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Fixing Inequality Without Hate

MyTeamIsOnTheFloor

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The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.



 
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The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.



That’s teddy roosevelt’s great great grandson
 
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The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.




I watched this the other night. His thesis is that we are essentially a different nation under a new Constitution, ratified in 1868, and that it is those Founders we should be looking to rather than those of 1787.
 
I watched this the other night. His thesis is that we are essentially a different nation under a new Constitution, ratified in 1868, and that it is those Founders we should be looking to rather than those of 1787.

I think he is right, a huge cultural change came from the ACW. I cannot recall the author, somewhere there was a mention that pre-Civil War people travelling overseas from the US would say they were Michiganders or Virginians, or whatever. After the ACW it became pretty universal to say "American."

Our understanding of our nation, of our ideals, changed because of Grant v Lee.
 
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The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.




please assign us more hour long shows to watch, with no synopsis..
 
The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.



There is so much to say about this, I don’t know where to begin. Full disclosure, I didn’t listen to the whole thing. I’d much rather be able to read it so I can skip the noise.

First, I absolutely agree that the 14th Amendment changed the constitution in a fundamental way. That isn’t to say the 14th made the 1787 Constitution irrelevant, or the people who crafted it irrelevant in any way. Without the 1787 constitution, there is no 14th amendment, there probably is no United States as we know it.

I also wholeheartedly agree a “national story” is important for a country for the reasons Roosevelt discussed. The civil war, the Reconstruction Amendments, and the Reconstruction era receive short shrift in our national story. For me the most important point of reconstruction was the amnesty and pardons issued to the members of the confederacy. That was a clear signal to all of us that the war was over, slavery was over, and it was time to move forward together. We didn’t do a good job of that, but it’s undeniable that we steadily improved over more than 100 years. Now we are devolving, dismantling and disintegrating that progress. This seems to to be deliberate for petty reasons of power, influence, control and even money. Our national story is disintegrating not because it’s a bad story, it’s disintegrating because some people find purpose in perpetual divisions which a single national story is inapposite.

Today is Lincoln’s birthday. During the Douglas debates Lincoln pointed out that that equality principles of the Declaration of Independence indeed include the negro race. For him, who set in motion the post civil war course for the United States, the DoI was as highly relevant. Lincoln also pointed out that part of equality is equal treatment, not special leniency. Lincoln was concerned about the soft bigotry of low expectations 150 years before Bush coined the phrase. So much of todays politics enshrines an assumed inequality of races.

Lincoln:

“That is their argument, and this argument of the Judge [Douglas] is the same old serpent that says you work and I eat, you toil and I will enjoy the fruits of it. Turn in whatever way you will—whether it come from the mouth of a King, an excuse for enslaving the people of his country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old serpent, and I hold if that course of argumentation that is made for the purpose of convincing the public mind that we should not care about this, should be granted, it does not stop with the negro. I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it where will it stop. If one man says it does not mean a negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the Statute book, in which we find it and tear it out! Who is so bold as to do it! [Voices—“me” “no one,” &c.] If it is not true let us tear it out! [cries of “no, no,”] let us stick to it then [cheers], let us stand firmly by it then. [Applause.]”​
 
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For me the most important point of reconstruction was the amnesty and pardons issued to the members of the confederacy. That was a clear signal to all of us that the war was over, slavery was over, and it was time to move forward together.

During the Douglas debates Lincoln pointed out that that equality principles of the Declaration of Independence indeed include the negro race.


amnesty and pardons was a clear signal that actions don't have consequences for the politically powerful.

the Confederate leaders should have been tried and publicly executed, not just for the obvious, but also for what they did to Johnny Reb, 99% of whom never owned a slave and never would, in a sacrifice of the many for the benefit of the wealthy elite.

as for the Declaration of Independence including blacks, what universe was Lincoln living in then, and what universe are you living in now.

while the DOI should have included blacks, obviously it didn't.
 
Today is Lincoln’s birthday. During the Douglas debates Lincoln pointed out that that equality principles of the Declaration of Independence indeed include the negro race.

Doesn't that render the movie 1776 useless? Isn't it true Jefferson wrote a passage on slavery that was removed? If equality included blacks, how did slavery stay allowed?
 
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I think he is right, a huge cultural change came from the ACW. I cannot recall the author, somewhere there was a mention that pre-Civil War people travelling overseas from the US would say they were Michiganders or Virginians, or whatever. After the ACW it became pretty universal to say "American."

Our understanding of our nation, of our ideals, changed because of Grant v Lee.
Overall if they are saying we must ignore the Founding principles of our nation then I would disagree. There are a lot of freedoms in there we enjoy.
 
Doesn't that render the movie 1776 useless? Isn't it true Jefferson wrote a passage on slavery that was removed? If equality included blacks, how did slavery stay allowed?
The North wanted slavery to end but in order for the South to help form the US a precondition of slavery had to remain. The North knew this so they kicked the can down the road on this issue.
 
Post civil war amendments adapted the US Constitution to new realities. Regardless of the assertions about the impact of the civil war, the Federalist Papers still instruct and illuminate the constitution in ways that are still relevant today.
 
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The North wanted slavery to end but in order for the South to help form the US a precondition of slavery had to remain. The North knew this so they kicked the can down the road on this issue.
Pretty short kick.

We never halted the slavery debate.

Northern stares ended slavery
Jefferson prohibited slavery in the Louisiana purchase.
African slave trade ended.
Much federal debate about not expanding slavery and how to end it.
Northern economic pressure on south over slavery
Finally civil War.
 
I watched this the other night. His thesis is that we are essentially a different nation under a new Constitution, ratified in 1868, and that it is those Founders we should be looking to rather than those of 1787.
For judges using originalism, they do look to those in 1868 when interpreting the amendments passed at that time.
 
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For judges using originalism, they do look to those in 1868 when interpreting the amendments passed at that time.
The 14th dramatically expanded the scope of the BOR (actually SCOTUS’ interpretation of the 14th did that) . But that didn’t make the 1787 Constitution irrelevant, actually the 14th expanded the importance of the 1787 constitution.
 
Lincoln also pointed out that part of equality is equal treatment, not special leniency. Lincoln was concerned about the soft bigotry of low expectations 150 years before Bush coined the phrase. So much of todays politics enshrines an assumed inequality of races.
I'm a big fan of Lincoln and he was a complicated man, ahead of his time in some respects, a man firmly of his time in others.

I don't think Lincoln thought black people we equal to white people in intelligence and maybe not morality. He definitely thought of black people as a separate and distinct race (as did 99% of people back then). So I'm not sure Lincoln would be talking about low expectations for black people--he had those himself.

His point, though, was that they were still men and so should be equal under the law.
 
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Pretty short kick.

We never halted the slavery debate.

Northern stares ended slavery
Jefferson prohibited slavery in the Louisiana purchase.
African slave trade ended.
Much federal debate about not expanding slavery and how to end it.
Northern economic pressure on south over slavery
Finally civil War.
As I recall, the NW Ordinance prohibited slavery above the Ohio river too.
 
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Pretty short kick.

We never halted the slavery debate.

Northern stares ended slavery
Jefferson prohibited slavery in the Louisiana purchase.
African slave trade ended.
Much federal debate about not expanding slavery and how to end it.
Northern economic pressure on south over slavery
Finally civil War.
To be clear, the African slave trade did not just end. The U.S. outlawed it in 1808. We actually had naval ships (along with the British) patrolling the Gulf of Mexico and the West African coast to try to catch and punish slavers. But the African slave trade was legal in Brazil and Spanish Caribbean islands well into the 1860s.

The United States is estimated to have imported about 360,000 slaves from Africa, less than 4% of the total brought to the Americas. The U.S. had a unique system because its slave population grew through natural reproduction, unlike other nations, which was clearly one reason for outlawing new slave importation.

 
I'm a big fan of Lincoln and he was a complicated man, ahead of his time in some respects, a man firmly of his time in others.

I don't think Lincoln thought black people we equal to white people in intelligence and maybe not morality. He definitely thought of black people as a separate and distinct race (as did 99% of people back then). So I'm not sure Lincoln would be talking about low expectations for black people--he had those himself.

His point, though, was that they were still men and so should be equal under the law.
It’s a fact that blacks were not educated, mostly primitive, and suffered the ill-effects of slavery. Lincoln wrote about all of this. I’m not sure he thought of blacks as fundamentally of low intelligence. Many people in the skilled trades were slaves, those weren’t dummies. When people say Washington was built be slaves, that’s partly true because slaves knew the trades.
 
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Pretty short kick.

We never halted the slavery debate.

Northern stares ended slavery
Jefferson prohibited slavery in the Louisiana purchase.
African slave trade ended.
Much federal debate about not expanding slavery and how to end it.
Northern economic pressure on south over slavery
Finally civil War.

Short kick, a lot of people were born and died slaves during that time

Add southern states float plans to hire private armies to invade Cuba and central American countries and institute slavery so they have markets.

 
For judges using originalism, they do look to those in 1868 when interpreting the amendments passed at that time.

Roosevelt's argument is less about Constitutional law or interpretation and more about the national narrative, that the reverence shown for the 1787 Founders should be equaled by that shown for the Reconstructionists. It's not, and as shown by the visceral reaction from those like COH, there's no chance they'll even be given their due credit.
 
Pretty short kick.

We never halted the slavery debate.

Northern stares ended slavery
Jefferson prohibited slavery in the Louisiana purchase.
African slave trade ended.
Much federal debate about not expanding slavery and how to end it.
Northern economic pressure on south over slavery
Finally civil War.
Actually it was about a 75 year kick. Add the almost New England succession over the War of 1812 as a precedent for succession and Eli Whitney's cotton gin as other important factors in the war.
 
Roosevelt's argument is less about Constitutional law or interpretation and more about the national narrative, that the reverence shown for the 1787 Founders should be equaled by that shown for the Reconstructionists. It's not, and as shown by the visceral reaction from those like COH, there's no chance they'll even be given their due credit.
Visceral reaction? WTF are you talking about now? (ok, I rose to your dumbass troll) I’ve said for years on this forum that the 14th redefined the US. At the same time, without the 1787 constitution, there is no United Sates as we know it. The founders deserve immense credit for that.
 
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Visceral reaction? WTF are you talking about now?

This is what I'm talking about:

Now we are devolving, dismantling and disintegrating that progress. This seems to to be deliberate for petty reasons of power, influence, control and even money. Our national story is disintegrating not because it’s a bad story, it’s disintegrating because some people find purpose in perpetual divisions which a single national story is inapposite.

You just can't help yourself.
 
This is what I'm talking about:

Now we are devolving, dismantling and disintegrating that progress. This seems to to be deliberate for petty reasons of power, influence, control and even money. Our national story is disintegrating not because it’s a bad story, it’s disintegrating because some people find purpose in perpetual divisions which a single national story is inapposite.

You just can't help yourself.
everyone noticed you said he was visceral, but did not say he was wrong
 
This is what I'm talking about:

Now we are devolving, dismantling and disintegrating that progress. This seems to to be deliberate for petty reasons of power, influence, control and even money. Our national story is disintegrating not because it’s a bad story, it’s disintegrating because some people find purpose in perpetual divisions which a single national story is inapposite.

You just can't help yourself.
Make your case that I’m wrong.
 
The mainstream Dims and Trump-or-none’s just left the building, but maybe the middle will watch and discuss.

This guys mis-perceives some things, but overall is probably not a threat to democracy.

He still leans toward “I’m right - you’re wrong and all fixes should lean my way.” But he at least he has dropped the “you are evil” from the debate.



Did he drop the "you are evil" though? I listened to about 20 minutes and he's talking about how Calhoun and Jefferson Davis were right about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and that that's not a problem for him, because he recognizes those documents as evil, and he says "his" document is the Gettysburg Address. (15:15-16:30). He basically says "oh those Southerners were evil, so their thoughts on the Constitution must be wrong or evil" (uh no, that's an ad hominem argument and logically invalid), but that's only "a problem" if you identify with or say the 1787 Constitution is our founding document. Huh? What does a problem or it being evil have anything to do with whether the Declaration of Independence is a founding document?

I find this just another strain of presentism. The point about history is that you have to look at the context around the documents and the people. They aren't "yours" and "mine"--they were drafted by people 200+ years ago in vastly different situations.

When weaving a national story--or any one, really--I prefer to look at the times, figure out what was good and bad in the document for the people then, and then contemplate how that fits into the story.
 
Did he drop the "you are evil" though? I listened to about 20 minutes and he's talking about how Calhoun and Jefferson Davis were right about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and that that's not a problem for him, because he recognizes those documents as evil, and he says "his" document is the Gettysburg Address. (15:15-16:30). He basically says "oh those Southerners were evil, so their thoughts on the Constitution must be wrong or evil" (uh no, that's an ad hominem argument and logically invalid), but that's only "a problem" if you identify with or say the 1787 Constitution is our founding document. Huh? What does a problem or it being evil have anything to do with whether the Declaration of Independence is a founding document?

I find this just another strain of presentism. The point about history is that you have to look at the context around the documents and the people. They aren't "yours" and "mine"--they were drafted by people 200+ years ago in vastly different situations.

When weaving a national story--or any one, really--I prefer to look at the times, figure out what was good and bad in the document for the people then, and then contemplate how that fits into the story.
Later in, he says his national story is better because the people who have trouble with the narrative that focuses on 1776 and 1787 have a problem with slavery but those who have a problem with his narrative focusing on Reconstruction are Confederates and traitors. So if we have to pick, let's alienate the traitors. Present tense.

Guy went to Harvard and Yale. *Sigh* He's not a very good historian.
 
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Later in, he says his national story is better because the people who have trouble with the narrative that focuses on 1776 and 1787 have a problem with slavery but those who have a problem with his narrative focusing on Reconstruction are Confederates and traitors. So if we have to pick, let's alienate the traitors. Present tense.

Guy went to Harvard and Yale. *Sigh* He's not a very good historian.
Legacy admission
 
Did he drop the "you are evil" though? I listened to about 20 minutes and he's talking about how Calhoun and Jefferson Davis were right about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and that that's not a problem for him, because he recognizes those documents as evil, and he says "his" document is the Gettysburg Address. (15:15-16:30). He basically says "oh those Southerners were evil, so their thoughts on the Constitution must be wrong or evil" (uh no, that's an ad hominem argument and logically invalid), but that's only "a problem" if you identify with or say the 1787 Constitution is our founding document. Huh? What does a problem or it being evil have anything to do with whether the Declaration of Independence is a founding document?

I find this just another strain of presentism. The point about history is that you have to look at the context around the documents and the people. They aren't "yours" and "mine"--they were drafted by people 200+ years ago in vastly different situations.

When weaving a national story--or any one, really--I prefer to look at the times, figure out what was good and bad in the document for the people then, and then contemplate how that fits into the story.
For us modern folks, he tried. He said he felt it was important to present the history of slavery without blaming current society, as just another problem to fix. ”We give gladly to fix hurricane and earthquake damage - we should think about it the same - no fault, just a fix.”

He didn’t talk economics much - his “field“ is Constitutional history, and that limits his base and his answers.

In my view, he undervalues the equal opportunity created by the 1964 and 1965 statutes achieved by MLK, and undervalues (even doubts) King’s commitment to non-violence. His history is as limited sometimes as his economics.
 
Later in, he says his national story is better because the people who have trouble with the narrative that focuses on 1776 and 1787 have a problem with slavery but those who have a problem with his narrative focusing on Reconstruction are Confederates and traitors. So if we have to pick, let's alienate the traitors. Present tense.

Guy went to Harvard and Yale. *Sigh* He's not a very good historian.
Does he believe slavery was a choice we made as a nation?
 
Does he believe slavery was a choice we made as a nation?
He kinda sorta says we chose it thrice. Chose slavery first in 1619, the chose/compromised to keep it in the Constitution, then chose white supremacy and to accept the un-reconstructed effects of slavery post-Civil war rather than keep fighting the Former Confederates.
 
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He kinda sorta says we chose it thrice. Chose slavery first in 1619, the chose/compromised to keep it in the Constitution, then chose white supremacy and to accept the un-reconstructed effects of slavery post-Civil war rather than keep fighting the Former Confederates.
Interesting.

I view slavery as a legacy of the Brits. We were never given a choice.

At the time if the constitution, our choice was a country with the south allowing slavery, or no United States as we now know it. . Ending slavery in the South had to happen by agreement or war, Agreement was never achievable, it took a war. If we had built a country that excluded the slave states, all of history would be different. Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were Virginians. They made enormous contributions to our history and that would have been lost.

The whole concept of “we” is also interesting. We did end slavery in much of the USA and prohibited it in new territories.

In sum, the history of slavery and our founding is complicated and fraught with what-if’s. All this talk about original sin and 1619 oversimplifies the issue and as far as I am concerned serves only simple minds.

Edit: John Marshall was also a Virginian.
 
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