You probably don't use it right before "York Times."
Israel under attack from Hamas
- Thread starter JamieDimonsBalls
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Huh? Of course they are. Orientalism would certainly draw parallels between the colonization of North America and the formation of Israel.
Just short of $400 Billion American dollars given to the Zionist state since 1946.
12-14 $Trillion poured into the War Machine since 9/11..
Over $1Trillion annual War Machine budget (that is admitted,)
All borrowed.
$34Trillion debt.
Time for a reckoning.
If Arafat had agreed they could have a Palestinian state consisting of 97 percent of Gaza and the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/11/think-again-yasir-arafat/
Clash of culture my ass. The lack of moral and political clarity shown by the Biden administration is stunning. We have the chance right now to change direction in the ME with Jewish surrogates. All we need to do is make clear that no more rockets, no more tunnels, no more teaching Jewish hate, and we will help reconstitute Gaza.
Hamas are brutal savages. We must not only admit that to ourselves, Biden must publicly say it to the world and start being serious with Iran. To hell with Michigan’s electoral votes. This is an inflection point and Biden has FUBARED it.
Oh FFS, will you please keep your partisan hackery bullshit to yourself? Can you just shut off you spigot for one goddamn minute? We're not talking about Biden. We're not making this a Dem-vs-Repub thing. We're having a serious conversation. Try being an adult for once. God knows you're old enough you should know how to do it by now.
Only about 30% of Israeli Jews are of European descent. That doesn’t make any sense.
It was a lot closer to 100% when Israel was founded; most ME and African Jews emigrated later. And, from an Arab viewpoint, Israel was very much a creation of the British government, as well.
Colonialism? If you start a war and lose, you might be forced to cede some territory.
Don't go to war with Israel, don't lose land.
Apparently some didn't learn that lesson in 1967.
Don't go to war with Israel, don't lose land.
Apparently some didn't learn that lesson in 1967.
Any serious conversation about Israel and Hamas must include Biden’s influence on the ongoing war. Your dismissal and avoidance of Biden’s role probably stems from his actions before the war and during the war being inexplicable if not totally indefensible. Our conditions publicly imposed on Israel are the dumbest possible action we can take if we hope to have all this death and destruction have a positive impact. Meanwhile, Biden hadn’t imposed one single condition on Hamas regarding giving up its rockets, tunnels, arms and Jew hating public education in exchange for our benevolence.
If you don’t want to defend Biden’s policy fine. But his policies are very relevant to this subject.
This is patently false and proof that my complaint against you is accurate. There are a billion things to talk about regarding Israel/Hamas, and only a handful of them require reference to Biden. Brad and I were talking about a particular anti-Zionist philosophy that literally predates Biden's birth, much less his presidency.
Right. All Israeli history with its neighbors exploded on October 7. New and more history is being made in real time like it hasn’t been for more than a generation. Biden is a player and he is screwing it up.
IT DOESN'T MATTER. We were talking about something else, and you couldn't help yourself but to try to twist it back into Biden. You're obsessed. You have an illness. Give it a break, for your own well-being.
Sooner or later you always get back to patronizing BS
Once again, this thread is not about me. You can’t, or won’t, defend Biden, I get that. But observing he FUBARED. Gaza, and continues to do that is today’s reality, not 1000-year-old history.
Biden isn't going to go against his base. And his base is ate up with 'colonialism' and whatever other fashionable buzzword they can come up with that idolizes victimization.
I was asking for enlightenment on the current theories of colonialization and how it was being interpreted to include Israel. I need to read up on those articles manichi and I posted back and forth, but don't have access to either.
From what I can tell, "settler colonialism" is the newer version of all this. Can't wait to figure out which evil colonial empire is symbolized by the Great White Whale.
Good read.
I get the artificial "umbilical cord" those damn kids are imagining between Israel/ Palestine, the US/ Native Tribes, and every other situation in which the strong are tussling with the weak. In time they'll hopefully learn that bit about history rhyming, not repeating.
I agree that turning an idea like "Settler Colonialism" into a field of study invites polarization. but I disagree that history is too complicated to find parallels or that something that imagines upending the current world order can't be taken seriously, even just in theory. why have eggheads if you aren't going to use them?
Best part:
"No one now holds a monopoly on pain. For a Palestinian family in 1948 to have lost a treasured family home, a farm, a business was a grievous wound. Nor can the horrors of October 7 justify the continuing Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the deadly vigilante violence with which Israeli settlers there enforce their writ. Yet the answer to injustice won’t be found in slogans that wish away the existence of Israel or, for that matter, the United States."
now that you have me googling bullshit on a perfectly good night, found an interesting paper by a Yale egghead. yes, she presupposes that the "colonizer" is the antagonist but her conclusion has legs.
What Constitutes Non-Assimilatory Reconciliation?
Firstly, he argues for a critical reflection of the past that is not aimed at achieving consensus but at “exposing violent histories and their impact today to further mutual respect.”[108] Through this reflection, “past injustices” and their “present legacies” should be thoroughly investigated. In other words, the irreversibility and the continuation of settler-colonialism’s physical and cultural elimination policies should be clearly examined. This has the function of acting as a truth claim, exposing discarded elements of history that do not fit into the settler’s narrative. The second step is tightly linked to the first, and Verdeja terms it as “symbolic and material recognition”[109]. After examining these grievances, this stage involves acknowledging them. Through acknowledgment, one recognizes the moral worth of the indigenous community as their truth-claims are accepted into a narrative that was previously dominated by the settler community. This avoids the pitfalls of assimilation that still sees the indigenous community as inferior and in-need of forcible reintegration into wider society. The third stage of reconciliation is then allowing for previously-subjugated groups to participate meaningfully in the political process. He argues that such actions are necessary to move beyond “politically palatable”[110] expressions of remorse that do not substantially redistribute power in favour of the subjugated group.
Reconciliation In Settler-Colonial States: A Study Of The Political Apology - The Yale Review Of International Studies
Image Caption: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau apologizes to the First Nations, the indigenous people who, for over one hundred years of
yris.yira.org
acknowledge the grievances. sounds like a few couples therapy sessions I've been to....
as a citizen historian and anthropologist (lol) I keep coming back to the way polities have always used settlers/ pioneers to gain new lands. it's one of the oldest plays in the book. first, you move your settlers just across a disputed border or into disputed border lands or into conquered territory. next, you identify real and/ or imagined threats to their security. Lastly, you build up military infrastructure and political institutions to counter these threats and stabilize the region with an eye on the next disputed territory that's a bit further out. This is the play the Russians ran against Ukraine and Georgia. Basically the same play we ran against the Mexicans and native tribes. Israel does this every day in the West Bank. truly a story as old as time.
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fashionable buzzword? colonization and decolonization have dominated world politics for 500 years now. lol. ya, Biden wants to win Michigan, or wherever, but he didn't create division where there was none, however much he might try to play off it.
and get the fvck outta here with that victimization crap, Danc. what a lazy card to play. I see adults trying to have a non-political discussion in this thread about actual human beings (on both sides) locked in an interminable struggle. yet here you are trying to sum it all up with buzzwords. the irony.
Okay. The whole colonization thing really doesn’t apply. All parties can legitimately claim a historic attachment to the same ground. I think the Jews have the seniority edge, but that is arguable.
The other point involves just what is Palestine or the better question is who are Palestinians? I think that has a meaning not unlike “Hoosier”. It’s certainly not ethnic as goat suggested. “Palestinian” has more relevance today as a cudgel to oppose Jews and Israel.
In any event, all history about claims to ground blew up on October 7. We are now talking about organized civil society and savages. We can’t ignore this new paradigm and hope to make improvements. We also cannot ignore the outside influence of Iran and the Muslim Mullahs behind the current conflict.
What is magic about 1947? There was history of that area before 1947.
Btw, I haven’t seen Goat stake a position on the colonization rhetoric. He’s just trying to explain the theory and the arguments supporting it. That’s valuable and necessary to understand the Palestinian side of the conflict.
He might be leaning one way or the other, might have some intuitions, but he might not be certain in his own head.
Goat, do I have that right? Don’t want to speak for you but I think it would be helpful to avoid inevitable personal issues creeping in.
If the Palestinian side of the conflict relies on a misunderstanding of the concept of colonialism we should stop enabling their stupid.
I would suggest anticolonialist rhetoric is more about the liberal egghead side than the Palestinian side, but otherwise pretty spot on.
I agree. But it’s helpful to know how they think and what the misunderstanding is.
A Palestinian state has never been their objective. Killing Jews & eradicating Israel is their objective.
Half the countries in the Middle East were European creations. Why is it that Israel is bad for that fact but Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan (for instance) are not?
The evidence of the Jewish presence in Israel is evident every time someone picks up a shovel and digs a hole.
The Jews that founded Israel weren't local. They were from Europe, by and large. Some Americans, too. The Arab states were carved out by European powers, to be sure, but they were populated by locals. Big difference.
Jews were a minority in the British Mandate, but they were there.
Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Yes, there was a Jewish population in the region for centuries. I think they started moving back as soon as the Muslims conquered the area. They may have temporarily been kicked out again during the Crusades, but I'm not sure. Either way, they were a very small population before Zionism. When Israel was founded, most of the first Israeli citizens were born elsewhere.Jews were a minority in the British Mandate, but they were there.
Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
Thr Jews came from other areas because they were expelled from Israel in the past. Jews were the indigenous people.
Honestly all that is neither here nor there though. The Palestinians are never getting a state in the areas ruled or controlled by Israel.
