Has patriotism in the U.S. become political?

[IUCrazy2]

One might argue that you have that exactly backwards, that the conservatives would downplay just how bad the bad was. One might remember Lincoln's words on the morality of the Civil War: "Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." One might recognize that our national sin was not some sideshow to our national greatness, but actually a huge, cosmic-level sin that affected millions of lives.

America is great. America has been great. American can become even greater. I don't need to downplay the horrible things America has allowed to believe those three things.

Again, it is on emphasis. I think slavery was a horrible sin. I don't think it defines us. You may not think that either, but there is a very large contingent of people to the left of you who very much do. They have a whole project based on a date where that is the very premise and if they think we are great and have been great, they have a weird way of showing it.

We are great. We have been great. We will be greater when we start moving forward instead of continuing to dwell on what was like it is the here and now.

And we will go round and round and I am not convinced your opinion above is expressly wrong just as much as I am convinced mine is right.

 

[larsIU]

Just watch the video. What are you afraid of?

Alright Mo, I watched it. Here are ten thoughts. All were mentioned. Mind you, I don't know everything about slavery but this video sure as hell doesn't either.

1. Slavery has bene around for eons

1. No shit.

2. Slavery was generally not racist

1. I mean, the video uses the example of peoples in the Balkans during ancient times being enslaved by both Europeans and Arabs alike. While the video can say it's "not racist", I don't think that mattered in antiquity. Romans enslaved all kinds of people mostly for not being Roman. Racism as we understand it today probably wasn't understood as such 1500 years ago.

3. African slaves didn't enter the Western hemisphere until 600 years after European slavery.

1. No shit x 2. Euros didn't even get here until the 15th century.

4. Africans were still enslaving other Africans as late as 1891

1. Ok. What does that have to do with America

5. Black people enslaved other black people

1. We already covered this ground. But, duh.

6. White people didn't enslave anybody in Africa.

1. And Tim Cook doesn't mine the minerals in Africa or build the chips in Taiwan for an iPhone. What's the video's point here?

7. Death rates were the same for both whites and black on the return trips from Africa

1. Firstly, what the actual f*ck does this matter?
2. Of course the crew protected the cargo. Didn't you see The Perfect Storm?
3. And, lastly, I'm entirely certain those numbers are correct. I'm sure no slaves were dumped overboard. Ever. Certainly not without the white crew documenting such.

8. Those poor white people who bought the slaves didn't know what those slaves had been through to even become slaves.

1. GTFOH with that sob story, Karen looking, victimizing, bullshit.

9. There were thousand's of black commercial slave owners in the antebellum south.

1. I get that it's Encyclopedia.com but I'll let you stand this one up on your own

Benevolent slave ownership among African Americans is characterized by the purchase of relatives or friends. For instance, a free African American woman might purchase her husband in order to remove him from the threat of a cruel master. Or a parent might purchase his or her children for the same reason. Because some state legislatures, such as the 1806 Virginia legislature, required emancipated slaves to leave the state, a woman's continued ownership of her spouse, or a parent's continued ownership of his or her children, was often the only way for a family unit to remain intact within the state. Some free African Americans purchased slaves with the understanding that the enslaved person would then purchase his or her freedom over time in installments. Or a slave might accumulate his or her purchase price through the practice of hiring out and approach a free black person to buy him or her with that money with the understanding that the slave would live as a free person. Thus, these African American owners were not necessarily enslaving people for their labor, but purchasing relatives or friends to keep families together or to help people move out of slavery.

Scholars of African American history argue about whether commercial slaveholding was more or less common than benevolent slaveholding among blacks, but all would agree that there were at least some black slaveholders who held slaves for precisely the same reason as their white counterparts—to earn money.

2. That "thousands" likely includes many, many benevolent black slave holders.

10. Slavery only existed in the USA for a short period of time. Much shorter than other countries.

1. No shit x 3. Let's do the math. If we use 1776, because that's generally the founding, yeah it's a pretty short period. Hell, even if we use 1619 that's under 250 years. But guess what? just like point #3, DUH. People besides indigenous peoples didn't even get here until the 1500's (en masse)

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Again, it is on emphasis. I think slavery was a horrible sin. I don't think it defines us. You may not think that either, but there is a very large contingent of people to the left of you who very much do. They have a whole project based on a date where that is the very premise and if they think we are great and have been great, they have a weird way of showing it.

We are great. We have been great. We will be greater when we start moving forward instead of continuing to dwell on what was like it is the here and now.

And we will go round and round and I am not convinced your opinion above is expressly wrong just as much as I am convinced mine is right.

Actually, I do think slavery defines us. But I don't think it's the only thing that defines us. I also think our rape of the indigenous cultures defines us. I think our overarching national commitment over centuries to trampling and conquering an entire continent and turning nature into parking lots defines us.

But I also think our national heritage of leaving an intolerant society to find religious and intellectual freedom defines us. I think, as antiquated as it might seem, Republicanism defines us (as opposed to monarchism or other forms of autocracy). I think rugged individualism defines us. But I also think commitment to community defines us, as well.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't get down with this argument that one thing or the other alone defines who we are. I think we are a combination of both the best and the worst of our history.

 

[mohoosier]

Alright Mo, I watched it. Here are ten thoughts. All were mentioned. Mind you, I don't know everything about slavery but this video sure as hell doesn't either.

1. Slavery has bene around for eons

1. No shit.

2. Slavery was generally not racist

1. I mean, the video uses the example of peoples in the Balkans during ancient times being enslaved by both Europeans and Arabs alike. While the video can say it's "not racist", I don't think that mattered in antiquity. Romans enslaved all kinds of people mostly for not being Roman. Racism as we understand it today probably wasn't understood as such 1500 years ago.

3. African slaves didn't enter the Western hemisphere until 600 years after European slavery.

1. No shit x 2. Euros didn't even get here until the 15th century.

4. Africans were still enslaving other Africans as late as 1891

1. Ok. What does that have to do with America

5. Black people enslaved other black people

1. We already covered this ground. But, duh.

6. White people didn't enslave anybody in Africa.

1. And Tim Cook doesn't mine the minerals in Africa or build the chips in Taiwan for an iPhone. What's the video's point here?

7. Death rates were the same for both whites and black on the return trips from Africa

1. Firstly, what the actual f*ck does this matter?
2. Of course the crew protected the cargo. Didn't you see The Perfect Storm?
3. And, lastly, I'm entirely certain those numbers are correct. I'm sure no slaves were dumped overboard. Ever. Certainly not without the white crew documenting such.

8. Those poor white people who bought the slaves didn't know what those slaves had been through to even become slaves.

1. GTFOH with that sob story, Karen looking, victimizing, bullshit.

9. There were thousand's of black commercial slave owners in the antebellum south.

1. I get that it's Encyclopedia.com but I'll let you stand this one up on your own

2. That "thousands" likely includes many, many benevolent black slave holders.

10. Slavery only existed in the USA for a short period of time. Much shorter than other countries.

1. No shit x 3. Let's do the math. If we use 1776, because that's generally the founding, yeah it's a pretty short period. Hell, even if we use 1619 that's under 250 years. But guess what? just like point #3, DUH. People besides indigenous peoples didn't even get here until the 1500's (en masse)

Thanks

 

[IUCrazy2]

Actually, I do think slavery defines us. But I don't think it's the only thing that defines us. I also think our rape of the indigenous cultures defines us. I think our overarching national commitment over centuries to trampling and conquering an entire continent and turning nature into parking lots defines us.

But I also think our national heritage of leaving an intolerant society to find religious and intellectual freedom defines us. I think, as antiquated as it might seem, Republicanism defines us (as opposed to monarchism or other forms of autocracy). I think rugged individualism defines us. But I also think commitment to community defines us, as well.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't get down with this argument that one thing or the other alone defines who we are. I think we are a combination of both the best and the worst of our history.

I can agree with that with the added disclaimer that I think we are more defined by the positive than the negative based on where we currently reside.

 

[outside shooter]

We are great. We have been great.

That's 180 degrees opposite to the belief inherent in the slogan "Make America Great AGAIN"

The presence of the word "again" means that it is NOT GREAT NOW and that we need to roll back the clocks and calendars to those glorious days when we were. Presumably... when there were not so many uppity N-words and gays around and the women would stay home, shut up, and make you your sandwich. You know, MAGA dream land.

Well... you ain't getting that. We made America greater by starting to overcome our past failings. The first step was facing up to them.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

You might be missing some context.

If I still lived in Indiana or even just in the Midwest, I could wear my IU hat every single day without a second thought. People know the IU logo and IU colors. I would not be mistaken for a MAGA bigot. I could also wear my Cincinnati Reds hat every single day without a second thought. People know the Reds logo and colors. I would not be mistaken for a MAGAt.

I live in Florida. No locals teams would have predominantly red in a hat or other apparel. Not the Dolphins, Bucs, Jaguars, Heat, Marlins, Panthers, Rays, Gators, UCF Knights, Seminoles (though they have deep scarlet), etc.

Chances are, anyone you see wearing a red hat down here, it's a MAGA hat, and the impression is that a person wearing a red hat might be in the cult / Klan of MAGA.

That's an impression that I would like to avoid sending. It is unfortunate that such appropriation has happened, but it is reality.

I’ve lived all over. Caring what someone might think about me because of the color of my hat has never, and would never, happen. I’m who I am, I’m not what some moron may think I am because my hat is red, or blue, or black. It strikes me as very ridiculous and very wimpy for it to matter to anyone. Wear your damn IU cap with confidence in Florida, or Texas, or Kentucky. In fact I picked my nephew up at UK where he’s attending (my sister failed, but her husband attended UK so it’s understandable) and I wore an IU shirt and cap. I don’t care if anyone disliked it. OK, maybe I was hoping someone did.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I can agree with that with the added disclaimer that I think we are more defined by the positive than the negative based on where we currently reside.

I would ask that you'd stop interpreting the other side as focusing so much on the negative. Then we'd be very close.

 

[outside shooter]

AH... People in Kentucky recognize an IU hat, may despise it, but they understand it. I'd wear mine there proudly, all day long.

People in FL see a red hat, don't know what IU is, don't recognize the logo, don't know the team colors, and think it looks like a MAGA hat. It appears to them, at first glance, that you are wearing a MAGA hat, which is pretty much the equivalent of you wearing a swastika.

 

[IUCrazy2]

I would ask that you'd stop interpreting the other side as focusing so much on the negative. Then we'd be very close.

In your instance, done. With people like Hannah-Jones though, I'm not there.

 

[TommyCracker]

I think the difference is on the emphasis. My perception is that the "left", for lack of a better term, prefers to emphasize what went wrong. And really that is almost entirely around slavery and the black experience in this country. It has expanded to cover other non-white groups with grievances, real and imagined, but it is mostly the idea of slavery. So that is the lens by which we are judging things now. Your own post even hints at it. "That there nationalism is really about something else donchyaknow."

The conservatives, by and large, will acknowledge that bad stuff happened but will say, "but look at all of the positives that flowed from those flawed individuals and the system they created is among the best in allowing for course correction." We all have warts but what an awesome and lucky place to have been born.

Hope and Change vs. Make it Great Again. You think it is mostly broke and needs a fixin' and racism and they think it is mostly good and your fixin' has gone too far and white people beating the racism drum so often are the most tedious people on the planet.

I do like your IU basketball analogy, as I think it's a pretty concise summary of the two thought processes.

I can also get on board with the criticism that we aren't celebrating the wins as a country as much as we should. As a lib, I'm hard wired to celebrate the wins and accent the positive.

The flip side of that is taking offense at having a serious discussions about our history. My personal point of view is not to find out and call my grandpa a racist piece of shit (I loved him and he loved the hell out of me but, if I found out he was a Grand Wizard I wouldn't be shocked. Lol), but to understand why decisions were made and learn from them.

I believe studying why humans do what they do isn't that difficult, as we have a pretty basic need system. Simplistically it's follow the money/path needed to take for prosperity. It's human nature to follow it (and do terrible things to achieve it).

There's nothing wrong in my POV of acknowledging that bad things happened to get us where we are.

We're not going back either.

However we can learn the whys, ask ourselves if there were better options and overall how we could have done things better to help guide us going forward.

Again my grandpa had some serious hate towards blacks, minorities and immigrants but it wasn't passed down to my dad which wasn't passed down to me because my father was able to sell to me a better narrative based on studying my grandpa's behavior.

I don't hate my grandfather, I loved the hell out of him and was with him when he took his final breath. But yeah, he was crazy racist especially through the lens of today (which also needs to be understood IMO).

I guess I feel the 'they're teaching kids to hate America' is analogist to my cousin's telling me that I hate my grandpa because I said he was pretty outwardly racist, but then mentioned he grew up in the depression broke as hell fighting for every morsel that he got.

And I wouldn't have had the life I had without him surviving and fighting which I'm so grateful for and love him for.....but he was racist as f#$k. That's just a fact and it doesn't offend me.

 

[mcmurtry66]

AH... People in UK recognize an IU hat, may despise it, but they understand it. I'd wear mine there proudly, all day long.

People in FL see a red hat, don't know what IU is, don't recognize the logo, don't know the team colors, and think it looks like a MAGA hat. It appears to them, at first glance, that you are wearing a MAGA hat, which is pretty much the equivalent of you wearing a swastika.

AH... People in UK recognize an IU hat, may despise it, but they understand it. I'd wear mine there proudly, all day long.

People in FL see a red hat, don't know what IU is, don't recognize the logo, don't know the team colors, and think it looks like a MAGA hat. It appears to them, at first glance, that you are wearing a MAGA hat, which is pretty much the equivalent of you wearing a swastika.

maga is the notion that times were better. life was more affordable. manufacturing took place here. the working class, blue collar folks didn't feel less than or left out. there isn't a laborer on earth i wouldn't rather spend time with than your creepy, nerdy ass in a lab coat with piss stains and your covid mask on. you are one gross, creepy pussy. it would be great fun to slap you around

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

maga is the notion that times were better. life was more affordable. manufacturing took place here. the working class, blue collar folks didn't feel less than or left out. there isn't a laborer on earth i wouldn't rather spend time with than you're creepy, nerdy ass in a lab coat with piss pits and your mask on. you are one gross, creepy pussy

Exactly. MAGA is the notion that it used to be better. And that's a problem. Because things aren't perfect now, but they absolutely, positively, did not used to be better.

 

[mcmurtry66]

Exactly. MAGA is the notion that it used to be better. And that's a problem. Because things aren't perfect now, but they absolutely, positively, did not used to be better.

i don't know that it's true that things weren't better. what i do know is that trump was full of shit and there's no bringing it back. i know my dad came back from vietnam and drove a dump truck and my mom stayed home, and we had two late model cars, and i went to a private high school. that wouldn't happen today. in many ways things were better. i just don't think it's possible to go back, for myriad reasons. unskilled folks are fooked going forward it seems. and that's a large, impt segment of society

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

That's 180 degrees opposite to the belief inherent in the slogan "Make America Great AGAIN"

The presence of the word "again" means that it is NOT GREAT NOW and that we need to roll back the clocks and calendars to those glorious days when we were. Presumably... when there were not so many uppity N-words and gays around and the women would stay home, shut up, and make you your sandwich. You know, MAGA dream land.

Well... you ain't getting that. We made America greater by starting to overcome our past failings. The first step was facing up to them.

What did Bill Clinton mean when he used the same phrase, word for word, during his campaign for President in ‘92 and again when he campaigned for Hillary Clinton in the primary in 2008?

 

[zeke4ahs]

I do like your IU basketball analogy, as I think it's a pretty concise summary of the two thought processes.

I can also get on board with the criticism that we aren't celebrating the wins as a country as much as we should. As a lib, I'm hard wired to celebrate the wins and accent the positive.

The flip side of that is taking offense at having a serious discussions about our history. My personal point of view is not to find out and call my grandpa a racist piece of shit (I loved him and he loved the hell out of me but, if I found out he was a Grand Wizard I wouldn't be shocked. Lol), but to understand why decisions were made and learn from them.

I believe studying why humans do what they do isn't that difficult, as we have a pretty basic need system. Simplistically it's follow the money/path needed to take for prosperity. It's human nature to follow it (and do terrible things to achieve it).

There's nothing wrong in my POV of acknowledging that bad things happened to get us where we are.

We're not going back either.

However we can learn the whys, ask ourselves if there were better options and overall how we could have done things better to help guide us going forward.

Again my grandpa had some serious hate towards blacks, minorities and immigrants but it wasn't passed down to my dad which wasn't passed down to me because my father was able to sell to me a better narrative based on studying my grandpa's behavior.

I don't hate my grandfather, I loved the hell out of him and was with him when he took his final breath. But yeah, he was crazy racist especially through the lens of today (which also needs to be understood IMO).

I guess I feel the 'they're teaching kids to hate America' is analogist to my cousin's telling me that I hate my grandpa because I said he was pretty outwardly racist, but then mentioned he grew up in the depression broke as hell fighting for every morsel that he got.

And I wouldn't have had the life I had without him surviving and fighting which I'm so grateful for and love him for.....but he was racist as f#$k. That's just a fact and it doesn't offend me.

I was always so proud of my dad and I wish I had told him. His dad was so racist. Wouldn’t cheer for sporting teams if there were too many blacks. Wouldn’t let cafeteria employees carry his tray because they put their thumbs in his mashed potatoes! Saw a picture of my sister with a black friend and lectured her. But my dad moved well beyond that and was cordial and friendly with my black friends and guys I dated. He grew up in a very small town but I think his college experience changed him.

 

[outside shooter]

What did Clinton mean when he used the same phrase, word for word during his campaign for President in ‘92 and again when he campaigned for HRC in the primary in 2008?

I don't know, I never voted for any Dems in '92 or 2008 and as I recall I didn't really focus on slogans and dumb ditties.

 

[TommyCracker]

Alright Mo, I watched it. Here are ten thoughts. All were mentioned. Mind you, I don't know everything about slavery but this video sure as hell doesn't either.

1. Slavery has bene around for eons

1. No shit.

2. Slavery was generally not racist

1. I mean, the video uses the example of peoples in the Balkans during ancient times being enslaved by both Europeans and Arabs alike. While the video can say it's "not racist", I don't think that mattered in antiquity. Romans enslaved all kinds of people mostly for not being Roman. Racism as we understand it today probably wasn't understood as such 1500 years ago.

3. African slaves didn't enter the Western hemisphere until 600 years after European slavery.

1. No shit x 2. Euros didn't even get here until the 15th century.

4. Africans were still enslaving other Africans as late as 1891

1. Ok. What does that have to do with America

5. Black people enslaved other black people

1. We already covered this ground. But, duh.

6. White people didn't enslave anybody in Africa.

1. And Tim Cook doesn't mine the minerals in Africa or build the chips in Taiwan for an iPhone. What's the video's point here?

7. Death rates were the same for both whites and black on the return trips from Africa

1. Firstly, what the actual f*ck does this matter?
2. Of course the crew protected the cargo. Didn't you see The Perfect Storm?
3. And, lastly, I'm entirely certain those numbers are correct. I'm sure no slaves were dumped overboard. Ever. Certainly not without the white crew documenting such.

8. Those poor white people who bought the slaves didn't know what those slaves had been through to even become slaves.

1. GTFOH with that sob story, Karen looking, victimizing, bullshit.

9. There were thousand's of black commercial slave owners in the antebellum south.

1. I get that it's Encyclopedia.com but I'll let you stand this one up on your own

2. That "thousands" likely includes many, many benevolent black slave holders.

10. Slavery only existed in the USA for a short period of time. Much shorter than other countries.

1. No shit x 3. Let's do the math. If we use 1776, because that's generally the founding, yeah it's a pretty short period. Hell, even if we use 1619 that's under 250 years. But guess what? just like point #3, DUH. People besides indigenous peoples didn't even get here until the 1500's (en masse)

I like this feisty version!

I think I like the funny, self deprecating version a little better tho but this was good stuff.

Well done.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

AH... People in Kentucky recognize an IU hat, may despise it, but they understand it. I'd wear mine there proudly, all day long.

People in FL see a red hat, don't know what IU is, don't recognize the logo, don't know the team colors, and think it looks like a MAGA hat. It appears to them, at first glance, that you are wearing a MAGA hat, which is pretty much the equivalent of you wearing a swastika.

I’ll be at The Players in March. I’ll wear an IU cap at least one day without any worry whatever that some moron might think I’m a Trumpster or something. You let someone appropriate a color to the point you won’t wear it, that’s on you, and it’s very wimpy. Don’t be a wimp.

 

[TommyCracker]

I was always so proud of my dad and I wish I had told him. His dad was so racist. Wouldn’t cheer for sporting teams if there were too many blacks. Wouldn’t let cafeteria employees carry his tray because they put their thumbs in his mashed potatoes! Saw a picture of my sister with a black friend and lectured her. But my dad moved well beyond that and was cordial and friendly with my black friends and guys I dated. He grew up in a very small town but I think his college experience changed him.

It really is quite incredible how so many boomer parents were able to recognize and change gears. Quite incredible.

I have no idea how my parents broke it as both of my grandparents were.

I don't want to damn my grandparents, I want to understand why.

I think I have a decent idea... depression, broke as hell, grew up in a different time, disgusted with the cultural shift of the 60's, pissed off that the soft, pampered pussy boomers were coming into power. They also believed we were getting away from God, in the great replacement theory of minorities, global population theory, aids was 'sent by God to rid the earth of fags', and there was a new world order that controlled everything in a secret society which I now believe was their way to say 'the jews'.

So yeah, same as it ever was.

That being said, I have no doubt my niece and nephew think I'm homophobic as hell so hopefully they can break that chain of gay and dick jokes from me. Lol

 

[UncleMark]

...and the women would stay home, shut up, and make you your sandwich. You know, MAGA dream land.

If only people would switch to Linux.

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

If only people would switch to Linux.

Does that mean you have super powers for 15 minutes? or something.

 

[stollcpa]

I didn't say there was anything wrong. But the over the top "patriotic displays" that have permeated the culture are nothing more than virtue signaling... which I'm told is not to be taken seriously.

Some folks are so sick of the woke left that they wear MAGA stuff just to irritate them.

I have a golf buddy who’s self made multimillionaire. He’s originally from small town in Northern New York. He has a MAGA Head Cover for his Driver in his golf bag. He isn’t a right wing nut. He despises the left. The Head Cover is just to say FU.

 

[UncleMark]

I have a golf buddy who’s self made multimillionaire. He’s originally from small town in Northern New York. He has a MAGA Head Cover for his Driver in his golf bag. He isn’t a right wing nut. He despises the left. The Head Cover is just to say FU.

Sounds like a douche.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Sounds like a douche.

It's probably McNutt.

 

[UncleMark]

Does that mean you have super powers for 15 minutes? or something.

If you're running Linux, sure.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

The issue is creating a fabrication that hides/doesn't acknowledge and therefore does a piss poor job in effectively explaining why we did/or had flaws from a constructive way because of a nationalistic belief that we are 100% inherently great and if you don't agree you are an enemy and traitor that hates America and Americans.

Several points here.

First, nobody denies racism, or slavery, and how that affected and affects people in real time. But the debate has changed, not to be more accurate, but to be more political. Post civil war America is one conspicuous case in point. The Union, led by Lincoln, saw reunification and moving America forward together so important that they issued pardons and gave amnesty to the rebellious offenders. Fast forward to the 21st century and we have many in the left ripping open the civil war and slavery wounds by using words like “traitor,” “insurrectionists” and “slaveholder” to describe those to whom we gave pardons and amnesty to 150 years ago. For what purpose? The purpose is current politics, not to acknowledge our past.

Second, the derision directed towards our past leaders is selective, and the selection is based on current politics. FDR was easily the most racist President in the 19th and 20th centuries. He gets a pass. JFK was a notorious philander. He also gets a pass. I understand,the argument that that those defects were not relevant to their respective accomplishments. Ok, fine. We don’t we give similar consideration to the FF’s instead of removing their statues and changing names.

Trird, you have repeatedly used the word “nationalist” in a pejorative fashion. There is nothing wrong or immoral about being a nationalist. In fact there are Benefits. That’s not to say that the concept of nationalism cannot be overdone, but that doesn’t mean ita bad as a stand alone concept.

Conservative collectivism designed to keep the masses dumb. Again it's a bedrock of every totalitarian society.

I have no idea what you mean here other than slinging shit. Conservatives have been deep advocates for education reform for decades. The left/democrats oppose that. I don’t think you want to argue we have a world-class education system.

As you were previously called out, the maga catch phase isn't Make America Great (that goes against the nationalistic believe that we are always great, do you think we're not you American hating traitor).

Try again. This time read my post first.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Exactly. MAGA is the notion that it used to be better. And that's a problem. Because things aren't perfect now, but they absolutely, positively, did not used to be better.

I think it depends on what you're talking about and where you sit.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

Exactly. MAGA is the notion that it used to be better. And that's a problem. Because things aren't perfect now, but they absolutely, positively, did not used to be better.

Or, and hear me out here, it’s a stupid campaign slogan meant to convey that the previous administration made America worse and electing Trump would bring it back to greatness.

What you’re doing here is what you so often complain about everyone else doing.

You are ascribing the worst of motives as a matter of course to something instead of seeing it for what it was obviously intended to be.

The cosmics and outside shooters of the world will always do that.

You’re smarter than that.

Or at least, you should be.

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

I think it depends on what you're talking about and where you sit.

Or, and hear me out here, it’s a stupid campaign slogan meant to convey that the previous administration made America worse and electing Trump would bring it back to greatness.

What you’re doing here is what you so often complain about everyone else doing.

You are ascribing the worst of motives as a matter of course to something instead of seeing it for what it was obviously intended to be.

The cosmics and outside shooters of the world will always do that.

You’re smarter than that.

Or at least, you should be.

No, it doesn't matter where you sit, and no, I'm not doing any of that. The world is better now than it was way back then. It sucks, but it's far better. That's simply a fact.

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

No, it doesn't matter where you sit, and no, I'm not doing any of that. The world is better now than it was way back then. It sucks, but it's far better. That's simply a fact.

So is the world better now, after 4 years of Trump and Covid, then it was in 2016?

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

No, it doesn't matter where you sit, and no, I'm not doing any of that. The world is better now than it was way back then. It sucks, but it's far better. That's simply a fact.

Did you even read what I wrote?

You honestly believe that the slogan was referring to back in the days of slavery?

Or was it referring to the ineptitude of the Obama administration?

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

So is the world better now, after 4 years of Trump and Covid, then it was in 2016?

If you think MAGA are talking about what life was like four years ago, you're an idiot. I know for a fact you're not.

 

[CO. Hoosier]

" One might recognize that our national sin was not some sideshow to our national greatness, but actually a huge, cosmic-level sin that affected millions of lives.

When a couple tries to put their marriage back together, nothing is gained by dwelling on past infidelities. Nobody is arguing we deny past history, warts and all. The question is what is the path forward and how much of a role should dwelling in the past influence the future. It seems to me with people like Kendi and DiAngelo leading the way, we are too focused on past racism and that holds us back in overcoming racism. Along the way, some now argue that we cannot ever overcome racism. . The Democrats are a little different in that they exploit past racism and slavery as a means to accumulate and hold political power in the present day. Then they smugly say they simply acknowledge our past sins. That’s worse,

 

[anon_6hv78pr714xta]

Did you even read what I wrote?

You honestly believe that the slogan was referring to back in the days of slavery?

Or was it referring to the ineptitude of the Obama administration?

I'd hazard a guess that most people who think of when America was great in the MAGA crowd are thinking the '80s under Reagan. Certainly pre-2001 and our misadventures in the Middle East.

 

[mcmurtry66]

No, it doesn't matter where you sit, and no, I'm not doing any of that. The world is better now than it was way back then. It sucks, but it's far better. That's simply a fact.

Did you even read what I wrote?

You honestly believe that the slogan was referring to back in the days of slavery?

Or was it referring to the ineptitude of the Obama administration?

I think it goes farther back. Our parents’ time. When manufacturers and industry were here. When people worked at factories and made a good living. When the American dream felt more attainable. When times were better for the average Joe. When a college degree wasn’t required. Not slavery. Not race. The American dream. And it’s true. When the average new car is $50k we have problems

 

[TheOriginalHappyGoat]

Did you even read what I wrote?

You honestly believe that the slogan was referring to back in the days of slavery?

Or was it referring to the ineptitude of the Obama administration?

If you think the Obama administration was inept, that's silly. If you think that's what MAGA refers to, that's even sillier.

 

[stollcpa]

Sounds like a douche.

That douche is first in line donating money to needy causes. I know numerous instances, some I was personally involved in where he stepped up when he didn’t know the person involved.

When he sold his business a few years ago he gave enormous bonuses to all employees out of his own sales proceeds. He never told me. A mutual friend’s son in law had only worked for the business a little over a year. He got a six figure bonus and was shocked.

He’s a great guy. This left wing bullshit gets old.

 

[Hoopsdoc1978]

If you think the Obama administration was inept, that's silly. If you think that's what MAGA refers to, that's even sillier.

Jesus goat.

It’s a damned political campaign.

Do you think those are generally even handed and fair in their appraisal of the administration they’re trying to replace?

And I said absolutely nothing about my opinion of Obama.

You’re still doing it.

Maybe I gave you to much credit.

 

[zeke4ahs]

Some folks are so sick of the woke left that they wear MAGA stuff just to irritate them.

I have a golf buddy who’s self made multimillionaire. He’s originally from small town in Northern New York. He has a MAGA Head Cover for his Driver in his golf bag. He isn’t a right wing nut. He despises the left. The Head Cover is just to say FU.

If he despises the left then he’s right wing. And possibly a nut.