A New Birth Of Freedom - Do We Need One?
- Thread starter MyTeamIsOnTheFloor
- Start date
How nice that you chose friends over family. I'll bet it was embarrassing for you to have your friends see you came from such DNA.
I didn't get to choose who my family was, and I don't have to identify with their beliefs. You'll have to get over it. Not your strong suit.
translation,
"pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".
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and news flash, history isn't always subjective, even if the agendas driving it can be.
one can debate why something happened, but not so much that it happened.
Well, sure, but we're past the point where only the winners get to write about history. It gets a little messier when both sides can interject.
Right now we have a group of people trying to push a homogenized version of history. They don't like their kids question America's greatness. Maybe these kids are learning their parents have very narrow views. So these people are embellishing what is being taught, in some cases flat out making it up.
That discomfort is of no use in history. Can’t fix it, no one alive today has any role in it. An argument that it will keep us from making the same mistakes as it relates to slavery & racism is preposterous. All it does is sow division & reinforce an “us vs them” mentality.
Here is a quote from CO above:
I see nothing good in teaching history intended to make students uncomfortable. History is history. Why should we ever teach 200 year-old history to make those studying that history today uncomfortable?
That sure sounds like learning about slavery would make you uncomfortable you should be able to opt out. Can you put those words in some other context? Whenever he talks about insults, he blames the listener for interpreting a comment as an insult. Well, I'll use that here. If one interprets learning about slavery or the Trail of Tears as being an attack on them, that is their fault. These things should be taught, there is zero reason anyone alive today should feel insulted, hurt, or to blame. No one learning about slavery today had anything to do with it.But all of it explains some of where we are. Because of various laws and customs, Whites have had generations to build and transfer wealth. Blacks have had a generation. That isn't my fault, it isn't your fault, it isn't CO's fault. But it is true and accounts for some of the problems we see today. Not all, some.
perhaps not fully accepting and admitting what happened, and trying to whitewash it, does more to sow division and reinforce "us vs them", than not doing so.
nothing says "us vs them", like "us vs them".
American greatness has important social values. Years ago, I heard a member of the British Parliament interviewed about the social decay in the UK. He assigned part of the problem to continued sniping and degrading of British History. I think there is something to that. Part of nationhood is national pride. This isn’t a right/left thing either. Norway bursts with national pride and it is as left as they come.
Lack of national pride has real consequences:
Our military regularly doesn’t meet recruiting goals.
Most police forces are short of officers.
Confidence in all of government is at historic lows.
Millions of youngsters, mostly in the inter-city, are detached from family, country, or anything else— except gangs.
I think lack of unifying objectives feeds division and tribalism.
Our communities of interest are becoming fragmented and divisive.
To be sure, degrading our history and traditions is not the only issue, the internet is another. But I think our slow degradation of unifying nationalism is taking a toll. One of the traditional purposes of a free public education has been to build a common culture and a strong community. The trend away from that is unmistakable.
Like you? Turning my post into a personal insult indicates that you are no more mature than I am. Congrats, I guess. We’re talking about kids, not me. I guess you’d like the chance to apply your leg-hair inspections to determine the maturity level of the students?
What purpose does the discomfort serve?
do the math.
England's and the USA's sins their conservatives want to whitewash history of, aren't the sins of liberals, but rather the sins of conservatives.
throughout history, and continuing as we speak, conservatives fight 24/7 yr after yr, decade after decade, century after century, to rule over all others, on everything, all the time..
it's OCD literally who they are. they can't stop themselves, nor ever want or try to.
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I don't want to speak for CoH, but there is a discernable differnce between "teaching history as history, warts and all" and "teaching history for the purpose of making _____ uncomfortable."
I'll teach it all - I'm teaching the 3/5ths Rule and Dred Scott right now. And I'll also teach the 13th and 14th Amendments, because one without the rest is indoctrination, not teaching.
The modern high school junior learning American history should not feel any BLAME for 1600 Colonial slavery, or post 1776 American slavery.
And there is a real debate whether a white kid today - equally doomed to a public school education with his black friend - "enjoys" a "white privilege" giving him a leg up on any economic factor. Their wages, opportunities, advancement, will NOT be a factor of race to the same degree it was even in the 1970's. The BIGGEST factor - in my opinion - is the one who lives in a poverty-ridden, crime-filled neighborhood, and feels peer pressure to use and sell drugs, is far more likely to get arrested or killed as a result of that culture, and THAT will ruin a life - black or white.
You are missing an important point. You brought it up in your German/Holocaust comment. Teaching about our history of slavery is.not the problem. But I think teaching history of slavery today, in some districts, is unmistakably intended to make whites feel guilty or “uncomfortable “ about slavery. That is nonsense. And it isn’t just in school. Robin DiAngelo became very wealthy with that point. Respected universities argued the point in the Supreme Court. It’s also elsewhere.
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@Bulk VanderHuge coh’s TAYou are missing an important point. You brought it up in your German/Holocaust comment. Teaching about our history of slavery is.not the problem. But I think teaching history of slavery today, in some districts, is unmistakably intended to make whites feel guilty or “uncomfortable “ about slavery. That is nonsense. And it isn’t just in school. Robin DiAngelo became very wealthy with that point. Respected universities argued the point in the Supreme Court. It’s also elsewhere.
You are missing an important point. You brought it up in your German/Holocaust comment. Teaching about our history of slavery is.not the problem. But I think teaching history of slavery today, in some districts, is unmistakably intended to make whites feel guilty or “uncomfortable “ about slavery. That is nonsense. And it isn’t just in school. Robin DiAngelo became very wealthy with that point. Respected universities argued the point in the Supreme Court. It’s also elsewhere.
Why should any German taking K-12 education feel and more ashamed or embarrassed about the Holocaust than any American learning about Jim Crow? You think the purpose is to embarrass. I don't accept that as the point. That doesn't mean somewhere there aren't those who think that way. I won't dispute that just as you know there are White supremacists who have their own views on this subject. Both sides have their crazy extremes. I don't want to embarrass anyone, but I want it taught. Heck, I don't want to embarrass German or Japanese kids, but I want their issues taught too.
there absolutely are racists today, though they are the minority.
and race is "noticed", even by non racists.
it's probably the first thing people of any other race notice about us.
and many blacks are brought up with a built in "crutch".
as are others.
we all ask this to ourselves all the time, whenever something goes wrong.
to a certain point, applicable or not, blacks grow up thinking there is an answer to that, at least some of the time..
not always, but that thought possibility is always there.
no doubt many heavily overweight or less attractive, or both, black women, would choose to be slim and pretty and black, over being white, but still being heavily overweight by nature.
black is a physical trait, but only one of many physical traits that influence how society treats all of us, both personally and professionally.
no doubt any minority, or anyone with any of numerous physical disadvantages in life the majority of humans deal with to differing degrees, has a possible answer to that question at their disposal when needed.
and sometimes that disadvantage is a contributing factor. sometimes not. but we never know for sure, or will ever know..
it's only human nature to go though all the possibilities when we are asking, "why me".
the reality that "sht happens" to everybody is known, but we never know for sure when the "sht" has had a helping nudge from the universe..
and a song,
and race is "noticed", even by non racists.
it's probably the first thing people of any other race notice about us.
and many blacks are brought up with a built in "crutch".
as are others.
we all ask this to ourselves all the time, whenever something goes wrong.
to a certain point, applicable or not, blacks grow up thinking there is an answer to that, at least some of the time..
not always, but that thought possibility is always there.
no doubt many heavily overweight or less attractive, or both, black women, would choose to be slim and pretty and black, over being white, but still being heavily overweight by nature.
black is a physical trait, but only one of many physical traits that influence how society treats all of us, both personally and professionally.
no doubt any minority, or anyone with any of numerous physical disadvantages in life the majority of humans deal with to differing degrees, has a possible answer to that question at their disposal when needed.
and sometimes that disadvantage is a contributing factor. sometimes not. but we never know for sure, or will ever know..
it's only human nature to go though all the possibilities when we are asking, "why me".
the reality that "sht happens" to everybody is known, but we never know for sure when the "sht" has had a helping nudge from the universe..
and a song,
It doesn't mean ignoring history. It's not degrading history. It's learning it.
Does that mean you learned more, if it was uncomfortable? Is there a benefit to making it uncomfortable?
I don’t think you need to feel personally guilty . But uncomfortable, probably. Just like watching a movie, like Django for example, or reading a good book about history of slavery or indigenous people, or WW2, would naturally make many people feel uncomfortable
I disagree with what seems to be your main conclusion, that it is being taught to make white people feel guilty and black people feel like victims. It’s being taught because it’s history.
Then why the freak out over the Florida standard about slaves learning a useful trade? That is objectively true, but it shouldn’t be mentioned?
Why do you keep claiming people are “ignoring” history here?
If anyone is ignoring history, it’s the 1619 and BLM folks who ignore abolitionism since 1609, The Civil War, the post-Civil War amendments, and virtually all Anglo participation the Civil Rights movements of the 60’s and 70’s … to claim all whites are racist. JFK was super white and super privileged, but he was no racist, and these fools are doing real damage.
It's called growth. You learn and work through it. Kind of like learning life isn't always fair.
Example.
A man has sex with a lot of women. Society compliments him, sees him as a stud and a lady's man.
When a woman does that we call her Jet's mom.
(OK...I stole that, but I thought it was fitting for the moment.)
When people are trying to get teachers to stop editorializing history, they're ignoring certain aspects of it. Saying things like slavery, Nazism and Holocaust should have the facts taught but not judged is a huge deal.
Those things should be judged.
You have to show the atrocities of those things. The damage it did to people dead and alive. It's not comfortable to think people can treat others like that, but in the case of slavery people, leaders of this country did. I don't see anything wrong with knowing and talking about how flawed and contradictory some of our forefathers were.
If don't blow a hole through the malicious concept of Manifest Destiny...
If you don't talk about the obstacles women faced in getting the vote...
If you don't go through the complexity of Asian internment camps during WW2...
If you don't show Selma...
People are trying to stop that. You don't just need to learn about these. You need to learn they're bad so we don't do it again.
Meanwhile, Vivek has been open about 9/11 being somewhat of an inside job. LOL Yeah...let's for HIM!!
Because it sounds ridiculous….hey folks, slavery wasn’t all bad. Yes. Yes it was.
How many of those slaves actually benefit from their skills?
Did they get jobs at a fair rate of pay as their white counterparts?
Were they able to find homes in the same neighborhoods?
You act like they left the fields on equal footing.
Your mom’s the one that had to fill the void of daddy being gone. Mine’s still around happily married to my mom. 😉
But it is true and it’s history. If you think that makes slavery not seem so bad, that’s 100% on you. You just make it up so you can bitch about it.
Beats me. What difference does that make?
probably not.
Now you are just making stuff up to bitch about it. You are not as good at this as Zeke.
It would. Kind of like there are uncomfortable things that could be covered in a history class that don't go along with the narrative you like. Africans were the beginning of the slave trade, there were black and Native American slave holders, and invariably there were slaves that used the skills they learned while being slaves to make a living when they were freed. All of that is invariably true but people were up in arms about that being taught in Florida. Why?
There are historical facts and then there is the narrative. I believe CoH is expressing an issue with the narrative behind all the "facts" that some people would like to push. If the intent is to just lay out the facts and your feelings be damned, then we shouldn't have an issue with the Florida standards, but you do because those facts make you uncomfortable that a narrative is being pushed.
The 1619 project is hot garbage. You can Google the historians on your own that will lay that out. Anyone indicating that brand of "History" has any place in standard curriculum for a K-12 school is an unserious person.
Missing in this thread is the fact K-12 education is primarily a state by state situation, and there is a variety of versions being taught. Also education is a lifetime process so we can learn other versions of history as we age.
Finally, allowing our politics to dictate which version of history we accept is all too prevalent and dangerous given how divided we are politically. This is what makes me uncomfortable.
Please don't interpret this as meaning only one national version should be taught. In the final analysis, however, we may believe what we want to believe so we will never all be on the same page. A common culture can only go so far in a country which prides itself on being free to choose.
Finally, allowing our politics to dictate which version of history we accept is all too prevalent and dangerous given how divided we are politically. This is what makes me uncomfortable.
Please don't interpret this as meaning only one national version should be taught. In the final analysis, however, we may believe what we want to believe so we will never all be on the same page. A common culture can only go so far in a country which prides itself on being free to choose.
You’re calling another poster’s mom a whore while banning Danc for doing nothing like that.
You should ban yourself from the Cooler.
LOL
The argument is they benefitted. Amid the murder, beatings, likely emotional abuse, sexual abuse and loss of freedom they benefitted.
