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If Obama does what this report

Wow.

Your responses here tonight are both disturbing and unsurprising. I am not sure with bothers me most.

For someone who claims to be a pastor, you have an amazingly faulty understanding of theology.

goat
 
Noodle...

My fellow liberal and clay pigeon Rock got some people riled up a ways back for referring to "Republican Jesus." Inflammatory phrase, perhaps, but this is what he was talking about.

As a non-Christian who has studied the Bible and Christianity in quite a bit of detail, and got a degree in the matter from the #1 university in the state of Indiana*, I can honestly say that my understanding of who God and Jesus were and are is more respectful and reverent than you'll get form this self-professed Christian.

goat

*
laugh.r191677.gif
 
so what happens after the impeachment is confirmed?

for those wanting a Constitutional Ammendment... let it be regarding Executive Orders... vastly limiting them or eliminating them all together... what's being done is beyond treasonous...
 
do as you would with any cut... stop the bleeding first...

secure the borders like our laws state we should.... and which our tax money 12.9 billion pays for...

get an accounting of how many illegals are inside the borders.... give them ID's that state they are illegally in the US... instead of incarcerating them like Mexico does to illegals in their country...

during the next voting cycle... let each state create a proposition vote that decides what should be done with the illegals in their state.... amnesty or expulsion...

enforce the decision of the vote....
 
If I may.....

I've been reading through this branch of the thread and note the reaction of both you and goat to VPM's response. Without addressing his response directly yet, I will say that he did, in fact, answer your question - that is to say - he did tell you how his faith influences his response to the scenarios you presented. He took one passage and built his response upon it.

This is how a fundamentalist Christian thinks. I'm not commenting on whether he is right or wrong in this approach, but it is what it is. This particular approach attempts to base all faith-based answers to issues on Biblical passages. Proof texting, as this practice is called, when well practiced, allows Christians to quickly arrive at a concensus a amongst themselves, provided the group can all agree on which texts apply to which questions.

VPM in this case states that we should respect our governments (and by extension obey their laws) because Governments are established by God to reward righteousness and punish evil doers. (And I agree with that position, with a few caveats). it won't take a lot of work to point out other posts where he violates this axiom because he does not agree with the politics of the government that we have in place.

But - this is how his faith works.

The question is - are the teachings and practices of Jesus consistent with his approach. How does his answer square with the parable of The Good Samaritan, for example?

As soon as we ask this question the rigid structure of fundamentalist faith begins to crumble. Once we are asked to think, to apply context, to invoke empathy, the knee jerk answers to hard questions become ankle traps. This is not to say that there are no absolutes. Rather, it speaks to the kind of God that we worship. Is our God one who is eager to condemn, or one who is anxious to bestow compassion.

I think that the thing about VPM's faith that puts people off is that it appears to be without compassion: that's what the law says so my conscience is clear. For some he might seem to have more in common with the Pharisees than with The Savior.

No matter how one approaches your question from a faith perspective, it is difficult to answer it without recognizing inconsistencies in ones own life.

This post was edited on 11/6 7:24 AM by DougS
 
Re: If I may.....

I disagree, as I do not think he ever answered the questions I posed. The Bible certainly does teach one should that follow secular laws and that they are important. However, my questions were all about whether we, as a country founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and values, have an obligation to show compassion and forgiveness by CHANGING those laws or deciding, through the LEGISLATIVE process, that there is a better solution than deporting everyone.

I too was taught to obey laws. I was also taught what, in my opinion, are more important values--compassion, forgiveness, and standing up for those who we believe are being treated unfairly? If the rule of law trumped all else, then I suppose all of the Christians picketing abortion clinics, lobbying their legislatures to ban abortions, etc., should all just shut up and go home. It all wreaks of hypocrisy (and worse)--and that's clearly not a Christian approach to any problem.

Or, if I get a ticket for reckless driving for rushing my wife, in labor, to the hospital, VanCharlatanMan apparently believes that the only Christian thing for me to do is to show up in court, plead guilty and pay the fine. I should neither request nor accept leniency, compassion or forgiveness from the court--after all, I clearly broke the law, and the law says the fine shall be $X.

(Not to mention the fact that just because someone entered the country illegally does not mean that their punishment is automatic deportation--even our current law does not absolute mandate deportation.)

I don't want our borders opened to any and all who want to come here. (Heck, some think even that is not in following with Christ's teachings.) I think that any immigration reform which will allow people here already to stay (under certain circumstance, and with clear exceptions) should ONLY happen in conjunction with a significant strengthening of our borders.

A professed Christian faith without compassion and forgiveness is, in my opinion, no faith at all.
 
Why I think he answered your question.....

I think he answered it as far as his faith allowed him to. That answer is "no". Whether or not the law should be changed, in this situation, is not a matter of faith, but of politics, and I think his politics like the law as it is.

Of course, what we're really dealing with here is the mix of politics disguising itself of faith and vice versa. In my opinion politics and faith are one for VPM, and he's happy with that.

Of course, there are laws that his politics..... I mean faith.... think should be changed or eliminated. A quick survey of the Cooler will tell you which ones they are.

Also - lest anyone remind me of the logs in my own eye - I recognize that I do the same thing. If there is a difference, it is that I recognize it. In some areas, I'm even trying to get the logs out!
 
hmmmm....I think you're being overly generous, but...


I understand your underlying point that the problem is the mixing of politics and faith. However, while I think that there will always be tension between the law and faith, I don't think there should necessarily be tension between politics and faith. And, to the extent that there is that tension between politics and faith, often it is more accurately described as a tension between partisan politics and faith.

I hate to turn this into a debate over abortion (and I hope it doesn't) but it's a good example of what I mean. (And I seem to recall that you share some of the views I am about to express--although maybe it was Sope)

If someone who believes that life begins at conception and therefore abortion should be against the law, then that person, I think, should firmly be opposed to exceptions for rape and incest (and, possibly, when the life of the mother is at serious risk). Yet, most politicians, and even people who oppose abortion based on their own faith, refuse to go that far. Why? I think mostly for political expediency--and, perhaps, because they would not be willing to look into the eyes of a rape victim and tell her that she must carry the baby to term (which, of course, means that they ARE willing to allow a woman to choose if it wasn't her fault that she's pregnant!).

On the flip side (and I admit this one is, perhaps, not nearly as valid, and some might even say a false dichotomy), if you personally believe that abortion is morally wrong yet think it's a personal choice for a pregnant woman to make, aren't you devaluing the personhood of the unborn child whom you think it would be immoral to kill? In other words, if you think abortion is morally wrong yet you still support the woman's right to choose throughout the full term of pregnancy, shouldn't the mother also be permitted to choose whether to allow her 1-week old newborn to live to 2-weeks+? If not, haven't you arbitrarily drawn a line, with absolutely no basis for that delineation apart from where that baby happens to be residing (inside vs. outside the womb)?

Of course many will argue that because of this tension on the question of abortion, and the fact that so many of our laws are, in fact, based upon moral determinations on which not everyone agrees, coupled with the political necessity to compromise, we have reached a compromise wherein abortion is permitted, under the law, up until viability (with certain exceptions, such as when the life of the mother is at stake). I get that. But it does not mean that someone who, based on their own religious beliefs and faith, is staunchly pro-life should follow Paul's counsel in Romans, Chapter 13, and declare "the law is the law, we must follow it"--never seeking to change that law.

That clearly is not what Paul meant. Yet, Van and many, many others seem to selectively interpret Paul's teachings in that manner when it suits their own partisan political views rather than taking the time to decide for themselves what they believe is right and just.

Or, in a lot fewer words, being a conservative or a Republican should never have to mean that I can't oppose the death penalty, or support immigration reform which allows some illegal immigrants to stay, or {gasp!} believe in a little more gun control. Sadly, however, too many of us have become lemmings, blindly nodding along in agreement at whatever issue others on our side of the political spectrum tells us we should believe. No, it's not politics vs. faith--it's PARTISAN politics vs. faith.

And its sad and frustrating to watch play out day after day, election after election.
 
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