Nothing new here, but certainly will upset many.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...-john-wooden-ucla-bruins-recruiting-practices
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...-john-wooden-ucla-bruins-recruiting-practices
Knight Criticizes the Wizard
- Thread starter larlane
- Start date
Wooden allowed cheating as early as 1964. He knew what was going on. His former players said so. His legacy is tarnished to say the least.
Wooden was a huge cheater, but Bob Knight continues to be a gigantic hypocrite, so he should probably shut up.
“Guiding light?” No sport should ever be the guiding light of a University, whatever the hell that means. Also, I love the thick irony of him ranting and cursing at people 40 years younger than him, in order to “teach” them how not to address people.
John Wooden was never a friend of IU anything and it showed with his distain for Knight's success at IU. Wooden had to cheat to win. Knight played by the rules and Wooden knew it.
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I've never gotten why many, NCAA included, can't accept the fact that Wooden was dirty as hell.
Oh, it's because John Wooden and UCLA winning all those banners is such a feel good story already written and read. No one likes follow up disclaimers.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
How exactly is Knight a hypocrite? As far as recruiting goes Knight was above board.
Personally I think his hatred for IU today shows his immaturity as a person. People fired him, not the University or the fans. To trash everyone is childish.
I'm glad he did the interview though, I'm sure it gave the kids in the neighborhood a break from some senile old man yelling at them to get off his lawn.
I'm glad he did the interview though, I'm sure it gave the kids in the neighborhood a break from some senile old man yelling at them to get off his lawn.
Perhaps in the way he treats people? Unless you kiss his ass, you’re worthless to him. He needs to shut up.
I don’t think anyone argues that he was above board when it came to recruiting, etc.
No, Indiana University hired and fired him via their people in control at the time. People come and go but the university doesn't. One hundred years from now it will still be said that Indiana University fired their Hall of Fame coach. To think that he trashes everyone is childish thought. He has a bone to pick with the institution that allowed his firing to happen, not the current administrators who weren't involved in the decision to fire him or fans past and present.
Sam Gilbert is definitely a stain on UCLA. But Wooden was an outstanding coach and an educator. and a gentleman. And his players thought the world of him as a coach and as a mentor. They all had incredible loyalty and respect for him until the end of his life. So there is definitely a paradox with Wooden. In my mind the good far outweighs the bad.
There was a HBO Special on Sam Gilbert illegally recruiting UCLA players while Wooden was coaching there and winning national championships. And former UCLA players admitting that Sam paid for everything for them. Surprised all of UCLA'$ titles have not been stripped when Sam Gilbert was paying players to go to UCLA. And Wooden kicked out ofb the Hall of Fame. Wooden should have the Pete Rose / Barry Bonds treatment.
Some people get free passes in life. Wooden was one of them, as does Hillary Clinton, it appears. In my mind the good far outweighs the bad regarding Bob Knight, but like Wooden it depends on who you ask. I think cheating while winning is worse than having an obnoxious personality while winning honestly, hence I don't like Wooden and I like Knight.
Someone referred to BKs comments here as controversial. Hess comments were not controversial at all, they were tame compared to what many others have said.
We all know what Knight's reaction would be to other's who might attempt to correct his bad behavior: he would tell them to kiss his ass, assault them, etc. Yet, he has no problem grabbing a freshman by the arm and "correcting" his behavior. He flips out when somebody calls him by his last name, but has no problem cussing out or insulting others.
Knight said he should have walked away from the game long before 2000, and his record and attitude agrees with this. However, he gets angry at IU for having the stones to do what he wouldn't do? It isn't IU's fault that Knight got old, didn't give a crap anymore, didn't have an exit strategy, and didn't have the stones to walk.
Knight is irrationally angry, holds people to a standard that he won't hold himself to, and incredibly stubborn, and he isn't changing: what a shame.
For all of his faults, Knight won at Indiana because of who he was and his tenacious and very personal drive to do things his way.
There is nothing new in the story.
There is nothing new in the story.
"Knight's way" worked until about 1994. Then, he stopped adapting and giving a crap. He has been on a downward spiral ever since. "Knight's way" hasn't don't much for him as a coach or as a person for a long time.
"I kiss no man's ass!" is an infamous line of his that says it all. When he was winning big, only non-IU fans hated his personality. Even non IU graduates became fans of IU basketball because of Bob Knight's charismatic personality. When times started to change...players, parents, younger IU fans coming of age, people started to question his ways and even some of IU's own fan base became disenchanted, outspoken and divided. It seems like it's been divided ever since. Bob Knight was tough on his players back when parents were tougher on their kids, making their kids tougher on themselves. Those in the newer generation who weren't used to his traditional teaching methods tended to weed themselves out and blamed it on Knight when they left while claiming their "rights" were violated. Donald Trump always reminds me of Bob Knight in that his glibness, often crass personality and extreme success in life make him an easy man to hate. When the hated are outspoken and not afraid to say what they think, the haters become just as good at it. Thank you, Bob, for always being who you are...true to your own beliefs and never succumbing to being someone others think you should be. It's a softer world we live in now, but you'll always be remembered for the way it used
to be, back when your teaching methods hung an NCAA Championship banner every 4-5 years.
by "softer" you mean "we've realized that yelling and belittling are scientifically proven to be crappy ways to teach kids" lol. it's how you but i catch your drift. as lou reed said, you know, those were different times.
we tend to think his anger kept the kids sharp, i've thought that many times, but i now wonder if Bob wasn't winning despite the outbursts. seems like great players and knowledge of the game are the true common denominators of great coaches.
again, i liked the yelling but we may be confusing tenacity with much deeper issues. being grittier than most doesn't mean you have to berate everyone. i wonder if being an a-hole didn't cost Bobby way more championships than it earned him.
VanPastorMan
Hall of Famer
Of course I agree Knight has flaws in his personality. It was the use of the word hypocrite that confused me. To be a hypocrite is to say one thing and do another or to believe something privately while taking the opposite position in public. I didn't see where Knight had been hypocritical in his assessment of Wooden's dealing with Sam Gilbert.
Every generation is softer than the last one. That's why no civilization lasts forever. They get softer. They've had life easier and the kids today grow up being doted upon more than they used to. A teacher isn't allowed to touch a kid in school today out of fear of a kid's dad getting upset and threatening to call his attorney. "Don't you try and tell my son what to do!" I had a father yell at me when I had to reprimand his son for acting out of control (a total brat) in a dental chair. I was the dentist and my response was, "Well, someone needs to!" It didn't used to be that way. Knight's military type discipline took a special kind of kid to put up with it. Sometimes the kid was hesitant to play for him but his dad knew that was the place for his kid so he went there. Fewer parents today would encourage their son to play for this type of temperament. I must say, Knight's teams were always a tough out for the opponent. It's because his players were well disciplined, not so much that they had superior talent. IU players haven't been the same since he left. We've struggled like never before since Knight.
Seem a milder version of a certain orange twit lately garnering a lot of press.
Biggest difference between Knight and Trump: Both are assholes, but only one was competent to do the job he was tasked with. Sadly, it was the one whose job didn't directly impact the well-being of an entire nation.
Everyone thinks but some people are afraid to say what they think. Knight and Trump aren't in that category. You got tired of Knight being a bully when he stopped winning big and you started believing all the negative stories the media was writing about him. You got tired of Trump being a bully when the opposition party elected him President of the United States. That's just my guess because I think I know how it works and I'm not afraid to say it. That's why I still support both of them.
Then he should clarify his issues are not with the fans, but that would take someone with compassion and a temperament above that of a toddler.
Actually, I just read a recent interview (with Keady) and Knight said it was the IU administration with which he has a bone to pick. So yes, he has clarified with the fans the true issue of malcontent. Why is that such a difficult thing for fans like you to get over?
RMK is a petty, bitter old man who foolishly thinks he did nothing wrong. Glad he won’t be a part of IU ever again. He’s an idiot.
eh -- no offense, but that's a pretty lazy view on history. civilizations fall for tons of reasons (leaders like we have now would be one of them). that each generation gets "softer" doesn't really explain it. lol. along those lines of thinking, every generation since the stone age has got softer but humans have become more successful? what gives?
i'd argue that kids are much tougher today than ever. they are asked to process more adult situations than we ever did. they have to process and figure out an insanely complicated world all while spending less time with their parents.
teachers aren't allowed to beat kids because beating kids doesn't work. lol. so much evidence for this. You've probably heard of BF Skinner -- incentives work; disincentives don't. Yelling at and beating kids only raises scared kids who you are much more likely to yell at and beat other people. i'm glad we have a legal system to protect against abuse.
see, you are confusing discipline with anger and control. keeping your cool and being consistent with a kid having a tantrum works. freaking out like bobby used to does not. we know this because most great coaches weren't bullies like ol Bobby. lol.
again, Knight didn't win because he was an a-hole. he won despite it.
Dim, simplistic and dumb. Everyone doesn't "think" ( at least in any way that involves or relies upon logic and reason) - many people simply feel rather or more so than "think" and you appear to be one of them. Your support for assholes is your own affair but don't presume to rationalize it by denigrating the moral or intellectual character of others. Knight's and Trump's own words were more than sufficient to certify them as damaged goods long before the media began reporting them as such.
Yep, and IU has been struggling to obtain greatness ever since the "idiot" left. SAD he won't be part of IU basketball ever again. Bob's years were the funnest years of all and I've been following IU basketball religiously since the very tail end of Coach McCracken. As a 60+ year follower of IU basketball I will always be thankful I was able to witness 29 years of coaching excellence, compliments of "The General".
Your definition of "think" is not as general as the "think" I had in mind. I don't mind an obnoxious asshole if that is what it takes to get the job done. It worked for Bob as evidenced by multiple Big Ten Championships and 3 NCCA Championship banners. With Trump, it remains to be seen and he needs more time, but so far/so good if you voted Republican. If you voted for Hillary...tsk, tsk, the bitterness!
"Remains to be seen"? If it was only a matter of being an asshole that would be one thing, but deceitful, ignorant, self-serving and dangerous are entirely something else. No idea what "job" you refer to that you think needs to get done but if you're still up in the air about his character, ambitions and abilities there's nothing to discuss. Go back to planning your We Nuked Korea party so you can christen America's 'return to greatness'. I'm out.
Each generation (in recent history) has had it easier than the previous one. I think of what my parents went through...the Great Depression and WW II. My generation was weaker because we had life pretty damn good unless you're an utter moron. Kids our more spoiled today, just as my generation was more spoiled than my folk's generation.
Technology is what has made humans more successful, not more hardship. Kids are tougher than ever today? So what is up with the colleges having "safe places" serving hot chocolate and what-not to comfort them after Hillary was upset in the Presidential election? Is that a result of the insanely complicated world you speak of that requires college's to coddle the "snowflakes" while they process things because their parents have less time to do it? Yeah, you sound like you're really being prepared to tackle more "adult" situations. Trying to "process and figure out the insanely complicated world"? Christ, you can find every answer to every possible question by Googling. You don't spend as much time with your parents because your heads are buried in your cellphones living in a trance playing with video games, Snapchat and Facebook. You poor babies having to figure out life alone!
Teachers didn't beat kids such that they came home with bruises and black eyes. We're talking about nun's raking a ruler over the outstretched hands of the class brat. Any child of that generation will tell you it worked. From a personal standpoint, my dad made me drop my drawers and whipped my legs with his belt until I danced and the welts formed. After that, whenever I mouthed off all he had to do was show me that he was touching his belt buckle and I straightened up real quick. If a kid had that done to him today, social services would come knocking at the door three days after he received an attorney's letter.
Knight did some things he regretted, but his good works...not just for players, but for people in general, far outweighs the negative that brings complaints from detractors of authoritarian leaders. To not love what Bob Knight did for IU is to not having truly known him. From your words, one can assume you are of the younger generation, the generation that really didn't know him, the generation that doesn't know as much as they think they do. Good luck there, young Fellah. Keep fighting the good fight and always pray for Bernie!
Idiotic behavior that was commonplace with RMK was never justified by winning, just as cheating was and is never justified by winning. RMK has no one but himself to blame for his bitterness and separation from IU, a fate he richly deserved.
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