance companies sold policies like this that are subject to such a large increase in premiums.

I'm assuming the company dotted their i's and crossed their t's with the insurance regulators (but will be checking). Anyone have experience with this? What do you do about this? Roll the dice and hope you don't end up in LTC? Keep paying the same rate but take the lower benefits? Go broke and let Medicaid pay?

As I type this, I realize I better ask my dad about what he's got lined up with my mom for stuff like this. Ugh, I do not want to have that talk. All of this stuff makes me queasy.
I’ve never known any of my clients saying their premiums ever changed.
 
I’ve never known any of my clients saying their premiums ever changed.

Oh it happens. I sold plenty of policies that have had increases. However, I can say most have been with my out of Indiana clients.
 
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