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Is eliminating grading in high school a bridge too far?

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anon_6hv78pr714xta

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I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
 
BradStevens said:
I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
Click to expand...
This can not be real.

Participation trophies have done enough damage, this shit would create a generation of walking basket cases three months out of school.
 
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Color me skeptical that this is legitimate.

#PicsOrItDidntHappen
 
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BradStevens said:
The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.
Click to expand...

The purpose of a hobby or extracurricular activity is the learn and grow. Yes, education should include learning (obviously) and growing but ultimately they will have to fend for themselves so that should be part of the education as well, no?

However, I'm with TMFT in as far as I hope this isn't real. If it is and my kid hears about it I don't really want to answer any questions about why i bitch about her grades so much.
 
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Marvin the Martian said:
My first take is that it is a crazy idea. But thinking a bit, Montessori schools don't grade. So there is a basis for comparison. I don't know what studies in the US show, the article below says at lower levels Montessori students did better but at the teenage level, in The Netherlands, there was no difference.


So it may not be crazy. But it might be.
Click to expand...
My kids' elementary school doesn't do letter grades, it's just "exceeding grade level expectations," "meeting," and "not meeting." I'm not sure how far this continues, although I know their HS will use letter grades.

I'm just not buying the "email" as legit. It seems like it uses too many buzz words intended to trigger the kind of folks that use "woke" as a go-to pejorative.
 
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TMFT said:
My kids' elementary school doesn't do letter grades, it's just "exceeding grade level expectations," "meeting," and "not meeting." I'm not sure how far this continues, although I know their HS will use letter grades.

I'm just not buying the "email" as legit. It seems like it uses too many buzz words intended to trigger the kind of folks that use "woke" as a go-to pejorative.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think when I was in grade school we either got an Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory ... seems like there was one one but I can't remember.

I just knew that I'd better not come home with a U on there. :)
 
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BradStevens said:
I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
Click to expand...
It sounds like there is a letter grade at the end of the semester. If so then I don't see the big deal. I had a statistics class at IU that allowed students to retake exams if they didn't like their grade. But it's not clear what happens to any I grade at the end of the semester.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
My first take is that it is a crazy idea. But thinking a bit, Montessori schools don't grade. So there is a basis for comparison. I don't know what studies in the US show, the article below says at lower levels Montessori students did better but at the teenage level, in The Netherlands, there was no difference.


So it may not be crazy. But it might be.
Click to expand...
Here are some articles discussing the possibility and arguing in favor of abolishing grades:

thebestschools.org

Does Grading Matter In College?

The debate about whether grades help or hinder student learning is as old as the U.S. grading system itself.
thebestschools.org thebestschools.org

www.thnk.org

THNK School of Leadership

THNK School of Leadership designs and facilitates transformational leadership development to train and support leaders globally.
www.thnk.org www.thnk.org

www.nea.org

Are Letter Grades Failing Our Students? | NEA

In search of better ways to measure student progress, some states are scrapping letter grades. What will take their place?
www.nea.org www.nea.org

www.kqed.org

Grades Have Huge Impact, But Are They Effective? | KQED

How accurate is grading? Some teachers are pushing back on counting points for behavior and they’re finding better, more equitable ways to assess learning. By changing grading practices, their teaching is evolving as well.
www.kqed.org www.kqed.org
 
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At first blush, all the woke feeling crap in there is terrible. If you remove the valley's kids never get to feel the mountain top. Having said that, I think just about all school work should be able to be repeated. The end goal is learning it by the end of a period ( semester or what ever), not learning it by 2pm on Tueday or else. If that makes sense at all, it does to me. I know as an adult, I sometime (reads often) need to see my mistake, to understand what I did wrong. Besides, if a kid flunks a Tuesday quiz and new material starts Wednesday, how many will go back and study what they flunked.
 
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BradStevens said:
I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
Click to expand...
Can you imagine an employer trying to hire a person and really not have much to go on. I know there's a lot more than grades that go into making a good employee but at least they are something to start out with.
 
I had an IU prof announce at the beginning of the semester that everyone was basically going to get an A unless the necessary assignments weren’t completed, and her reasoning was exactly the same as what is expressed in the letter above.
 
NPT said:
Can you imagine an employer trying to hire a person and really not have much to go on. I know there's a lot more than grades that go into making a good employee but at least they are something to start out with.
Click to expand...

"Hey, doc, before you start my bypass operation, did you get a 'satisfactory' at IU's med school in your heart classes?"
 
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BradStevens said:
I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
Click to expand...
The subtext seems to be that the benefits of good grades is to be bestowed instead of earned. We need education to be more rigorous , not less. More accountably, standards, and achievement has educational rewards that we need to encourage.
 
Marvin the Martian said:
My first take is that it is a crazy idea. But thinking a bit, Montessori schools don't grade. So there is a basis for comparison. I don't know what studies in the US show, the article below says at lower levels Montessori students did better but at the teenage level, in The Netherlands, there was no difference.


So it may not be crazy. But it might be.
Click to expand...
Might not be? Seriously?
 
BradStevens said:
I've seen this subject discussed among some in the education field. Here's an email that just went out at a woke Chicago suburban high school (public) regarding an AP English class:

“ Hi families!

In the spirit of progressive education, I have done away with “bad” grades (oh, how I wish I could do away with them altogether!). Students who are earning lower than a “B” have been given an “Incomplete” (I) grade for Quarter 1. This allows them to go back and make up missed work without the negative academic and social-emotional impact of a low letter grade. A quick Google search will tell you why giving bad grades is a bad idea, but for me personally in the classroom, I don’t want a student to see themselves as a letter grade...even if it is an A. Identifying as such often leads to stress, anxiety, poor self-esteem, self-loathing, etc. It’s great if kids get great grades, but for those who struggle—or even struggle to get the “good” grades—the social construct of grading is detrimental.

Students who receive an “I” will have until the end of the semester to make up missed work. In addition, any student at any time can redo an assignment if they are dissatisfied with their final product/grade—this includes homework, classwork, tests, quizzes. The purpose of education is to LEARN and GROW and hopefully to understand that said learning and growing is super important.

Thanks as always for your support,

[Teacher] ”

I have a lot of problems with this. Within the liberal mindset, though, I do think we should be teaching SEL to give kids the tools to help struggle with bad grades if they get them, survive, and grow from them. It seems, though, that many in education want to teach SEL and then take away all the obstacles they would use their SEL training to overcome.
Click to expand...
If everybody/all students get a passing grade, we all lose. Asian kids are already far ahead of American students in most subjects, including math, history & science. None of the Asian countries use this type of grading system.

Keep it up, & we Americans will be speaking Mandarin, eating with chop sticks, & working for China.





From Within
 
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TMFT said:
Have you ever asked for a doctor’s transcripts?
Click to expand...
Can't read them, & I nearly got a job transcribing them/that chicken scratching many years ago.

When you can't even read your own chicken scratching, you shouldn't be allowed to chicken scratch at all, you might kill someone/many.



When Mercury looks too close to Mercurium

Not Good
 
BradStevens said:
You'll just have to trust me. I can understand why you are skeptical, though.
Click to expand...
I believe you. These guys don't understand that in order to get 100% proof, you have to give up too much identifying info for you, your child, and/or the teacher.
 
stollcpa said:
We haven’t needed to. Looks like that will be changing with these half baked ideas.
Click to expand...
So you think every doctor you’ve ever seen was an A student? You don’t think any were C “satisfactory ” students? At Daviess Community or Jasper Memorial?
 
TMFT said:
So you think every doctor you’ve ever seen was an A student? You don’t think any were C “satisfactory ” students? At Daviess Community or Jasper Memorial?
Click to expand...
I think is was Carlin who said that every medical school has someone who finishes last.
 
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TMFT said:
And he was right. I don’t see how this is so difficult for people to wrap their heads around.
Click to expand...

Stop being purposely obtuse. Of course there are average and below-average students in every class. If you pass out satisfactory "grades" to everyone but the absolute bottom, so as not to offend or wound any sensitive psyches, why not just give out participation certificates to everyone? Let's do it all the way through the highest disciplines of medicine, law and engineering, for example.
 
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bawlmer said:
It sounds like there is a letter grade at the end of the semester. If so then I don't see the big deal. I had a statistics class at IU that allowed students to retake exams if they didn't like their grade. But it's not clear what happens to any I grade at the end of the semester.
Click to expand...

I'm on the fence about some things. Overall, the idea of abolishing grades is ridiculous, but the idea that you can improve upon a poor showing is something I like.

However, you just wonder how someone that is given multiple chances to right their wrong(s) will survive in the real world. If you f up in plenty of circumstances, you don't get a do over.
 
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Univee2 said:
Stop being purposely obtuse. Of course there are average and below-average students in every class. If you pass out satisfactory "grades" to everyone but the absolute bottom, so as not to offend or wound any sensitive psyches, why not just give out participation certificates to everyone? Let's do it all the way through the highest disciplines of medicine, law and engineering, for example.
Click to expand...
Who’s being obtuse? Stoll made a comment about asking a doctor his college grades and my point is that we’ve never asked a doctor (or any other professional for that matter) their grades. Hell, most people probably don’t even check for medical malpractice claims

Pass the bar exam? It means you’re “minimally competent.” I’m sure there is something similar for all other licensures.

There are aspects of shifting away from letter grades that are up for debate, but this isn’t one of them because unless you’re seeing a doctor’s school grades, all you know is that he passed satisfactorily anyway.
 
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JamieDimonsBalls said:
I'm on the fence about some things. Overall, the idea of abolishing grades is ridiculous, but the idea that you can improve upon a poor showing is something I like.

However, you just wonder how someone that is given multiple chances to right their wrong(s) will survive in the real world. If you f up in plenty of circumstances, you don't get a do over.
Click to expand...
That's why i think it's important there be final grades for the semester. Seems a good balance between teaching life lessons and maximizing the number of kids who leave a class understanding the subject.
 
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bawlmer said:
That's why i think it's important there be final grades for the semester. Seems a good balance between teaching life lessons and maximizing the number of kids who leave a class understanding the subject.
Click to expand...

You just have to be careful because there are people that could give poor effort and then decide to true it up the last month or two of the semester
 
JamieDimonsBalls said:
You just have to be careful because there are people that could give poor effort and then decide to true it up the last month or two of the semester
Click to expand...
Let me ask a question here:
Say you have a high school student (since the OP started with a HS situation) who is in a physics class, and he sits in the back of the class and doesn't do anything for the entire semester. He comes to class, sleeps or reads LOTR, does not turn in a single assignment or participate in class in any way. He's not disruptive, he just takes up space.
Then, on the final exam, which covers the content of the whole semester, he aces it with a perfect score.
What final grade should this student receive?
 
Bulk VanderHuge said:
Let me ask a question here:
Say you have a high school student (since the OP started with a HS situation) who is in a physics class, and he sits in the back of the class and doesn't do anything for the entire semester. He comes to class, sleeps or reads LOTR, does not turn in a single assignment or participate in class in any way. He's not disruptive, he just takes up space.
Then, on the final exam, which covers the content of the whole semester, he aces it with a perfect score.
What final grade should this student receive?
Click to expand...
An A assuming the final is 100% of the grade.
 
TMFT said:
Who’s being obtuse? Stoll made a comment about asking a doctor his college grades and my point is that we’ve never asked a doctor (or any other professional for that matter) their grades. Hell, most people probably don’t even check for medical malpractice claims

Pass the bar exam? It means you’re “minimally competent.” I’m sure there is something similar for all other licensures.

There are aspects of shifting away from letter grades that are up for debate, but this isn’t one of them because unless you’re seeing a doctor’s school grades, all you know is that he passed satisfactorily anyway.
Click to expand...

It's quite a nuanced and subjective concept. For example, some might be more impressed with someone that received a 4.0 from Ball St. Others, more impressed by someone with a 2.9 from Yale.

So grades, the school, test scores, etc. mean different things to different individuals. Trying to force groupthink (not saying you are) to think a certain way about people is unproductive and unreasonable IMO. That's been part of the problem with some of these pushes to eliminate test scores or grades.
 
Bulk VanderHuge said:
Let me ask a question here:
Say you have a high school student (since the OP started with a HS situation) who is in a physics class, and he sits in the back of the class and doesn't do anything for the entire semester. He comes to class, sleeps or reads LOTR, does not turn in a single assignment or participate in class in any way. He's not disruptive, he just takes up space.
Then, on the final exam, which covers the content of the whole semester, he aces it with a perfect score.
What final grade should this student receive?
Click to expand...
Different school systems have different grading systems. More than likely, go to the inner city, low income schools & districts, & you'll find a grading curve which is lower, passes more students & spends less dollars per pupil. Go to a private school, & you'll likely find just the opposite/more money.



He passes

The Class
 
JamieDimonsBalls said:
It's quite a nuanced and subjective concept. For example, some might be more impressed with someone that received a 4.0 from Ball St. Others, more impressed by someone with a 2.9 from Yale.

So grades, the school, test scores, etc. mean different things to different individuals. Trying to force groupthink (not saying you are) to think a certain way about people is unproductive and unreasonable IMO. That's been part of the problem with some of these pushes to eliminate test scores or grades.
Click to expand...
When his/her office is in 'a van, down by the river', you know you & your doc are in trouble.




Yikes

Slip & Fall Specialist
 
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