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DJ Carton interest in IU really growing...

Deron Davis?
That is the only Davis we have.

If Davis is cleared to full contact this summer, he will have time to get in shape. If he is still rehabbing and limited as practice begins, he will be way behind. I would rather see him red shirt in that case.

His injury takes time to come back from. He needs to be healthy and his muscles back in shape before he tries to play.
 
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This is a common misconception, no they don't. Tom Crean did all the time which is part of the reason he was let go. Good programs don't have the amount of misses IU has had or they wouldn't be considered good programs. Stan Rob, Priller, Jobe, April, Gelon, Minuru, Jones, Hollowell, Perea, Jurkin, Newkirk, Mcswain, and even dating back to guys like Bobby C and Eron Gordon. You can even add in guys because of bad behavior like Holt and Davis. Every program has misses, I agree, but if any program misses on that many guys over just a few years then things are clearly not going right.

Well, we're talking 2 different things. I'm talking about the # of offers versus the # of commitments a coach actually gets. In that, I think even UK, offers way more guys than they get, as do programs like Duke, UNC, etc... I'd think UK has the highest "close" percentage and I still think it's way under 50%. You're talking about misses within the guys you get commitments from, and on that I agree, TC had way too many.
 
Agree 100%. Shocking how far off Iowa fans are about Crean's recruiting prowess. Other than Zeller, Bryant, Yogi and Vonleh I can't think of anyone else considered a big time recruit coveted by high major programs. It is more accurate to say he had a fair amount of skill/luck finding and developing diamonds in the rough, i.e., VO, OG, and JM. Even at that he swung and missed much more than he hit.

Troy Williams, James Blackmon Jr. Jeremy Hollowell was top-75, I think. Even Robert Johnson was being recruited by UNC. I guess it depends on what you consider "a big time recruit coveted by high major programs." Creek and Watford were high 4 stars as well.

Bottom line, which I think we all agree on, was that Crean didn't do enough with the talent he had. His high points weren't high enough to justify the low points, which were too low. His recruiting was better than average for a Big Ten school, but not better than MSU, who has been the best...Paterfamilias developed a fairly comprehensive metric for it.
 
Troy Williams, James Blackmon Jr. Jeremy Hollowell was top-75, I think. Even Robert Johnson was being recruited by UNC. I guess it depends on what you consider "a big time recruit coveted by high major programs." Creek and Watford were high 4 stars as well.

Bottom line, which I think we all agree on, was that Crean didn't do enough with the talent he had. His high points weren't high enough to justify the low points, which were too low. His recruiting was better than average for a Big Ten school, but not better than MSU, who has been the best...Paterfamilias developed a fairly comprehensive metric for it.

When you factor in his inability to build, manage, and maintain a roster based on position and need, Tom Crean as a recruiter was decidedly below average. In fact, he was downright terrible. That's why he's now at Georgia and no longer at Indiana.
 
That is the only Davis we have.

If Davis is cleared to full contact this summer, he will have time to get in shape. If he is still rehabbing and limited as practice begins, he will be way behind. I would rather see him red shirt in that case.

His injury takes time to come back from. He needs to be healthy and his muscles back in shape before he tries to play.

Deron Davis will be 22 next spring. He is not going to red-shirt.

He needs to start making a living playing ball after next season because he will likely never get a multi-year, million-dollar contract.
 
When you factor in his inability to build, manage, and maintain a roster based on position and need, Tom Crean as a recruiter was decidedly below average. In fact, he was downright terrible. That's why he's now at Georgia and no longer at Indiana.

Yep. Anyone who gets the chance to coach at IU will put together some good classes, because it’s IU! Indiana basketball has that much appeal to people. Archie’s first class will be better than any Crean put together in his 9 years.
 
That has to be one of the most frustrating things as a fan - being undersized more often than not for the better part of 2 decades. You have to go back to Jeffries, Newton and Leach for the last time IU had 3 legit bigs on the same team. Zeller and Watford were the exception and not the rule.

Blame it on Zeller, Vonleh and Bryant going pro early, Fischer transferring almost immediately, or failed recruiting. Add it to the failure to land one legit PG in four years to replace Yogi and now you understand why Crean was fired.
Persistent playing people out of position. Love of wings to the detriment of other positions. I sometimes wonder what elston would have been like if he hadn’t spent 3 years guarding the 5.
 
This is a common misconception, no they don't. Tom Crean did all the time which is part of the reason he was let go. Good programs don't have the amount of misses IU has had or they wouldn't be considered good programs. Stan Rob, Priller, Jobe, April, Gelon, Minuru, Jones, Hollowell, Perea, Jurkin, Newkirk, Mcswain, and even dating back to guys like Bobby C and Eron Gordon. You can even add in guys because of bad behavior like Holt and Davis. Every program has misses, I agree, but if any program misses on that many guys over just a few years then things are clearly not going right.
The problem is the miss is a really, really bad miss. Just like our finishes in the B1G the years when we didn’t win. Good recruiting is not merely scoring 5 stars but also a good solid roster around them.
 
Maybe someone transfers, like Moore.
fACTORS: Moore could [maybe?] leave if playing time isn't there. DeRon Davis could blossom and turn pro. That could be 4-5 schollies. 3 bigs and 1-2 guards. 2020 looks more guard oriented as far as recruiting goes. I say IU takes 4.
 
He will never red shirt. Ever.

https://ryortho.com/breaking/athletes-performance-takes-big-hit-after-achilles-tendon-rupture/
Then he may play with diminished capability. This article discusses athletes one year after surgery.

"For those athletes who did return to play, they played fewer games (p < .001) and had decreased play time overall during games (p = .025). Their performance statistics at the one year mark after surgery were still poor (p < .001), but improved by two years postoperatively."

While you and I would return to normal activities in 6 months or so. Athletes report it takes up to a year and longer to feel the injured leg is as effective as it was before. There are many that never return to their original form.

If playing in the NBA is a dream of his, he would be wise to not come back and use his eligibility in a diminished state. He can't use his injury as an excuse for less quickness and leaping ability as it would harm any chance of being drafted. He can't afford to show scouts he has given up quickness or explosiveness.

If he isn't 100%, he is better off taking a tear off and coming back strong and leave with one year of eligibility. Either way, he isn't going to the NBA after this season. Red shirting or not won't change the age he enters the NBA.
 
Given that DD is already a fairly immobile big who plays below the rim with very little leg strength, I doubt this injury will hinder his inherent abilities as much as other athletes.



https://ryortho.com/breaking/athletes-performance-takes-big-hit-after-achilles-tendon-rupture/
Then he may play with diminished capability. This article discusses athletes one year after surgery.

"For those athletes who did return to play, they played fewer games (p < .001) and had decreased play time overall during games (p = .025). Their performance statistics at the one year mark after surgery were still poor (p < .001), but improved by two years postoperatively."

While you and I would return to normal activities in 6 months or so. Athletes report it takes up to a year and longer to feel the injured leg is as effective as it was before. There are many that never return to their original form.

If playing in the NBA is a dream of his, he would be wise to not come back and use his eligibility in a diminished state. He can't use his injury as an excuse for less quickness and leaping ability as it would harm any chance of being drafted. He can't afford to show scouts he has given up quickness or explosiveness.

If he isn't 100%, he is better off taking a tear off and coming back strong and leave with one year of eligibility. Either way, he isn't going to the NBA after this season. Red shirting or not won't change the age he enters the NBA.
 
Given that DD is already a fairly immobile big who plays below the rim with very little leg strength, I doubt this injury will hinder his inherent abilities as much as other athletes.
dumb
 
"Overall, if I had to grade it, my season was probably a ‘D’ season. Coming off of last year, which was like a ‘F’ season. Not too much improvement besides my conditioning so I’m going to continue to work, get healthy and continue to build my body so next year I can come back stronger and faster.” – Davis on February 2.

Davis disagrees with every post you have written about him over the last two weeks. But hey, you've got his stats against our pre-conference competition to support your case. Dumb, indeed.


 
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https://ryortho.com/breaking/athletes-performance-takes-big-hit-after-achilles-tendon-rupture/
Then he may play with diminished capability. This article discusses athletes one year after surgery.

"For those athletes who did return to play, they played fewer games (p < .001) and had decreased play time overall during games (p = .025). Their performance statistics at the one year mark after surgery were still poor (p < .001), but improved by two years postoperatively."

While you and I would return to normal activities in 6 months or so. Athletes report it takes up to a year and longer to feel the injured leg is as effective as it was before. There are many that never return to their original form.

If playing in the NBA is a dream of his, he would be wise to not come back and use his eligibility in a diminished state. He can't use his injury as an excuse for less quickness and leaping ability as it would harm any chance of being drafted. He can't afford to show scouts he has given up quickness or explosiveness.

If he isn't 100%, he is better off taking a tear off and coming back strong and leave with one year of eligibility. Either way, he isn't going to the NBA after this season. Red shirting or not won't change the age he enters the NBA.

All red shirting does is save him eligibility for the 2020-2021 season. No one wants Davis still playing for us that season, including himself. Which is why he wont red shirt. It would be pointless.

Do you know a lot of 24 year olds who get drafted?
 
All red shirting does is save him eligibility for the 2020-2021 season. No one wants Davis still playing for us that season, including himself. Which is why he wont red shirt. It would be pointless.

Do you know a lot of 24 year olds who get drafted?
My last attempt. I hope he is 100% to start the year. It is likely to take a year to get back to where he was before the injury.

If he isn't ready and plays at less than 100% this year, nobody will want him. He would have one last year ('19-'20) to make people forget the season he wasn't 100%.

OR,

He uses this year to fully recover and returns in '19-'20 and the NBA might be interested.
 
My last attempt. I hope he is 100% to start the year. It is likely to take a year to get back to where he was before the injury.

If he isn't ready and plays at less than 100% this year, nobody will want him. He would have one last year ('19-'20) to make people forget the season he wasn't 100%.

OR,

He uses this year to fully recover and returns in '19-'20 and the NBA might be interested.

Or if he's not ready by the start of the season he could sit until he is, and not have to play through an injury at all this season. Which is what he would do in that scenario. Are you under impression that the only way for a player to sit is if he has a red-shirt?

I was nit-picking granted, but the idea that he would ever red-shirt is silly.
 
Or if he's not ready by the start of the season he could sit until he is, and not have to play through an injury at all this season. Which is what he would do in that scenario. Are you under impression that the only way for a player to sit is if he has a red-shirt?

I was nit-picking granted, but the idea that he would ever red-shirt is silly.
Redshirt is an option Davis and Archie will have if his injury keeps him out half the season or more. Risk of injury and his role would factor into the decision. Either way, he comes back for his fourth year at IU. Forget his age for a minute. Redshirting would give him an extra year to build his resume if he needed it.

There have been many rookies over 24 in the NBA. Some in their early 30's. How old was VJIII when he played in the G-League a few years back?
 
Redshirt is an option Davis and Archie will have if his injury keeps him out half the season or more. Risk of injury and his role would factor into the decision. Either way, he comes back for his fourth year at IU. Forget his age for a minute. Redshirting would give him an extra year to build his resume if he needed it.

There have been many rookies over 24 in the NBA. Some in their early 30's. How old was VJIII when he played in the G-League a few years back?

What is the difference if he just sits next year without the red shirt? Either way he's gone after 2019-2020 at the latest. How does a red shirt "build your resume". It's pointless, that's why he wouldn't do it.

Name me 3 NBA players who had long careers as 24+ year old rookies. My main point is, that Davis is likely not a career NBA player anyway. He has a shelf-life for which he can be paid well to play professionally, and he needs to start doing that sooner rather than later because he'll likely never get a single contract that will set him up for life.
 
What is the difference if he just sits next year without the red shirt? Either way he's gone after 2019-2020 at the latest. How does a red shirt "build your resume". It's pointless, that's why he wouldn't do it.

Name me 3 NBA players who had long careers as 24+ year old rookies. My main point is, that Davis is likely not a career NBA player anyway. He has a shelf-life for which he can be paid well to play professionally, and he needs to start doing that sooner rather than later because he'll likely never get a single contract that will set him up for life.
The red shirt preserves his eligibility for another year if he wants to use it. If he sits half a year and Archie and Davis feel he can come back and play well and help the team, then he will return. Davis and Archie could decide it is better for him to preserve a full year in case he has another injury or hasn't reached a level to go to the NBA

Every year there are 24+ year old rookies. This year there are 5 25+ year old rookies including Bogdanovic of the Pacers. I would say he will have a long career. Arvydas Sabonis was over 30 as a rookie. Mark Eaton and John Starks were well past 25 when they came into the NBA. Others have sat the bench and didn't contribute until their mid 20's and later.

Age won't be the reason Davis doesn't have a long NBA career. Talent to get there and stay on a roster will be the deciding factor. He wasn't ready at 22.
 
The red shirt preserves his eligibility for another year if he wants to use it. If he sits half a year and Archie and Davis feel he can come back and play well and help the team, then he will return. Davis and Archie could decide it is better for him to preserve a full year in case he has another injury or hasn't reached a level to go to the NBA

Every year there are 24+ year old rookies. This year there are 5 25+ year old rookies including Bogdanovic of the Pacers. I would say he will have a long career. Arvydas Sabonis was over 30 as a rookie. Mark Eaton and John Starks were well past 25 when they came into the NBA. Others have sat the bench and didn't contribute until their mid 20's and later.

Age won't be the reason Davis doesn't have a long NBA career. Talent to get there and stay on a roster will be the deciding factor. He wasn't ready at 22.
Bogdanovic is not a rookie because he played 2 or 3 years in Brooklyn and a half of a year in Washington before joining the Pacers.
 
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The red shirt preserves his eligibility for another year if he wants to use it. If he sits half a year and Archie and Davis feel he can come back and play well and help the team, then he will return. Davis and Archie could decide it is better for him to preserve a full year in case he has another injury or hasn't reached a level to go to the NBA

Every year there are 24+ year old rookies. This year there are 5 25+ year old rookies including Bogdanovic of the Pacers. I would say he will have a long career. Arvydas Sabonis was over 30 as a rookie. Mark Eaton and John Starks were well past 25 when they came into the NBA. Others have sat the bench and didn't contribute until their mid 20's and later.

Age won't be the reason Davis doesn't have a long NBA career. Talent to get there and stay on a roster will be the deciding factor. He wasn't ready at 22.

Yeah I know how a red shirt works. It was just silly to suggest it in the case of Deron.

There is no scenario in which he's still playing for us in 2020-2021, injuries de damned. He's going to be well recruited over in the '19 and '20 classes.
 
"Overall, if I had to grade it, my season was probably a ‘D’ season. Coming off of last year, which was like a ‘F’ season. Not too much improvement besides my conditioning so I’m going to continue to work, get healthy and continue to build my body so next year I can come back stronger and faster.” – Davis on February 2.

Davis disagrees with every post you have written about him over the last two weeks. But hey, you've got his stats against our pre-conference competition to support your case. Dumb, indeed.
Dumb
 
The red shirt preserves his eligibility for another year if he wants to use it. If he sits half a year and Archie and Davis feel he can come back and play well and help the team, then he will return. Davis and Archie could decide it is better for him to preserve a full year in case he has another injury or hasn't reached a level to go to the NBA

Every year there are 24+ year old rookies. This year there are 5 25+ year old rookies including Bogdanovic of the Pacers. I would say he will have a long career. Arvydas Sabonis was over 30 as a rookie. Mark Eaton and John Starks were well past 25 when they came into the NBA. Others have sat the bench and didn't contribute until their mid 20's and later.

Age won't be the reason Davis doesn't have a long NBA career. Talent to get there and stay on a roster will be the deciding factor. He wasn't ready at 22.
Your point is perfectly reasonable if the goal is to protect his appearance to NBA owners that don’t know how to evaluate a player. The most likely reason guys do not perform very well after an Achilles rupture is that their medical staff advises limited minutes. It’s hard to have a monster season when you are playing twenty minutes a game. The medical staff also advises that it is better for him to continue playing than to not. It would slow his recovery, and hurt his game to keep him out. His path to the NBA is to play very efficiently with limited minutes this year, and break out as a senior. If he doesn’t then he will have to slog it out in the G league or overseas. Archie isn’t going to wait around for him. He has a chance, and it’s up to him to get it done.
 
Your point is perfectly reasonable if the goal is to protect his appearance to NBA owners that don’t know how to evaluate a player. The most likely reason guys do not perform very well after an Achilles rupture is that their medical staff advises limited minutes. It’s hard to have a monster season when you are playing twenty minutes a game. The medical staff also advises that it is better for him to continue playing than to not. It would slow his recovery, and hurt his game to keep him out. His path to the NBA is to play very efficiently with limited minutes this year, and break out as a senior.

I think it's ultimately a moot point because I just don't see Davis sticking long term in the NBA, if he even tries to go that route.

It's not even that I don't like his game, because i think he could be a really good player for us next year if he's 100% and would have a chance in the 1990's or early 2000's.

But there just isn't much call for an immobile big, who can't block shots, can't shoot, can't run the floor well and cant defend away from the basket. he's gone the way of the Eddy Curry type player, which is to say extinct, but Eddy could at least rebound.
 
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Your point is perfectly reasonable if the goal is to protect his appearance to NBA owners that don’t know how to evaluate a player. The most likely reason guys do not perform very well after an Achilles rupture is that their medical staff advises limited minutes. It’s hard to have a monster season when you are playing twenty minutes a game. The medical staff also advises that it is better for him to continue playing than to not. It would slow his recovery, and hurt his game to keep him out. His path to the NBA is to play very efficiently with limited minutes this year, and break out as a senior. If he doesn’t then he will have to slog it out in the G league or overseas. Archie isn’t going to wait around for him. He has a chance, and it’s up to him to get it done.
I had always heard it was a year long injury for an athlete. Not that it isn't healed after 6 months, but that it takes a long time to get back the range of motion and flexibility to move like they want. People report that their injured leg doesn't feel like the other when they run.

He may not be as explosive or quick if he returns next year. Quickness wasn't a strength of his anyway. Some may question his conditioning or that he isn't playing hard. He might not be lazy, he might be overcoming his injury. A study I read said athletes perform better 2 years after their operation.

The medical staff will tell him what he needs to know. He won't tell this board. I'll call the first and every other person a dumbass if they question his play or work ethic. If he comes back next year in any form, it will be because he worked his ass off,
 
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I had always heard it was a year long injury for an athlete. Not that it isn't healed after 6 months, but that it takes a long time to get back the range of motion and flexibility to move like they want. People report that their injured leg doesn't feel like the other when they run.

He may not be as explosive or quick if he returns next year. Quickness wasn't a strength of his anyway. Some may question his conditioning or that he isn't playing hard. He might not be lazy, he might be overcoming his injury. A study I read said athletes perform better 2 years after their operation.

The medical staff will tell him what he needs to know. He won't tell this board. I'll call the first and every other person a dumbass if they question his play or work ethic. If he comes back next year in any form, it will be because he worked his ass off,
I’m with you that he is working probably doing everything he can to get back. To your point about players getting back to form two years after injury, I’m suggesting it’s because of their “rehab year” that they are able to get back to 100%. That’s why I don’t think he should do a red shirt.
 
I think it's ultimately a moot point because I just don't see Davis sticking long term in the NBA, if he even tries to go that route.

It's not even that I don't like his game, because i think he could be a really good player for us next year if he's 100% and would have a chance in the 1990's or early 2000's.

But there just isn't much call for an immobile big, who can't block shots, can't shoot, can't run the floor well and cant defend away from the basket. he's gone the way of the Eddy Curry type player, which is to say extinct, but Eddy could at least rebound.
I don’t agree. I think he could play in the NBA at some point because his ball skills are very good. He can play, but time will tell if he can get his body into elite athletic shape. I’m not counting him out. He might be an important piece for us to make a deep tourney run during his senior season too, so I’m pulling for him.
 
I’m with you that he is working probably doing everything he can to get back. To your point about players getting back to form two years after injury, I’m suggesting it’s because of their “rehab year” that they are able to get back to 100%. That’s why I don’t think he should do a red shirt.
I want him to do what is best for his future. He could play at less than 100% as long as he isn't risking injury. He can decide how well he can compete and either play or wait to come back stronger for a full year and have a second year if he needed it. Either way he could leave after 4 years.

I have always believed he injured his leg in the Tennessee Tech game. He pulled up lame early in the game and missed the rest of the half. He kept stretching his leg during timeouts and breaks in the game. It didn't look like an ankle injury or a knee.I don't remember him playing as well the rest of his season. He may be in a hurry to give the NBA a shot or play overseas.
 
I don’t agree. I think he could play in the NBA at some point because his ball skills are very good. He can play, but time will tell if he can get his body into elite athletic shape. I’m not counting him out. He might be an important piece for us to make a deep tourney run during his senior season too, so I’m pulling for him.
He has good hands and had better post moves than Bryant in his freshman year and finished well at the rim. If Bryant can make it, then he could as well. As I have mentioned, I think he was already having an issue with his leg before the event that ended his season. I can't say if that contributed to his lack of quickness. At times he didn't look athletic enough for the NBA, but I never thought that his freshman year. He needs to be healthy to show his capabilities. He won't do that if he isn't fully recovered.
 
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