Israel under attack from Hamas
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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I know there were Jews there before, but the question here is why do some people view Israel as a European colonial encroachment into the Levant? And the answer is because it is a very Western-style nation that was founded largely by European Jews who emigrated to the region in the early 20th Century. You might not like the conclusion, but that's the reason people come to it, and you can't just wish it away.
That wouldn't be good. Iran playing a dangerous game. I doubt they are truly that stupid. But we shall see.
When Iran retaliated for Trumps hit on Gen. Qasem Soleimani, they targeted the missiles to hit near American bases but not for direct hits. Supposedly this was deliberate because the missiles were very precise. Some reporting indicated this was previously arranged with the Trump administration ,and Trump agreed not to escalate.
So yeah, Iran was not reckless or stupid with Trump. They must know Israel would escalate.
That was an initial assessment and the message that Trump wanted to put forward, but like most initial assessments and Trump messages they weren't quite right. Assessments in the following weeks were that they did not deliberately miss and dozens of personnel were seriously injured. One of the targets was sleeping quarters and the attack was about 0130 in the morning. That's not a target to hit if you're trying to avoid casualties. Also, their ballistic missiles shouldn't be described as precise. They're fairly accurate and can hit within 50 meters. They're much more accurate than 10-20 years ago, but not up to the precision of our missiles. Not even close to as accurate as our cruise missiles are. They are accurately described as "precise."
Uncomfortable Lessons: Reassessing Iran’s Missile Attack
The audacity of Iran’s missile attack last month against U.S. troops shows deterrence in the region has eroded to a new low.
But in this context, how does someone deliberate with those that believe Israel is the evil result of European Colonialism?
It was a rhetorical question - the short answer is, you can't.
None of what you posted is wrong, but the idea that someone uses that as their argument means they are ignoring and refusing to acknowledge or believe any of the counterpoints (Jews existed in Palestine before Islam was founded, Jews were fleeing oppression in Europe, Muslims have routinely oppressed Jews and Christians throughout history, Muslims have a long history of colonialism and oppression, etc.).
The problem is - if someone is so focused on the cause of the conflict, which predates most that are living in the world, they aren't concerned about a real solution.
the cause of the conflict is ongoing. Israel forcibly settles land currently occupied by Palestinians with its own citizens. the real solution is to stop this. would love to hear a counterpoint as to why it continues.
still don't get the absolute statements about Muslims though and what it justifies. Yes, Muslims have routinely oppressed Jews and Christians throughout history. Christians have also routinely oppressed Jews and Muslims throughout history. Jews have oppressed Muslims and Christians at different times in history. all of these are true statements. is the point that humans can be awful? if so, I agree. peoples in the ME have historically oppressed other peoples in the ME. at least maybe we can agree on that.
I'm less interested in the Steves and Joes and more interested in the Xs and Os. Is Israel a surrogate colony of the west? doesn't matter. is Israel itself the colonial power? doesn't matter. are we even discussing actual textbook colonialism? doesn't matter but I think we can fairly assess that Israel/ Palestine share some characteristics of a colonial relationship.
- Israel, even when not at war, controls the movement of Palestinians
- Israel controls the issuance of Palestinian national IDs
- Israel alone controls the borders between itself and Gaza/ West Bank
- Israel takes resources (land) from Palestinians
- Israel denies Palestinians the ability to interact with the international community, economically and politcally
They shouldn’t have ever started the settlement expansion. But, the question is, so you actually believe if they stopped (which I and the majority of Israelis are in favor of) settlements, the Palestinians would become peaceful and accepting of their circumstances?
I even acknowledge they have a right to be miffed about the whole thing. But their terrorist attitudes and support for death is what makes them medieval. Even when Israel kills a bunch of innocent Gazans, nobody celebrates in the streets.
Hell, even when they are taking out Hamas commanders, nobody is out parading around and cheering. Palestinians were visibly celebrating a mass murder of thousands of people, some of them not even Jewish and several not even Israeli.
Until that type of mentality stops, Israel isn’t going to give Palestinians equal rights. They cannot, for obvious safety reasons. That’s where this differs from the traditional version of Colonialism. That being said, I’m early into my podcast episode on the Celtic Holocaust - so there could be other examples of similar contexts .
the rhetoric is savage and jarring, no doubt. but the counterpoint might be that Israel also uses crazy language in its official statements. totally unacceptable from a developed, western POV. but notice non-ME muslims states don't use that kind of language either. something about that place, man o man...
I do believe things would get better if expansion stopped. remove casus bellum. we know things like border integrity and freedom of movement are fundamental to humans. take them away and you create conditions of insecurity and grievance. just more fodder for terrorists.
ya, let us know what you learn. I should check that out. I think there are some similarities in these situations. the British convinced the world for centuries that the Irish were inherently violent and they gathered plenty of evidence to back that up but peace only came after they loosened their grip.
PS just remembered this. the chants may go one ever after the bullets stop. lol
You can’t wish it away, but you can wish it to irrelevance. They way forward is not to keep alive history, but to creates better future. Intel recently committed to a new chip plant in Israel. That would never happen in Islamic controlled areas. I don’t know how we convince Palestinians that true coexistence leads to a better future, but that should be the objective.
You're right about all that, too. Sorry, but people are being flatly dismissive of what I was talking about. I unfairly lumped you in.
What are the objectives of Palestinians, or really Hamas, who control the populace, & what conditions would have to be met for them to consider victory & retreat to a life of peace & independence?
You would be wrong. The settlements in Gaza were dismantled by the Israelis and they forcibly removed settlers from Gaza. Palestinians were given some freedom of movement, many of the attackers in October were Palestinians who worked for Israelis.
The fact of the matter is that you are completely incorrect that loosening of anything on the Israeli side leads to better behavior on the Palestinian side. You can't point to any example where that has occurred. After Arafat was offered 97% of what the Palestinians wanted (including their own state) he rejected the offer and started a terror campaign. The Israelis withdrew from Gaza and left infrastructure like greenhouses in place for the Palestinians and they elected Hamas, destroyed the infrastructure, and fought the Israelis.
I am the bad guy because I am the only one who will state the obvious. The Israelis control the territory, they control it because their neighbors repeatedly attacked them and lost. They can't live with each other. So the best course of action is to boot the Muslims to a Muslim country and be done with it. That is what happened to ethnic Germans after WW2 and in the long run it was better for them and the places they lived in because of the animosity caused by the war.
Would you guys freakin' take a chill pill over this Iran/ Israel tension. Biden said "Don't" again.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
The Germans had a place to go. Germany had just lost a war (and a lot of citizens), so not only did Germany have room for the German refugees, they also had no choice in the matter.
Where do you propose we ship the Gazans off to, and what do we do when that country inevitably says, "No thanks?"
lmao
Jordan and Egypt are 'still around'.
If they say 'no thanks', then it's not Israel's problem.
The answer is for the Egyptian and Jordanian refugees, aka Palestinians, to renounce violence and stop fighting and being terrorists.
It's not that difficult to understand what the problem is here.
You didn't answer. You said it's time to kick the Palestinians out of Gaza. So where do they go? Jordan and Egypt have already said they don't want them. So what's your answer?
I told you my answer. You just don't agree with it.
I never said kick them out of Gaza. But if that's the effect of them waging war on Israel, then so be it. Let the UN deal with them in refugee camps if their own countries won't take them. Or maybe you could sponsor a Palestinian family and bring them to stay at your house.
I'm past the point of caring about a population that celebrates 10/7.
Sorry thought you were Crazy. Crazy said it's time to kick them out, which is where this post came from.
I wouldn't be surprised if aircraft are on their way to Tehran right now.
If it takes hours for the drones to get there, Israel better have air assets in the air now.
It is time for the US to tell the Israelis to do whatever you feel is necessary, we don't give a shit anymore.
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