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Leak of Roe Wade Ruling

Give Debs his due.

In the 1920 election, Debs "received the largest number of popular votes ever received by a Socialist Party candidate in the United States", although he was incarcerated in the Atlanta Penitentiary at the time.

Also had some valuable campaign items from his 4 campaigns. The best from 1920 though is Cox And FDR.
 
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C'mon this is a silly comparison as one is a private sector who answers to no one but himself (and good for him) vs a government employee who has a million miles of red tape and answers to basically everyone.

But fine, I'll play along.

What utility has Musk actually brought in the name of public service? Developed a cool electric car? Yeah everyone is doing that.

Did Musk get broadband to rural areas? Did he unclog the world's supply chain (oh by the way, levels of service are close to normal and 4th quarter in stocks and sales were a strong as ever)? Did he take on the trucking industry and tackle the insanely high turnover issues like Pete is doing?

I guess I don't see this huge public utility that Musk is giving other than making electric cars cooler I guess, which has lined his pockets.

Unions are forbidden at Tesla so...not sure what he's doing for the working class to make their lives different or even better which is the basic role of good government.

Look, I'm not trying to convert you to a Pete voter. That's never happening and that's cool.

I'm just trying to explain why he's so popular within the party and the reasons for that popularity.

I mean you mentioned he's gay. Yeah, I'm not sure how that plays out either. I'm not sure we're at a point as a country to where that's not going to be a big issue for people regardless what they say externally.

I do know, that his empathetic political style and calm demeanor will play against whatever anti-gay jokes, smears or slurs come his way.

It would be much easier if Pete was a rabid, angry politician to throw in some queer jokes and no one really cares because most people are annoyed by the person.

He's not playing that, so when you attack a calm, measured and empathetic Pete...the accuser ends up really looking like the mean spirited, homophobic slack jawed pig that's out of touch and out of date.

Women especially, see that clear as day as they're very in tune with piggish behavior and piggish intimidation tactics....which again plays to his strengths.

Basically it's hard to be cruel to someone who's perceived as kind hearted.

Politically it's a unique angle.

Appreciate the conversation brother.
I wonder if Musk will make electric lighters standard equipment in his electric cars, like they used to be. Apparently Musk can see the usefulness of a lighter.

12d0b050241c6dbd98cd99518bcf48b4
 
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While I don't disagree with the idea that this shouldn't have been leaked and there should be repercussions for it, I feel like there should also be some accountability for justices who essentially lied and said whatever they needed to say to get through their appointment hearings. Yes, it's less of an offense, but it probably needs addressed.

I'm not sure how you do that exactly, beyond taking the appointment out of the hands of the POTUS. Maybe the Justices themselves could have a stable of potential replacements and do the hearings themselves. I don't know if that's a reasonable suggestion or not - just spitballing here.

As an aside, I think there should be an age and/or term limit for serving on the Supreme Court. The idea that our two main political parties operate on the hope that a Justice lives/dies is crazy.
Don’t really disagree with you on most of what you said BUT every Justice on the Supreme Court lied and left out details to get approved.
 
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Pete is definitely left. He said it himself, he would be the most progressive president to date. He's a little left of the old guard but still very right of Bernie and Warren.

He's just not batshit crazy, angry and doesn't scream and rant in your face...he communicates his positions very effectively.

He's definitely left of McMurtry, but he's right in the sweet spot for women voters...who are more passionate especially about this current SCOTUS decision, a larger base (there are 97 males for every 100 females) and becoming the dominant gender with college degrees and masters.

This is getting circulated around today. See how he answers this difficult question, particularly late term abortions, with empathy but in a manner that is easily understood.

This is what a really effective communicator can do...answer delicate and complex questions effectively without insulting because once you insult, you've killed the conversation.



Now compare with Harris and her stance on the topic, who makes great points and I agree with every one, but this is the standard political fire and brimstone that everyone uses these days featuring an angry tone, some insults and emotional words that are so big that it might get lost as 'over the top' and therefore tuned out and not heard.

It's just a comparison of style.




Right. Manchin is a centrist, Pete is left, Bernie is far left.

Bullock is centrist, Obama is left, AOC is far left



Reagan was owned by Wall St and the rich, and every move he made was to benefit them at the expense of the working class.

Clinton was owned by Wall St and the rich, and every move he made was to benefit them at the expense of the working class.

GWB was owned by Wall St and the rich, and every move he made was to benefit them at the expense of the working class.

Obama was owned by Wall St and the rich, and every move he made was to benefit them at the expense of the working class.

Biden was owned by Wall St and the rich, and every move he made was to benefit them at the expense of the working class.

Manchin, Sinema, and some other Dem senators, (though not all), are owned by Wall St and the rich.

all, to virtually all, Pub senators are owned by Wall St and the rich.

in a political system where buying politicians, policy, and even parties, is perfectly legal, it can be no other way, and expecting it to would be foolhardy.



that said, whether one defines being owned by Wall St and the rich, and serving them all the time on everything at the expense of the working class, is left or right, or far left or far right, is just someone assigning their own personal label to serving Wall St and the rich on everything all the time, at the expense of the working class.


literally all CORPORATE media serve Wall St and the rich, all the time on everything.

being they're CORPORATE, controlled by corporations and owned by the rich, and other corporations also owned by the rich, it can be no other way, and expecting it to would be beyond foolhardy.


now if one wants to say a politician who serves Wall St and the rich on everything all the time at the expense of the working class, occupies a different spot on the right-left scale because they back minorities, and/or personal freedoms, more of less than others, so be it.

but they still back Wall St and the rich on everything all the time at the expense of the working class.

the same with all CORPORATE media. i repeat ALL. as in ALL.

there is no "liberal" CORPORATE media, nor is it even possible for there to be.

that said, if one wants to assign right to left designation strictly on social matters and nothing else, then they should specify so in their designation, and that it only refers to social issues.

and if one is assigning right to left designations, be it to politicians or media, on social issues only, then they should clarify if being pro individual and pro personal freedom and pro equality is a right thing or a left thing, and vice versa, just so we'll know how they are defining right or left as to social issues..
 
C'mon this is a silly comparison as one is a private sector who answers to no one but himself (and good for him) vs a government employee who has a million miles of red tape and answers to basically everyone.

But fine, I'll play along.

What utility has Musk actually brought in the name of public service? Developed a cool electric car? Yeah everyone is doing that.

Did Musk get broadband to rural areas? Did he unclog the world's supply chain (oh by the way, levels of service are close to normal and 4th quarter in stocks and sales were a strong as ever)? Did he take on the trucking industry and tackle the insanely high turnover issues like Pete is doing?

I guess I don't see this huge public utility that Musk is giving other than making electric cars cooler I guess, which has lined his pockets.

Unions are forbidden at Tesla so...not sure what he's doing for the working class to make their lives different or even better which is the basic role of good government.

Look, I'm not trying to convert you to a Pete voter. That's never happening and that's cool.

I'm just trying to explain why he's so popular within the party and the reasons for that popularity.

I mean you mentioned he's gay. Yeah, I'm not sure how that plays out either. I'm not sure we're at a point as a country to where that's not going to be a big issue for people regardless what they say externally.

I do know, that his empathetic political style and calm demeanor will play against whatever anti-gay jokes, smears or slurs come his way.

It would be much easier if Pete was a rabid, angry politician to throw in some queer jokes and no one really cares because most people are annoyed by the person.

He's not playing that, so when you attack a calm, measured and empathetic Pete...the accuser ends up really looking like the mean spirited, homophobic slack jawed pig that's out of touch and out of date.

Women especially, see that clear as day as they're very in tune with piggish behavior and piggish intimidation tactics....which again plays to his strengths.

Basically it's hard to be cruel to someone who's perceived as kind hearted.

Politically it's a unique angle.

Appreciate the conversation brother.
I posit that he would have done all of those things better than Pete could ever conceive of doing. What's more he would have been on the job doing them with the ridiculous amount of financial resources at his disposal instead of home virtue signaling.

Libs are so concerned with the climate and going electric. Tesla. Largest electric vehicle company in America. Check. And everyone wasn't doing that. Musk brought it to scale. International Space Station threats from Russia. No worries Musk says he'll keep it going. The war in Ukraine. No problem. He'll keep the internet on. And he continues to innovate. If the Boring company gets that loop in miami beach it would be fantastic. Who do you think will revolutionize travel in this country? BIden and Amtrak and Pete sitting home talking about racist bridges and virtue -signaling collecting his gov check or Musk out there being an innovator.

The difference is one is a bureaucrat and one is an innovator. I trust Pete is a kinder soul than Musk. Musk knew the Capt was still in love with that no good Amber when he slid into her DMs, but Pete is in gov because he's a Pete and Musk is changing the world because he's an innovator. We've had too many Petes in gov sucking the teats of taxpayers. I wish we could find a way to get some innovators into gov.

As for the appreciating the convo you're always a rock star with me.
 
That speaking calmly, or even just the ability to speak, is the new bar is sad. But after Biden, Harris and Trump it is what it is. Pete stayed home availing himself of a benefit offered to no one else. I will never vote for Pete. I voted for Clinton, Obama, and would vote for other Dems down the road. Never Pete. Show up. It's the least we can do
I think you're a little out of touch with the "benefit offered to no one else" comment. I've worked for 2 companies that are damn near Fortune 500 and have seen MULTIPLE execs take this leave in the past 5 years (most making well into the 7 figures). One company is even domiciled in a "Red" state and heavily governed by "Red" politics. Trust me, this isn't unusual in today's workforce. The funny thing is, I've seen some of my most right leaning male friends use 4-6 weeks after their kids were born. BTW, I'm pushing 50, so not some young millennial.
 
I think you're a little out of touch with the "benefit offered to no one else" comment. I've worked for 2 companies that are damn near Fortune 500 and have seen MULTIPLE execs take this leave in the past 5 years (most making well into the 7 figures). One company is even domiciled in a "Red" state and heavily governed by "Red" politics. Trust me, this isn't unusual in today's workforce. The funny thing is, I've seen some of my most right leaning male friends use 4-6 weeks after their kids were born. BTW, I'm pushing 50, so not some young millennial.
Amongst gov employees. What's more only five states mandate paid leave. I'm not talking about some perk given at a company where God knows how many hours they put in. I'm talking about a guy who just got on the job and took paid leave that wasn't afforded to any GS employees because he wasn't on the job long enough. You have to be on the job long enough to qualify for paid leave if you're on the general schedule. So he took a perk that no other fed ees get.
 
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Oh I know all about it. It's awful. The CEO of Boeing jumps to mind. That said that's a private business and a CEO. Not a "servant" living on taxes. As an aside the netflix show on boeing is really interesting.
We have a problem in this country of valuing work over family. Pete took meetings during that time which I think was bad, no one is irreplaceable. No one. We need a cultural shift that if your child is in the hospital the parents should be with it. I don't care if it is Pete or anyone else. Because of his visibility I would call it a role model

But I know some of our posters oppose time of for this kind of thing, from the pro-family side.

We need a change.
 
We have a problem in this country of valuing work over family. Pete took meetings during that time which I think was bad, no one is irreplaceable. No one. We need a cultural shift that if your child is in the hospital the parents should be with it. I don't care if it is Pete or anyone else. Because of his visibility I would call it a role model

But I know some of our posters oppose time of for this kind of thing, from the pro-family side.

We need a change.
Missing the point. It's paid leave. I don't have any problem with the law as it's written to allow people to take leave. I have a problem requiring an employer to pay for it
 
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People choose to do business with companies. Pete was forced upon the American people as an appointee by an administration as inept as he was when he was needed most.

wake up.

Pete was offered that position in exchange for pulling out of the Dem primary the night before super Tuesday, and endorsing Biden, the Dem candidate his positions were furthest from.

primary prez candidates don't EVER pull out the night before super tuesday, thus giving the finger to all their volunteers and donors, without some major quid pro quo in return..

SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, Pete gets Trans Sec.
 
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wake up.

Pete was offered that position in exchange for pulling out of the Dem primary the night before super Tuesday, and endorsing Biden, the Dem candidate his positions were furthest from.

primary prez candidates don't EVER pull out the night before super tuesday, thus giving the finger to all their volunteers and donors, without some major quid pro quo in return..

SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, Pete gets Trans Sec.
I won't disagree with that. There were rumors that Obama sat him down after Pete dive bombed in South Carolina.

That doesn't change the fact that his campaign was DOA. He gambled (and I know you liked to call him wine cave Pete/Wall St Pete because he had some big donors, but even with that he didn't have close to the war chest that Bernie, Warren and Biden had. He didn't have a war chest built up that he was able to transfer and roll from senatorial fundraising into a presidential campaign. Oh and then have Warren, after she rolls her millions that she got from big donor events, then opportunistically publicly push for every candidate to not do big donor events. Yeah, f off with that Liz).

Anyway, Pete put the majority of his resources into Iowa and New Hampshire, hoping for the Iowa push.

Well Iowa was a disaster that wasn't settled until after New Hampshire and Biden wasn't knocked out (neither was Klobuchar). Pete finished second in New Hampshire, and Biden survived that.

Pete had to first knock out Biden to have a chance. He was the moderate, sorry the establishment dem second choice poll wise going into Iowa (it seemed as it was basically a race of four...Bernie, Warren, Biden and Pete going into Iowa).

I think he finished third in Nevada and Biden beat him pretty strongly, pulling Biden out of the grave.

South Carolina was a drubbing as Biden on the heels of Clyburn whooped everybody's ass.

Pete was obviously cooked and I'm sure a deal was made like you said. That's politics 101.

In the meantime, and I have no idea why, Warren refused to bow out even though she was cooked after New Hampshire. Again I didn't understand that from her.

I know you believe it's a massive conspiracy and Bernie was F'd over, again, but the whole primary season was simple math for two factions running. The progressives of Bernie and Warren vs the establishment that was what, 7 plus serious candidates (then f'ing Bloomberg tries to swoop in late adding another 'establishment' candidate to dilute the pool).

Once it got down to one progressive and one establishment dem....it was over and it wasn't really close to be honest.

Unlike the RNC primary which is winner takes all (I think) ..the DNC is by shares which means, it really is a tougher primary to win if you're not considered the establishment majority. Trump was able to jump to such a huge lead in the 2016 primary because it was winner takes all.

Bottom line that we hopefully learned but probably didn't is (obviously) once it's settled take some time off to get the anger out and to grieve but then show up to vote.

As much as you hate HRC, or Biden, or the DNC, or Pete or even Warren...we're about to see what really happens when we sit out because we think we are protesting. We just give away power to those that are pretty much diametrically opposed to everything we agree on.

Ignore Roe v Wade or the planned parenthood ruling that's under attack....take climate change. We bicker on the best 'plan' and everyone has one....and we know we are way past due to on where we should be...but if we don't show up together we're just handing over power to a group that definitely doesn't have a plan, or a concern or even believe it's existence in some cases.
 
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Missing the point. It's paid leave. I don't have any problem with the law as it's written to allow people to take leave. I have a problem requiring an employer to pay for it
For most people that is pure crap. Working people can't afford to go lose their pay while incurring massive medical bills. You know that, you are giving them a false choice. Lose your home, lose your savings, but yes, you can stay home if you want.

I am curious who here will have the intestinal fortitude to admit that they believe Americans should prioritize job over family?
 
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Missing the point. It's paid leave. I don't have any problem with the law as it's written to allow people to take leave. I have a problem requiring an employer to pay for it
So you are against paid vacation and sick time too? You might find it too new school, but paid parent leave is an expectation now.
 
For most people that is pure crap. Working people can't afford to go lose their pay while incurring massive medical bills. You know that, you are giving them a false choice. Lose your home, lose your savings, but yes, you can stay home if you want.

I am curious who here will have the intestinal fortitude to admit that they believe Americans should prioritize job over family?
Again you're missing the point. You keep trying to couch it as prioritizing job over family. That's not the issue. The issue is who should bear the burden of footing the bill for your decision to have a baby. To think your boss needs to pay for it Is entitlement thinking. You get 12 weeks off. To care for the baby. If lost income is an issue find a job, that provides paid leave, buy a short term disability plan, or don't get pregnant.

There's a hell of an entitlement mentality in your party. Now they want to forgive loans. Now all those people who couldn't go to college, didn't go to college, are subsidizing this loss through their taxes.
 
So you are against paid vacation and sick time too? You might find it too new school, but paid parent leave is an expectation now.
I'm great with it as an expectation. Negotiate for it. If you are valuable negotiate for all you can get. Don't mandate it
 
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If lost income is an issue find a job, that provides paid leave, buy a short term disability plan, or don't get pregnant.

If only people who could afford to raise a child with serious medical conditions ever had children our birthrate would be far lower than it is today. And it already is too damn low for economic growth. Most poor people can't afford to buy that type of insurance when they have trouble paying rent and buying food. But then you have a great solution, poor people don't deserve to be parents.

To think your boss needs to pay for it Is entitlement thinking.

It is actually "modern thinking. More than 120 nations have paid family leave.


It was modern thinking that eliminated slavery, indentured servitude, and created a minimum wage.

On Pete, it was my understanding he did negotiate that. You said people can negotiate it, so what is your hangup. Pete says I'll take the job but I need off, his boss says OK, and you are mad? So in other words, you don't really mean it should be negotiated.
 
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If only people who could afford to raise a child with serious medical conditions ever had children our birthrate would be far lower than it is today. And it already is too damn low for economic growth. Most poor people can't afford to buy that type of insurance when they have trouble paying rent and buying food. But then you have a great solution, poor people don't deserve to be parents.



It is actually "modern thinking. More than 120 nations have paid family leave.


It was modern thinking that eliminated slavery, indentured servitude, and created a minimum wage.

On Pete, it was my understanding he did negotiate that. You said people can negotiate it, so what is your hangup. Pete says I'll take the job but I need off, his boss says OK, and you are mad? So in other words, you don't really mean it should be negotiated.
Pete is a gov employee paid by taxpayers. He got permission from a 50 year gov ee.
No matter how you break it down you are expecting someone else to pay you for time you don't work. I'm against that as a mandate.
 
I was referencing the 1995 song 'Shoots and Ladders' by Korn. Duh. F---in boomer. :) ... or I'm just stupid.
2d0151eb6d511c156c5a3bc032094362d996a44a.gifv


If you're referencing songs from the mid 90's, I hate to break it to you but we're moving ever closer to Boomertown. Something something stones and glass houses.
 
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2d0151eb6d511c156c5a3bc032094362d996a44a.gifv


If you're referencing songs from the mid 90's, I hate to break it to you but we're moving ever closer to Boomertown. Something something stones and glass houses.
Boomers are 60+. I'm on the Gen X-Millennial cusp(40). 90s music is ours. You gods damn boomers can go listen to Alabama and the Doobie brothers while smoking your shitty ditch weed.

However... Korn may be the poorest example of my generations music.
 
Boomers are 60+. I'm on the Gen X-Millennial cusp(40). 90s music is ours. You gods damn boomers can go listen to Alabama and the Doobie brothers while smoking your shitty ditch weed.

However... Korn may be the poorest example of my generations music.
Haha, Gen X checking in. That boomer horizon will continue to get bigger.....and bigger.

And yes, 90's music is currently undefeated.
 
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I have an aversion to Billy Joel that borders on the Dude's hatred of the f*cking Eagles, man.
You may be right, I may be crazy. Oh, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for. Turn out the light, don't try to save me. You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right.
 
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On guessing the identity of the leaker, we also need to take into account that this draft opinion was written in FEBRUARY. If some justice or well-placed clerk thought that people should know about this ASAP, I'd think it would not have been sat on for 2-3 months. More likely, others down the chain caught wind of this and one low-ranking staffer tried & tried and finally found a way to get a copy.
 
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On guessing the identity of the leaker, we also need to take into account that this draft opinion was written in FEBRUARY. If some justice or well-placed clerk thought that people should know about this ASAP, I'd think it would not have been sat on for 2-3 months. More likely, others down the chain caught wind of this and one low-ranking staffer tried & tried and finally found a way to get a copy.
Good point, I wonder what version they are up to today?
 
On guessing the identity of the leaker, we also need to take into account that this draft opinion was written in FEBRUARY. If some justice or well-placed clerk thought that people should know about this ASAP, I'd think it would not have been sat on for 2-3 months. More likely, others down the chain caught wind of this and one low-ranking staffer tried & tried and finally found a way to get a copy.
Or Politico had it for a while but was working to verify it.
 
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We didn't start the fire. It was always burning, since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire.
No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it.
Congratulations, you've found the one Billy Joel song I can stand if only for sentimental reasons related to the ultimate "what if" girl from my past.

Of course, Facebook answered that question for me many years later. I missed out on nothing it seems which is reassuring.
 
Congratulations, you've found the one Billy Joel song I can stand if only for sentimental reasons related to the ultimate "what if" girl from my past.

Of course, Facebook answered that question for me many years later. I missed out on nothing it seems which is reassuring.
What if. Mhmm. Want me to answer for you?
 
You have to explain how it’s not included in the right to privacy which is explicitly enumerated. There are many rights that are not explicitly enumerated as such in the constitution.
A right to "Privacy" explicitly enumerated in the Constitution? Could you cite that provision, please?
 
The Ninth Amendment states that the "enumeration of certain rights" in the Bill of Rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." The meaning of the Ninth Amendment is elusive, but many justices have interpreted the Ninth Amendment as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.

Beginning as early as 1923 and continuing up to today, the Supreme Court has broadly read the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee a fairly broad right of privacy that has come to encompass decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment.

Is it "explicitly enumerated"? Arguably, no. Is it a resonable interpretation, even bowing to some originalist's viewpoints? Yes.
 
The Ninth Amendment states that the "enumeration of certain rights" in the Bill of Rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." The meaning of the Ninth Amendment is elusive, but many justices have interpreted the Ninth Amendment as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.

Beginning as early as 1923 and continuing up to today, the Supreme Court has broadly read the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee a fairly broad right of privacy that has come to encompass decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment.

Is it "explicitly enumerated"? Arguably, no. Is it a resonable interpretation, even bowing to some originalist's viewpoints? Yes.

I find the idea that there is no privacy in the Constitution troubling. It is a way of saying, "yes, the government has power to spy on you and force you to 'X' so long as it isn't covered by the Constitution". Is that really what we want? I argued a lot for vaccinations, I never argued the government could force you to have one except as a condition for specific employment. Nowhere does the Constitution comment on vaccinations, therefore a government is perfectly acceptable to our non-civil libertarians.

And if a government can spy on us in new ways that we don't know to outlaw, that's perfectly ok?
 
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