The incident seems pretty credible to me. Remember that the other guy who is there with Kavanaugh is Mark Judge who literally wrote a book on his alcohol and drug induced high school debaucheries. Let's suppose the allegations are true...do they matter to you?
Kavanaugh
- Thread starter twenty02
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Yep. He was stupid. Could have played the I was 17 and drunk as a skunk card. Sometimes the smart people aren't really that smart.
He better be damn sure he didn't do it then.
Let’s suppose reality. It’s not possible to know if they are true at this point, but you believe it anyway.
I have no thoughts on Kavanagh in general, but they should matter to anyone looking at it objectively. That being said, if the notes about her bringing this up in therapy sessions in 2012 were true, why didn't she go forward then? To have this come out post-nomination, particularly after Feinstein sat on it for over a month, just wreaks of politicization. If the victim is truly a victim, she deserves sympathy. She won't get much because of the way this came out, however. Maybe that's wrong, but it creates doubts for reasoning.
Makes sense if you consider that (a) there was a presidential election at the time, (b) SCOTUS nominations have been a primary part of the GOP campaigns since at least, and (c) Kavanaugh was already an appeals court judge and likely considered to be a potential SCOTUS nominee by that time.
It does? What does it say? You don’t like stereotyping people by where they live, by any chance?
I wish there were more women here when we get to threads like this. Sometimes I feel like I’m screaming into an abyss. I’ve been very careful not to even form an opinion on this, especially when it was anonymous. The therapist having the notes changes things for me.
Let’s stay in the present. I assume you think all 19 of Trump’s accusers were lying?
LOL. Of course we could get a much better idea of whether the allegation was true by investigating. I expect we are going to learn a great deal more about all this in any event.
If you believed the allegations were true would you change your view on whether he should be confirmed?
I can see her not coming out with it in 2012, because he was prominent, but not a national figure. I think the time all of this should have come out was as soon as he was nominated.
I suspect she naively thought that telling Feinstein this in confidence might somehow result in DF somehow being able to torpedo the nomination without Ford having to reveal herself.
Okay, how about this present? Are you taking up the case for Karen Monohan ex girlfriend of Keith Ellison. You know the guy who beat the hell out of her and dragged her around by the hair?
If the therapist notes were contemporaneous in time with the alleged incident I would be far more inclined to agree with you. 30 years later . . . I'm not persuaded. By then Kavanaugh was a public figure, not just another kid . . . it's a little too convenient to accept at face value. I'd need a good bit more corroborative evidence to be persuaded.
I answered you. Given what I know at this point I find the allegation credible. If I were a supporter for Kavanaugh I would be asking for more information. My guess is that if K were a Democrat we would be looking a new nominee. You didn't answer my question though.
So you’re saying it’s true as far as you’re concerned and that Democrats, being the fine upstanding guardians of America’s integrity and character (they obviously are far better people than Republicans), would dump him over this. Yeah, right.
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It’s still really hard for me to come to a conclusion on this. Have talked about it with quite a few women. And most of us have all been way too drunk at parties and don’t remember exactly what happened. But I’d remember if someone put their hand over my mouth . The fact that the other guy jumped on top of them is odd to me though. And honestly, every single woman would act differently. Some people would be traumatized and some wouldn’t. Honestly think I probably wouldn’t , but I would have walked out and told everyone about it, that’s for sure. But I know women who have been raped and didn’t tell people for years about it. The fact that she discussed it in therapy years later leads me to believe it was pretty serious, at least to her. But I’m still not absolutely positive I would find it disqualification for Kavanaugh. Without being in that room, it’s hard to tell one way or another. And her life is about to become hell.
Oh is he up for Supreme? And if you’ve read, I’m not taking up the case for anyone.
Here is precisely what I am saying. I am saying that I find the allegations believable. I am saying the Democrats would drop a nominee for the SC in similar circumstances. The Republicans have climbed into bed with an utter cretin in Trump. As such they are no longer guardians of America's integrity and character as they arguably have been in the past.
If this incident happened remotely like she said it did, it's a disqualification not because of the incident but because he flat-out denied it now.
At least SC judges aren't supposed to lie.
Wild speculation: Judge (the other guy) saw things were getting out of hand and "jumped on them" to turn it into more of a drunken wrestling match than an attempted rape and essentially break it up.
And it would take more than this for me to believe he should be dumped. Memories are tricky things. I vividly remember something that happened early in our marriage (just passed 29 years) that was significant to me and humorous. So humorous I’ve probably told the story to friends a dozen times. I was telling the story to a couple mutual friends that we’ve known for 27 years and my wife says, “I don’t remember that!” It never occurred to me that she wouldn’t. At least she said, “I guess that happened, I just don’t remember it” so I could finish the story. It’s still funny. Of course my memory on this one is the right one.
I’d need some contemporaneous evidence that something along these lines happened and at least some evidence that this was more than a one time incident (whatever it actually was) to change my mind on his confirmation.
I call BS. Absolute and total BS. Democrats are not guardians of character and integrity in any way whatsoever.
I was thinking something along those lines...at any event according to her account Judge's intervention had that effect.
You seem to think credible (believable) means that Att believes it. That's not what credible means.
There are only 9 SC judges at one time under our current make-up and they're appointed for life. There are plenty of candidates so why appoint one if there's some reason to doubt the candidate's qualification. Our nine judges should be beyond reproach.
Call denied. There are very few Republicans in Congress guarding the character and integrity of our nation TODAY. The voters of this nation got duped by a used-car salesman and only Democrats, by and large, are demanding a course correction.
If Judge takes his 12 Step recovery seriously, he's got a 9th Step opportunity here. If he recalls there being an incident, I'd believe him.
Edit to add, referring to bolded: Does he get a pass on the first one?
And if he says he didn’t remember it at all, it won’t change the minds of those that already believe it.
I bet a lot of us guys are hoping that our teenage make out sessions weren’t remembered differently than we remember them - those we remember.
So, did the humorous story involve you forcing her onto a bed against her will, turning up the music, and putting your hand over her mouth as you groped her and tried to forcibly take off her one-piece bathing suit? No?
Your story is irrelevant.
I call cheap cynicism. Both parties, prior to Trump, have been guardians of American character and integrity over the years. Now with Trump one party has decided to repudiate those values.
It’s not at all irrelevant. It’s about memories, even of significant events, differ. This isn’t at all controversial and has been discussed here on more than one occasion concerning the memories of eye witnesses to crimes. You should know people have been falsely accused, convicted and sent to prison based on the testimony of eye witnesses that have inaccurate memories. They weren’t usually lying, they were just wrong.
Sounds like Ford was a little more than an "eyewitness", if her story is true. But, good try at trivialization.
I am one of those guys, and I remember mine. I doubt I could get appointed to the zoning board.
There's a continuum of bad teenage behavior, and at some point there's a line that gets crossed. That line has moved over the years. That's what's so difficult about this situation. As much as I'd like to see Kavanaugh's nomination go up in flames, I can't bring myself to apply today's behavioral norms to bear on what happened over 30 years ago (assuming the account is accurate). On the other hand, I also think he should own up to it (again, assuming the account is accurate). Flat out lying about it would be disqualifying, IMO.
Kavanaugh was best pals at that time with a guy who literally wrote a book about how he was an alcoholic druggy doing as much debauchery as he could get away with during that time. What the woman describes is not a "teenage make out session".
Right. And one article I read states that the therapist notes don't match the story with regards to the number of participants. So the "therapist wrote it down wrong." Obviously.
Maybe. Maybe not. As Sope mentioned above a retelling of this incident closer to the occurrence would carry a lot more weight with me than a 30 year old teenage memory in a therapy session. Especially when it (as of now) is seemingly backed up by no one whatsoever. Not this incident. Not any further accusations of improper conduct.
I don't really care about Kavanaugh. I'm no court junkie and I'd never heard of the guy until the last year or so. But I do find myself uncomfortable with the notion that an isolated and unsubstantiated story such as this can derail someone. If that's so, who would be safe? And perhaps more importantly, who would take the chance at putting themselves in a position to have their teenage books allowed to ruin them 4 decades later based on one person's claims?
I don't know what happened, if anything. But regardless of the R or D, or L or C, I want a little more. Maybe I've seen too many House of Cards episodes.
K didn't say he doesn't remember. He said it never happened. Key difference, especially for someone who was hardly forthcoming about other things he said.
Plus, another key element to your argument that is specious -- the hypothetical that we've all done something that could be mis-remembered or whatever. I'll call BS on that. There's a reason most of us don't get accused.
I know surgeons who have never been sued in four decades of practice.
