Is Woody gonna struggle to get ANY guards, yet again?

[Tammany Hall]

Ok so which college job was he trying to get? Is it possible that 66 year old millionaire didn’t really need a job anymore? Is it possible that IU struck out on other candidates so Woody was willing to coach his Alma mater to help rebuild the brand and make more appealing to the next candidate? Whether you believe it or not we are a severely damaged brand almost on the verge of no return. I still hope that the new approach in this new era can pay big dividends. Time will tell

Nonsense. Top-10 NIL, one of the top athletic dept budgets, and a top salary would get a lot of coaches besides Woody. Oh yea and you get to enjoy being at a basketball school.

Brand aside IU is still a program with a lot of resources.

Woody has not rebuilt a thing — year 3 he should be building something and instead things got much worse.

Dolson, Quinn, and whoever else made a mistake. Maybe he can salvage something next year.

 

[cshartle123]

And if I agree with you on all those points, IMO, it still doesn't point to him being a good coach. It is all about wins and losses and in his third year with a TERRIBLY constructed roster all most all his recruits, it was a shit show and didn't come close to making the tourney. I always said that Crean would have been gone MUCH earlier without landing Zeller and I am beginning to believe that TJD will turn out to be Woodson Zeller.

Not only the losses but just getting the crap kicked out of them. So many times IU has not even been competitive and not just to the big boys since they were swept by Nebraska (0-3) and 1-2 against PSU. I read but did not verify it, that in his last three years, Crean had 8 losses of 15 or more points, Archie had 12 in his last three years. In his first three years Woodson has 17 by my count SO... he has almost equaled the previous two coaches and they were both fired. Hmmmmm.

And if I don't agree with your reasons, I would say it is a stretch to include Phinisee seeing as how he transferred. JHS was more a finished project when he arrived and I REALLY doubt he would have gotten as much PT without X getting hurt. I will give you the bigs, they have developed nicely and if he could get Reneau not to be a vortex and throw the ball out like TJD did, that would be great.

I loved Mike as a player but that is TOTALLY irrelevant to the discussion at hand. He is no longer a player and HE is the one that took on this challenge and set the bar at championships and in three years, IU has not come close to even sniffing any kind of championship.

Last year was disappointing. I think we would have been five games better and in the tournament with Xavier. That said, it was also a rebuild of our front line. We lost TJD, Race, and Kopp. Woodson upgraded all of them in talent with Ware, Reneau, and Mgbako. Also, if you don’t give any credit to Woodson for JHS’s success then we aren’t going to see eye to eye about Woodson.

 

[Tammany Hall]

And if I agree with you on all those points, IMO, it still doesn't point to him being a good coach. It is all about wins and losses and in his third year with a TERRIBLY constructed roster all most all his recruits, it was a shit show and didn't come close to making the tourney. I always said that Crean would have been gone MUCH earlier without landing Zeller and I am beginning to believe that TJD will turn out to be Woodson Zeller.

Not only the losses but just getting the crap kicked out of them. So many times IU has not even been competitive and not just to the big boys since they were swept by Nebraska (0-3) and 1-2 against PSU. I read but did not verify it, that in his last three years, Crean had 8 losses of 15 or more points, Archie had 12 in his last three years. In his first three years Woodson has 17 by my count SO... he has almost equaled the previous two coaches and they were both fired. Hmmmmm.

And if I don't agree with your reasons, I would say it is a stretch to include Phinisee seeing as how he transferred. JHS was more a finished project when he arrived and I REALLY doubt he would have gotten as much PT without X getting hurt. I will give you the bigs, they have developed nicely and if he could get Reneau not to be a vortex and throw the ball out like TJD did, that would be great.

I loved Mike as a player but that is TOTALLY irrelevant to the discussion at hand. He is no longer a player and HE is the one that took on this challenge and set the bar at championships and in three years, IU has not come close to even sniffing any kind of championship.

When the wins and losses are bad, the folks who like Woody (which is fine it’s their opinion) point towards selected individual player successes.

 

[cshartle123]

I believe timing is of utmost importance here. Get engagement with many targets. Can’t jump too soon unless you’re getting exactly what you want. However it’s a balance of keep many options but not committing before all available transfers are in play.

There are tons of guys out there at different levels of experience in the transfer portal and decommits. We have a starting job at point guard and center with top NIL money. No excuse to not get exactly what you want.

 

[cshartle123]

Race card? Not sure what race has to do with nepotism in this scenario. Fact is that he appears to be overcompensated sans college experience and doesn't seem to have evidence of working overtime to get recruits. So far, I'm not exactly thrilled with his executive presence with the press and trashing fans.

What if I suggested a candidate that had NBA HC experience, an NBA W-L% of .481 reg season and Playoff W-L% of .452, would you be excited (all better than Woodson)? Well that was Jim O'Brien who has better % success at the NBA level. I'll concede his college resume wasn't strong but based on NBA record -- stronger than Woody's. I'd be super pissed if we hired Jim O'Brien. Woody got a pass with me because he was an IU great and I value that but I can't say I was overwhelmed with confidence based on his coaching record.

Would you be excited to hire him at the high school level? How many levels does he need to go down for 40 years in the NBA to excite you?

 

[demunn]

Last year was disappointing. I think we would have been five games better and in the tournament with Xavier. That said, it was also a rebuild of our front line. We lost TJD, Race, and Kopp. Woodson upgraded all of them in talent with Ware, Reneau, and Mgbako. Also, if you don’t give any credit to Woodson for JHS’s success then we aren’t going to see eye to eye about Woodson.

Five games better against who? X scored 8 against Nebraska in the B10 tourney and played 32 mins (more than anyone except Kel'el). We were NET 98? What five teams would we have beaten with X to improve that to tourney entry?

 

[cshartle123]

Five games better against who? X scored 8 against Nebraska in the B10 tourney and played 32 mins (more than anyone except Kel'el). We were NET 98? What five teams would we have beaten with X to improve that to tourney entry?

Kansas, Rutgers, PSUx2, NW

 

[demunn]

Would you be excited to hire him at the high school level? How many levels does he need to go down for 40 years in the NBA to excite you?

HS is not arguably equivalent to one of the top 10 winning NCAA BB programs in history. I wouldn't be happy to see Notre Dame (top winning NCAA FB programs) hire Forrest Gregg as a HC (near same winning % as Woody). Lovie Smith had a .479 winning% in the NFL and went 17-39 in college. Charlie Weis was super successful in the NFL and a flop at ND.

 

[cshartle123]

HS is not arguably within one of the top 10 winning NCAA BB programs in history. I wouldn't be happy to see Notre Dame (top winning NCAA FB programs) hire Forrest Gregg as a HC (near same winning % as Woody). Lovie Smith had a .479 winning% in the NFL and went 17-39 in college. Charlie Weis was super successful in the NFL and a flop at ND.

Are you saying it’s above high school, but below the top 10 winningest programs? Where exactly would you be excited?

 

[demunn]

Are you saying it’s above high school, but below the top 10 winningest programs? Where exactly would you be excited?

Based on the experience he had up to hire, I'd think it's fair to estimate that he would have been justifed and exciting at a mid-major HC job. There's nothing I'd be happier to be wrong on if he's successful at IU considering he's here another year.

 

[cshartle123]

Based on the experience he had up to hire, I'd think it's fair to estimate that he would have been justifed and exciting at a mid-major HC job.

Ok, we disagree there.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

Based on the experience he had up to hire, I'd think it's fair to estimate that he would have been justifed and exciting at a mid-major HC job. There's nothing I'd be happier to be wrong on if he's successful at IU considering he's here another year.

The only reason he is IU's coach is he played here. IU is still giving the Juwan Howard experiment another year.

 

[Bucket Getter]

When the wins and losses are bad, the folks who like Woody (which is fine it’s their opinion) point towards selected individual player successes.

The literal definition of insanity.

 

[demunn]

Ok, we disagree there.

Maybe the other way to say it is would you have felt threatened as an IU fan if any other B10 program hired him. My answer - not at all.

 

[CriticArisen]

“Average at the highest level “. Can I use that one at my next sales mtg? That’s good.

I knew you were in Sales when you strongly defended CMW’s golf habits.

Selling things and getting something complex back on track take different work habits and energy levels.

Not belittling Sales but just completely different work requirements.

 

[CriticArisen]

I connect TJD and Woodson as a work relationship, and give them both credit for what they accomplished together.

If you compare TJD’s pre CMW stat line with his last stat line not much change. TJD has tons of determination and no reason to think his improvement would have been less if Archie stayed. Race was actually down his last season.

 

[CriticArisen]

Ware’s 15 ppg and 10 rpg and X’s contributions must be replaced to just get back to even. Maybe someone will block out next year.

I hope MM’s shooting consistency improves over the summer and actually it should. He could be a good catch and shoot guy. An upgrade to Kopp in CMW’s scheme.

 

[Thcgh]

There are tons of guys out there at different levels of experience in the transfer portal and decommits. We have a starting job at point guard and center with top NIL money. No excuse to not get exactly what you want.

Not disagreeing just saying timing can be very important

 

[CriticArisen]

Not disagreeing just saying timing can be very important

No reason to conclude our NIL will be substantially better than the nationally competitive teams like UK, KU, UConn, Arkansas now, etc.

If there are players they really want then no reason to think they will not be able to put together a competitive or more attractive NIL offer.

 

[Shuski]

What Woodson gave IU was a reunification of the old guard and brought Bob Knight back into the fold fully before he died. I love what Woody said about getting IU back to what they were in the 70's through 93.

Unfortunately, the actions have not matched the words. It is no secret that having been at IU the same four years as Woodson I wanted him to succeed. I think Dolson should have brought in Dusty May under Woodson for a year knowing that May would take over the next season. We could still do that with a Chris Beard or someone like that if they were willing to do it. I don't believe Woodson would go for it but his retirement package would be in place. Bruce Pearl would be another choice although a lot of IU administrators would have heartburn over Beard or Pearls past.

 

[CriticArisen]

As of right now nearing 900 players entered portal and 62 committed. Call it a maelstrom of transfer players. If you don’t have a competitive advantage with your coaching staff evaluating players and selling players on your program then you will certainly fill out a team but still at a competitive disadvantage compared to national teams. I just do not believe that our NIL provides a sufficient advantage to overcome the other competitive disadvantages that we suffer. A player that one of the top teams really target will get a competitive or more than competitive offer.

Who is our peer group for comparison Northwestern, Nebraska, Ohio State, etc or UConn, KU, etc.

 

[UTFO]

Race card, huh?

Dude nobody pulls out the old race card more than grumpy white males, who have the least to complain about here, btw.

Maybe try some mental toughness thought experiments?

 

[Indyhorn]

He was average at the highest level. He went down a level, and has had three seasons. 11 seed, 5 seed, no tournament so far. It’s not a firing situation.

IU was a 4-seed in Woody’s second season- you likely think it was the 5-seed as IU was decimated in second round by the actual 5-seed Miami.

 

[.Gerdis]

at least this thread is entertaining. Much better than hearing about Purdue/ken.

 

[Al Bino]

Last year was disappointing. I think we would have been five games better and in the tournament with Xavier. That said, it was also a rebuild of our front line. We lost TJD, Race, and Kopp. Woodson upgraded all of them in talent with Ware, Reneau, and Mgbako. Also, if you don’t give any credit to Woodson for JHS’s success then we aren’t going to see eye to eye about Woodson.

What credit does Woodson deserve for JHS? The only reason he was put in the starting lineup was becasue X was injured. I don't think JHS would have been drafted as high if he doesn't take X's place in the starting lineup. So it isn't like Woodson saw JHS's talent and progress and mid-season he starts him in place of X. What did you see in the play of JHS that would lead you to believe it was coaching that brought him along? IMO, he was pretty much the same player at the end of the year as he was when he first stepped on the court.

All of that being said, Woodson does get credit for JHS simply because he was the head coach for the one year JHS was in Bton.

 

[cshartle123]

IU was a 4-seed in Woody’s second season- you likely think it was the 5-seed as IU was decimated in second round by the actual 5-seed Miami.

So NC State was actually a one seed?

 

[cshartle123]

If you compare TJD’s pre CMW stat line with his last stat line not much change. TJD has tons of determination and no reason to think his improvement would have been less if Archie stayed. Race was actually down his last season.

Your assessment found that Race got worse under Woodson?

 

[CriticArisen]

IU was a 4-seed in Woody’s second season- you likely think it was the 5-seed as IU was decimated in second round by the actual 5-seed Miami.

Greg Graham was on the selection committee and four seed was a gift so easier first round game than if seeded lower.

 

[cshartle123]

What credit does Woodson deserve for JHS? The only reason he was put in the starting lineup was becasue X was injured. I don't think JHS would have been drafted as high if he doesn't take X's place in the starting lineup. So it isn't like Woodson saw JHS's talent and progress and mid-season he starts him in place of X. What did you see in the play of JHS that would lead you to believe it was coaching that brought him along? IMO, he was pretty much the same player at the end of the year as he was when he first stepped on the court.

All of that being said, Woodson does get credit for JHS simply because he was the head coach for the one year JHS was in Bton.

Woodson was lucky he came.

 

[CriticArisen]

Your assessment found that Race got worse under Woodson?

His stat line was worse his last year than beforeCMW. Not what I think just a fact.

 

[IUNorth]

It's April .... this shit will last until July. Way too early for this ..

Definitely early on...but the trend of cancelled visits from guys that seem like pretty obvious good fits...and that again, seemingly, should be ecstatic with IU being interested and involved (Hickman as an example)...just seems very similar to last years portal season.

There are definitely some different dynamics this year though, for sure.

Just getting an IU bball discussion going here. And I'm glad there are two sides to it with guys like you and Cshartle bringing more optimistic possibilities and points to the table.

If we get through another week or two, after the Carlisle visit maybe, and there aren't any good vibes...its gonna be hard to tamp down the negative energy.

We'll see. That prospective lineup that would include some good guard portal guys like Perkins, Carlisle, Conwell, etc... would open up all sorts of great possibilities for Woody and IU.

 

[cshartle123]

Greg Graham was on the selection committee and four seed was a gift so easier first round game than if seeded lower.

Another fact?

 

[CriticArisen]

Another fact?

Yes. A fact GG was on the committee and a fact IU’s NET ranking was lower than 16.

 

[Al Bino]

Last year was disappointing. I think we would have been five games better and in the tournament with Xavier. That said, it was also a rebuild of our front line. We lost TJD, Race, and Kopp. Woodson upgraded all of them in talent with Ware, Reneau, and Mgbako. Also, if you don’t give any credit to Woodson for JHS’s success then we aren’t going to see eye to eye about Woodson.

Also, you say Woodson upgraded the front line talent BUT we don't make the tourney. Hmmm. Maybe it's because he didn't address the lack of shooting at the guard position and that is TOTALLY on Woodson especially considering he left a ship open.

You also seemed to ignore the massive number of games during Woodson's tenure that IU was completely uncompetitive. 17 games where IU lost by 15 or more points. REALLY?? How can you defend that?

 

[cshartle123]

Also, you say Woodson upgraded the front line talent BUT we don't make the tourney. Hmmm. Maybe it's because he didn't address the lack of shooting at the guard position and that is TOTALLY on Woodson especially considering he left a ship open.

You also seemed to ignore the massive number of games during Woodson's tenure that IU was completely uncompetitive. 17 games where IU lost by 15 or more points. REALLY?? How can you defend that?

Or maybe it was that our sixth year point guard missed the season? I guess we will never know.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

I knew you were in Sales when you strongly defended CMW’s golf habits.

Selling things and getting something complex back on track take different work habits and energy levels.

Not belittling Sales but just completely different work requirements.

in fairness I'm in a different type of role...long development time, lots of engineering and design/integration, sometimes 12-18 month cycle (dealing with US Govt). Much more of a consultative role selling solutions, not widgets from the catalog. Not like selling aluminum siding or condos at the Glengarry development.

I just thought it was petty to pick out a Sunday morning round of golf. Woody has plenty of reasons to be criticized....bad roster, teams that can't shoot FTs, 20 pt blowouts, minimal interest in recruiting in-state, and I thought getting tossed in the final Nebraska blowout was chickenshit on his part. But everyone's entitled to some private time on Sunday morning. Even slowly-failing head coaches.

 

[Chicago-bound Hoosier]

Woodson was lucky he came.

 

[cshartle123]

Also, you say Woodson upgraded the front line talent BUT we don't make the tourney. Hmmm. Maybe it's because he didn't address the lack of shooting at the guard position and that is TOTALLY on Woodson especially considering he left a ship open.

You also seemed to ignore the massive number of games during Woodson's tenure that IU was completely uncompetitive. 17 games where IU lost by 15 or more points. REALLY?? How can you defend that?

I’ve never predicted Woodson will make a Final Four, and I’ve never predicted he won’t. I have nothing to defend.

 

[CriticArisen]

in fairness I'm in a different type of role...long development time, lots of engineering and design/integration, sometimes 12-18 month cycle (dealing with US Govt). Much more of a consultative role selling solutions, not widgets from the catalog. Not like selling aluminum siding or condos at the Glengarry development.

I just thought it was petty to pick out a Sunday morning round of golf. Woody has plenty of reasons to be criticized....bad roster, teams that can't shoot FTs, 20 pt blowouts, minimal interest in recruiting in-state, and I thought getting tossed in the final Nebraska blowout was chickenshit on his part. But everyone's entitled to some private time on Sunday morning. Even slowly-failing head coaches.

My apologies and I.understand. It’s just when the ship is going down I would receive some comfort from the captain humping it bailing water. My perception of CMW is he has one speed and misplaced priorities so better for me if no video.

 

[IUNorth]

Last year was disappointing. I think we would have been five games better and in the tournament with Xavier. That said, it was also a rebuild of our front line. We lost TJD, Race, and Kopp. Woodson upgraded all of them in talent with Ware, Reneau, and Mgbako. Also, if you don’t give any credit to Woodson for JHS’s success then we aren’t going to see eye to eye about Woodson.

Woodson has done, and brings quite a lot of good things to IU basketball. You've listed some of them on this thread, I'll add bridging the gap back to RMK...I think he was uniquely suited to help pull that off, and all IU stakeholders...the school, the fans, RMK and his family, the former players...all of them needed that. Big scheme, if Woody ends up falling short again this next year, and gets fired, for the above reason alone, his time at IU won't be a failure.

My main beefs... in no particular order...

He hasn't changed the roster focus, at all, since he arrived in Bloomington. Whatever the reason, justifiable or not, he's had 3 full offseasons to round out his rosters and program with higher level perimeter players, and every single year, we've been talking about needing better guards.

His teams don't consistently play hard, and they don't execute much of anything good consistently. So...consistency... Study basically any top sports program, in any sport, and the common thread is attention to detail, and mastering all the little details. There's is virtually no evidence that would show that Woodson is willing and/or capable of coaching those basic things well.

There are some other things like his substitution patterns, and how he handled X... But if he would improve those 2 main things I mentioned, I think he might start approaching being a solid coach at IU.