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Has patriotism in the U.S. become political?

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the truth is the MAGA means making America great.
It's not the MAG movement. You forget the last "A". You want America to be great AGAIN. Like it used to be, apparently. Roll back the clock & calendar.

What idyllic time period are we supposedly returning to? Jim Crow? Reconstruction? Slavery?

What does your slogan mean? If you can't answer that simple question, then there's a problem
 
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There is a tendency among some members of the Republican tribe - and this predates MAGA by quite a bit - to characterize Democrats as inherently unamerican. This politicization of patriotism only lands if that characterization speaks to you.
Oh please. The effort to disparage and ridicule how The United States was conceived and born, and those individuals who accomplished that is leftist ideology. That attitude may or may not include a majority of the left/democrats, but whatever the actual percentage is, the effort is 100% left/Democrat.

Patriotism means different things for different people. But I think one aspect of common ground should be respect for, and approval of how we came to be together with some admiration for those who took substantial risks to accomplish that.
 
It's not the MAG movement. You forget the last "A". You want America to be great AGAIN. Like it used to be, apparently. Roll back the clock & calendar.

What idyllic time period are we supposedly returning to? Jim Crow? Reconstruction? Slavery?

What does your slogan mean? If you can't answer that simple question, then there's a problem
It means the agenda of the Trump Administration , including paying special attention to urban (minority) economic development, minority urban education reform, and significant criminal justice and sentencing reform.
 
If I saw a neighbor off in the distance wearing a red hat, without being able to make out the logo, the thought would cross my mind that maybe I have a MAGA bigot for a neighbor. Sad but true. It's almost like a white hooded robe.
That’s reaction is 100% on you. I bet you use the ignore button too.
 
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Oh please. The effort to disparage and ridicule how The United States was conceived and born, and those individuals who accomplished that is leftist ideology. That attitude may or may not include a majority of the left/democrats, but whatever the actual percentage is, the effort is 100% left/Democrat.

Patriotism means different things for different people. But I think one aspect of common ground should be respect for, and approval of how we came to be together with some admiration for those who took substantial risks to accomplish that.
You're doing exactly what I said.
 
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I can’t believe you can ever be a credible expert when you make associations like that.
You can read about my successful expert testimony on one drug patent infringement case ~10 years ago, in at least one patent law textbook. I was sent an excerpt by the attorneys.
 
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I prefer it backwards.
Figures

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It means the agenda of the Trump Administration , including paying special attention to urban (minority) economic development, minority urban education reform, and significant criminal justice and sentencing reform.
@outside shooter

Nothing sums up your posts in this thread better than your emoji.
 
But I think one aspect of common ground should be respect for, and approval of how we came to be together with some admiration for those who took substantial risks to accomplish that.
As long as the "why did Europeans come to America" includes those suffering religious persecution, seeking a station in life beyond that of their forefathers in England, Ireland, Holland, etc., or looking to escape the European monarchies to pursue a more perfect form of government in the New World.

AND, also includes those who sought solely to enrich themselves at the expense of a great many millions of Africans, Caribbean islanders, and Native Americans, etc. And there were a great many of those types of people including many of the Founders.

Teaching that isn't destroying the American mythos in my eyes.
 
If I saw a neighbor off in the distance wearing a red hat, without being able to make out the logo, the thought would cross my mind that maybe I have a MAGA bigot for a neighbor. Sad but true. It's almost like a white hooded robe.
You wouldn't want to know what he was thinking when he saw you looking his way.
 
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i keep thinking about brad. if he's out there on the streets today in a flat bill. nervous. but also kind of excited. he can't bring it home. obviously. he's going to have to just leave it at the office. texted his wife he has a late meeting. then a buddy to go grab a drink. there's nothing wrong with having a drink with a friend....
 
As long as the "why did Europeans come to America" includes those suffering religious persecution, seeking a station in life beyond that of their forefathers in England, Ireland, Holland, etc., or looking to escape the European monarchies to pursue a more perfect form of government in the New World.
AND, also includes those who sought solely to enrich themselves at the expense of a great many millions of Africans, Caribbean islanders, and Native Americans, etc. And there were a great many of those types of people including many of the Founders.

Teaching that isn't destroying the American mythos in my eyes.
You need a history lesson in Slavery

 
As long as the "why did Europeans come to America" includes those suffering religious persecution, seeking a station in life beyond that of their forefathers in England, Ireland, Holland, etc., or looking to escape the European monarchies to pursue a more perfect form of government in the New World.

You need a history lesson in Slavery

Hahahahahaha.

No
 
So you watched an 8+ minute video in less than a minute? You’re talented.
Does it tell me about the black folks that profited off of selling black people? Quick, find me a fainting couch. Do tell sir, who were they selling them to exactly?
 
As long as the "why did Europeans come to America" includes those suffering religious persecution, seeking a station in life beyond that of their forefathers in England, Ireland, Holland, etc., or looking to escape the European monarchies to pursue a more perfect form of government in the New World.

AND, also includes those who sought solely to enrich themselves at the expense of a great many millions of Africans, Caribbean islanders, and Native Americans, etc. And there were a great many of those types of people including many of the Founders.

Teaching that isn't destroying the American mythos in my eyes.
Strongly disagree with your second paragraph. Make that very strongly. The mythios of those coming here solely to exploit peons to enrich themselves is way way oversold. While it is an undeniable part of history, it’s not nearly as major as we now like to believe and teach. The story of America is much more closely related to the characters Steinbeck wrote about than what Howard Zinn wrote about. Even Michener’s characters and actual events are closer to our history; and Michener pulled no punches when he wrote about the exploiters.

When Steinbeck received the Nobel prize for literature he said:

the writer is delegated to declare and to celebrate man's proven capacity for greatness of heart and spirit—for gallantry in defeat, for courage, compassion and love. In the endless war against weakness and despair, these are the bright rally flags of hope and of emulation. I hold that a writer who does not believe in the perfectibility of man has no dedication nor any membership in literature.
The story of America is the story of individuals at war with weakness and drepair. It’s the story of our proven capacity for greatness, a capacity of common every-day Americans. Instead of celebrating that individual history, we instead now focus on condemning those few whom we blame. We don’t teach, or even think about, our capacity for greatness.

This is what the “G” on those hats really means.
 
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As long as the "why did Europeans come to America" includes those suffering religious persecution, seeking a station in life beyond that of their forefathers in England, Ireland, Holland, etc., or looking to escape the European monarchies to pursue a more perfect form of government in the New World.

AND, also includes those who sought solely to enrich themselves at the expense of a great many millions of Africans, Caribbean islanders, and Native Americans, etc. And there were a great many of those types of people including many of the Founders.

Teaching that isn't destroying the American mythos in my eyes.
Nationalist collective thinking is the bedrock of pretty much every totalitarian society/cult/government movement, even in fiction, so this discussion always gets my hackles up.

Critical thinking is a great thing imo, it's how we understand our past, acknowledge our past and improve upon our past.

Indoctrinating something as silly as George Washington was so morally perfect that he never told a lie to something much darker like the South were fighting for states rights is nationalistic propaganda that retards the critical thinking that's needed to make progress.

You can love your country while acknowledging our history wasn't all lollypops, snowballs and unicorns.

When someone screams 'why do you hate America' to 'they are teaching kids to hate America!!!' it's hard for me to not shut off and dismiss them as just nationalistic propagandists.

My eyes hurt for how much they are rolling.
 
Does it tell me about the black folks that profited off of selling black people? Quick, find me a fainting couch. Do tell sir, who were they selling them to exactly?
Just watch the video. What are you afraid of?
 
Nationalist collective thinking is the bedrock of pretty much every totalitarian society/cult/government movement, even in fiction, so this discussion always gets my hackles up.

Critical thinking is a great thing imo, it's how we understand our past, acknowledge our past and improve upon our past.

Indoctrinating something as silly as George Washington was so morally perfect that he never told a lie to something much darker like the South were fighting for states rights is nationalistic propaganda that retards the critical thinking that's needed to make progress.

You can love your country while acknowledging our history wasn't all lollypops, snowballs and unicorns.

When someone screams 'why do you hate America' to 'they are teaching kids to hate America!!!' it's hard for me to not shut off and dismiss them as just nationalistic propagandists.

My eyes hurt for how much they are rolling.
First, I don’t think you know what critical thinking is.

Second, and to a much larger and more important point, the comment about hating America” is not about America, it’s about Americans. For every robber Barron there are thousands and thousands of Americans who in their own way sought and found greatness. By teaching Howard Zinnism, we are stripping away the inherent abilities of all of us and substituting victimization leading to despair and hopelessness. Individual self-worth is not a government program or social studies subject. It’s a human trait that must be nurtured.
 
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It's actually a divorce movie. The sequel to Kramer v. Kramer, if you will, only with better acting in the second one.
And a much better soundtrack:

Probably a generational thing, but it's hard to beat the acting of Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep compared to Stallone, although I'll grant you the soundtrack...

I don't watch many movies in general and Stallone movies in particular, but people tell me Copland is Stallone's best actual acting. And as I'm sure Morrison and Brockway will attest, having a scene where Stallone listens to Stolen Car, by itself makes for a memorable soundtrack...

 
I saw these cool Americana caps (Aloha, thought of you on the 1812 cap):


I'd like to buy one. But where I live, I have to think about looking MAGA, which is sad.

I already wear a South Bend Cubs hat with the logo of the bear in stars and stripes, and I get looks from people. I think it started in 2020 after the George Floyd incident and protests, and it seems to me that in certain deep blue areas, patriotism is now frowned upon. I think the woke (or call them those heavily invested in the the current social justice movement if you hate the term) frown upon patriotism, and so do a lot of young people. (By the way, I'm not accusing anyone on here of being ashamed of the U.S. or frowning upon patriotism and don't think anyone does).

There are a lot of reasons to be critical of the U.S. past and present (and each party's policies and actions are to blame), and I am critical of it. But I still identify as an American.

I think I like the hat that says "Liberty" in the crescent the best, in terms of style and symbol. But two things make me pause: (1) Liberty has become the buzz word of the anti-maskers to such an extent some of the left seem to openly mock the term; and (2) the symbol was created and used by American Revolutionaries in South Carolina--so they were fighting for liberty while simultaneously supporting a system of slavery. That bothers me, although I guess it's a great reminder of the contradiction at the heart of the U.S. founding.
I’m buying that cap. I already fly a DONT GIVE UP THE SHIP flag on occasion.
 
What’s wrong with wearing a red hat, one with flag on it or flying a flag from a pole in front of your residence?

I didn't say there was anything wrong. But the over the top "patriotic displays" that have permeated the culture are nothing more than virtue signaling... which I'm told is not to be taken seriously.
 
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First, I don’t think you know what critical thinking is.

Second, and to a much larger and more important point, the comment about hating America” is not about America, it’s about Americans. For every robber Barron there are thousands and thousands of Americans who in their own way sought and found greatness. By teaching Howard Zinnism, we are stripping away the inherent abilities of all of us and substituting victimization leading to despair and hopelessness. Individual self-worth is not a government program or social studies subject. It’s a human trait that must be nurtured.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to discuss/teach what makes America and the idea of America amazingly great. That's patriotism.

The issue is creating a fabrication that hides/doesn't acknowledge and therefore does a piss poor job in effectively explaining why we did/or had flaws from a constructive way because of a nationalistic belief that we are 100% inherently great and if you don't agree you are an enemy and traitor that hates America and Americans.

Conservative collectivism designed to keep the masses dumb. Again it's a bedrock of every totalitarian society.

Do we need to take two minutes a day to hurl insults at the political ideologies that aren't like ours like they did in 1984? That's building a nationalistic belief system.

As you were previously called out, the maga catch phase isn't Make America Great (that goes against the nationalistic believe that we are always great, do you think we're not you American hating traitor).

It's not Make America Greater. I can't imagine anyone having any issue in that.

It's not Make America Greater Together. I mean who could disagree with that?

It's Make America Great AGAIN. Again changes the entire message and calls on a nationalistic belief that life was much better before something that you believe culturally shifted.

I think we both know what that is as it's the core tenants of the nationalistic fear mongering right wing machine, same as it ever was.
 
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to discuss/teach what makes America and great. That's patriotism.

The issue is creating a fabrication that hides/doesn't acknowledge and therefore does a piss poor job in effectively explaining why we did/or had flaws from a constructive way because of a nationalistic belief that we are 100% inherently great and if you don't agree you are an enemy and traitor that hates America and Americans.

Conservative collectivism designed to keep the masses dumb. Again it's a bedrock of every totalitarian society.

Do we need to take two minutes a day to hurl insults at the political ideologies that aren't like ours like they did in 1984? That's building a nationalistic belief system.

As you were previously called out, the maga catch phase isn't Make America Great (that goes against the nationalistic believe that we are great).

It's not Make America Greater. I can't imagine anyone having any issue in that.

It's not Make America Greater Together. I mean who could disagree with that?

It's Make America Great AGAIN. Again changes the entire message and calls on a nationalistic belief that life was much better before something that you believe culturally shifted.

I think we both know what that is as it's the core tenants of the nationalistic fear mongering right wing machine, same as it ever was.
If someone finds the idea that we are capable of making our own country even better than it already is as somehow unpatriotic, that's a pretty clear signal that they aren't longing for greatness - they are longing for the comfort of regression.
 
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to discuss/teach what makes America and the idea of America amazingly great. That's patriotism.

The issue is creating a fabrication that hides/doesn't acknowledge and therefore does a piss poor job in effectively explaining why we did/or had flaws from a constructive way because of a nationalistic belief that we are 100% inherently great and if you don't agree you are an enemy and traitor that hates America and Americans.

Conservative collectivism designed to keep the masses dumb. Again it's a bedrock of every totalitarian society.

Do we need to take two minutes a day to hurl insults at the political ideologies that aren't like ours like they did in 1984? That's building a nationalistic belief system.

As you were previously called out, the maga catch phase isn't Make America Great (that goes against the nationalistic believe that we are always great, do you think we're not you American hating traitor).

It's not Make America Greater. I can't imagine anyone having any issue in that.

It's not Make America Greater Together. I mean who could disagree with that?

It's Make America Great AGAIN. Again changes the entire message and calls on a nationalistic belief that life was much better before something that you believe culturally shifted.

I think we both know what that is as it's the core tenants of the nationalistic fear mongering right wing machine, same as it ever was.
I think the difference is on the emphasis. My perception is that the "left", for lack of a better term, prefers to emphasize what went wrong. And really that is almost entirely around slavery and the black experience in this country. It has expanded to cover other non-white groups with grievances, real and imagined, but it is mostly the idea of slavery. So that is the lens by which we are judging things now. Your own post even hints at it. "That there nationalism is really about something else donchyaknow."

The conservatives, by and large, will acknowledge that bad stuff happened but will say, "but look at all of the positives that flowed from those flawed individuals and the system they created is among the best in allowing for course correction." We all have warts but what an awesome and lucky place to have been born.

Hope and Change vs. Make it Great Again. You think it is mostly broke and needs a fixin' and racism and they think it is mostly good and your fixin' has gone too far and white people beating the racism drum so often are the most tedious people on the planet.
 
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Probably a generational thing, but it's hard to beat the acting of Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep compared to Stallone, although I'll grant you the soundtrack...

I don't watch many movies in general and Stallone movies in particular, but people tell me Copland is Stallone's best actual acting. And as I'm sure Morrison and Brockway will attest, having a scene where Stallone listens to Stolen Car, by itself makes for a memorable soundtrack...

I'm enjoying Tulsa King. Seems to be a perfect casting for Stallone.
 
The conservatives, by and large, will acknowledge that bad stuff happened but will say, "but look at all of the positives that flowed from those flawed individuals and the system they created is among the best in allowing for course correction." We all have warts but what an awesome and lucky place to have been born.
One might argue that you have that exactly backwards, that the conservatives would downplay just how bad the bad was. One might remember Lincoln's words on the morality of the Civil War: "Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." One might recognize that our national sin was not some sideshow to our national greatness, but actually a huge, cosmic-level sin that affected millions of lives.

America is great. America has been great. American can become even greater. I don't need to downplay the horrible things America has allowed to believe those three things.
 
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