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COHoosier: Sissi...

T

toastedbread

Hall of Famer
Oct 25, 2006
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What indications have you seen that show Sissi as a reformer?

My understanding is that he has
1. Murdered political opponents (Brotherhood-Who may or may not be peaceful)
2. Imprisoned secular political opponents.
3. Imposed martial law and fear to all.
4. He's had some lovely speeches full of rhetoric.

What is this great moderate reform he is making? What has been Egypt's contribution to the ISIS fight?
Sissi is a worse Putin.

The real wildcard here is the Saudis who have remained silent. Their Wahhabism is what has led to this resurgent extremism. They are solely responsible. Them and the Qataris.

About the Crusades... It's a false equivocation. The behavior of the crusades was normal for that time period. This isn't an issue of Islam moving beyond ISIS. This is an issue of a significant portion of Muslims believing that violent extremism is justified due to Saudi brainwashing. ISIS isn't doing anything different then what the Saudis have pushed for decades.
 
Toasty, Question for you

Doesn't Sisi's obsession with punishing the Muslim Brotherhood show a real insight into the threat of Islamic terrorism of which Obama seems to ignorant?

I ask this question on behalf of my fellow Coolerite CoH to whom the question was directed only to discover your position in this web of complicated conflicts in finding just who are America's allies in the fight against terrorism.
 
I get my news the same as everyone else...

But I blame 3 parties for the rise of ISIS. Saudi, Qatar, Turkey. Saudi decided to start a proxy war with Iran + Hezballoh via Assad. This rebellion was funded by Saudi. Qatar stepped in with funding also. Qatar is like the dirty guy playing every side. Turkey has become increasingly radicalized and has allowed fighters to transit with ease. ISIS is essentially a non-Syrian movement. It is being led by Saudis and other outside radicals. Syrians are not radical.

Assad also become another proxy: US v. Russia.

Keep in mind the oil tactics by Saudi are primarily directed at US Shale, but also Iran imo. The Saudis have a serious regional battle with Iran.

There are radical elements in the brotherhood, but what is more radical than the Saudis? Frankly, I question how ISIS is much worse than Saudi?

Having spoken to some Egyptians living in Cairo the major reason for the downfall of the MB was not religious based, but simply the economy. They completely mismanaged the economy. However, keep in mind that the military owns/controls virtually the entire Egyptian economy. It's the same situation in Iran. Actually I think the Iranian negotiator Zarif is quite a decent guy. But, there are numerous groups (military, religious entities) and individuals who are profiting and thriving due to sanctions! They love the sanctions. It's stiff opposition.

As for Sissi. He is simply a dictator. What has he contributed toward fighting ISIS? He is solely interested in consolidating his power. Nothing more, nothing less. One thing I do like is how he has increased pressure on Hamas. Though, it's obvious this is mainly due to his current beef with Erdogan and also the Sinai terrorism/smuggling issue.

Who are our allies? It's a good question. At this point I think we probably need to cooperate directly with Assad. We must confront the Saudis about their behavior. The Turks have also not been helpful. Jordanians and UAE great, but I don't think it's making much difference. Do they want to fly in Sunnis to fight Sunnis?

Here is a link about the Qataris. From 2 days ago. They do this in Handball, in Soccer, in Olympic Weightlifting, in everything. Personally I can't stand their regime.

Qataris
 
Read this piece...

I think it speaks to a lot of the issues today. Many Arab Muslims imo are simply not living with what we consider to be modern values.

Islam and Science
 
If a repressive dictator is a reformer

Reformers have led Middle Eastern nations for many years. Perhaps this is not the sort of reform that's needed.
 
We need to start with the notion that

all politics and governance in the Middle East is measured by degrees of dysfunction.

I won't nit pick your 4 points, but I think it is worth observing that executing or imprisoning political opponents has been SOP in the area for ever.

The most important Sissi reform is the separation of church and state. Egypt's history about this has gone back and forth for decades, but overall, Egypt tends to be more secular than most. Tossing the Brotherhood has been a good thing, even given that the Brotherhood took power because of an election. The almost immediate public uprising against the Brotherhood suggests that deception was a part of the election process.

As you say talk is cheap. Sissi said what needs to be said about reforms and growing Muslim violence to the Muslim Clerics assembled at one of the most important Muslim institutes of learning in the Middle East. We have a role to play and that would be to pick up the theme, support that part of Sissi's message, and try to bring world opinion to a position of supporting that. This would be "smart power". But we won't do that.

I agree with your comments about the Saudis. I also agree with your observation about the Crusades and the false equivalency with ISIS. Using the Crusades and the Spanish (not Christian) Inquisition to add context to ISIS and Muslim atrocities is a lame Obama bromide among scores of Obama lame bromides.
 
Link: 10 Reasons for Arab/Muslims Lagging in Science

Granted some Muslims consider science to be anti-religion by leaning towards materialism, but this essay outlines 10 reasons outside of religion which has caused Arab/ Muslim states to lag behind in science.

1. Demographics. The number of research scientists and engineers remains
well below that of rich countries as well as Latin America and South and
East Asia. Science and engineering students are drawn primarily from
urban middle-income backgrounds; few of the much larger number of poor
students can pursue research.

2. Language. With an estimated 80 percent of the world's scientific
literature appearing first in English, the literature in Arabic,
Persian, Urdu, and other languages is inadequate for teaching students
as well as researchers.


3. Education. Effective science education at primary and secondary levels
is available in many countries only at a handful of urban private
schools. There is too much rote learning, a legacy in part of Qur'anic
schools, and far too little support for science education at all levels.

4. Research. The Muslim world suffers no shortage of scientists and
engineers, but it does have an acute scarcity of career researchers.
While several countries boast outstanding individual researchers and
projects, there is little mentorship or in-house ability to train young
researchers.

5. State-owned corporations. Given the increasing links between science and
technology, state-owned corporations have a potentially important role,
especially in Algeria and Syria, but they have woefully neglected
science.

6. Professional societies. Professional societies of physicists, engineers,
dentists, physicians, and other disciplines generally sponsor journals
and meetings but have no structures or resources for research.

7. Resources. A lack of financial resources and incentives has been a major barrier to research except in some oil-rich states.

8. Authoritarianism. Authoritarian regimes deny freedom of inquiry or
dissent, cripple professional societies, intimidate universities, and
limit contacts with the outside world.

9. Regional cooperation. Regional cooperation in science and technology has
a checkered history in the Muslim world. It makes eminent sense in
principle, for a handful of countries (like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia) are
oil-rich and short of researchers, while other countries (Egypt and
Pakistan) export them.

10. Government incompetence. Applied-research units in government
ministries, such as agriculture or construction, have often become
sinecures for political appointees with little or no interest or
capabilities for research.






This post was edited on 2/8 4:07 PM by hoot1
 
From a vast distance . . .

A guy who has no idea what he's talking about imagines that the latest corrupt repressive Middle Eastern dictator is a reformer because he occasionally mouths agreeable platitudes. As always, it's Groundhog Day in the GOP. Can't you guys at least learn to play the piano?
This post was edited on 2/8 2:41 PM by Rockfish1
 
Good post

I agree that Syria has turned into a proxy war. Our problem is that our would be proxies are largely out of the picture.

But the big question I have for you is what do you see as the end game for ISIS/ISL? I've had the general impression that radical Islamic militants enjoy more support in the Islamic Middle East, or maybe SW Asia too, than appears and that support is broader and deeper than those willing to join the fight. The reports of some Jordians at least rooting for ISIS is disturbing. Will Iran become the counterweigt to ISIS? In the last Shia-Sunni war we helped Saddam and the Sunni's. What do we do now--if anything.
 
Of course we can

play the piano. We just aren't playing something you like so you refuse to listen to it.
 
Really?

You think the problem is that I don't hear you praising corrupt authoritarian Middle Eastern dictators? Hint: I hear every bit of that. But since corrupt authoritarian Middle Eastern dictators are at the heart of Middle Eastern dysfunction, I don't understand why you guys are so happy with them. Perhaps instead of a cutesy non-response you could explain why Egypt's corrupt military dictator serves anyone's interests, particularly including ours. I'm all ears.
 
Geat movie.


Great scene. I saw Jerry Lee for $10 dollars at the Executive Inn in Owensboro. Best money I ever spent. After the show he went to the lounge and asked the house band if he could sit in. The night rolled on.
 
I wish I'd been there for that

You and I would now be fast friends. I did see Muddy Waters in Bloomington, but I didn't get to hang with him. Also, Rashaan Roland Kirk died on the day I was set to see him play.
 
They are lagging in Science eveywhere.


It is either Science or Religion. The west chose enlightenment although many are left behind.
 
I like where we took it

You've made me smile, and I appreciate it. Please do this all the time.
This post was edited on 2/8 8:29 PM by Rockfish1
 
You're a sentimentalist

There are far worse things that could be said of you.
 
Man....wish I could have been there.

That would have been nothing short of amazing!
 
You can't make that shit up.

They had to stop entry into the lounge and it went until 3.30. Times have changed .Everyone I knew drove home. We were free.
 
That last statement was the best part.


We were free. We could drive home and if we were stopped being polite and respectful they let us go. Everyone didn't have a felony on their record. Liberty is the only principle.
 
I didn't say I was happy with him

BUT if I have a choice of picking an apple from a bushel of them where all are rotten to a certain extent I'm gonna pick the one that I think is the least rotten. To me that is about what choice we have in that area of the world. Now I want to ask you a serious question..... Do you think those countries are capable of governing themselves without a strong armed person in charge? I used to think they were but am not sure any more.
 
Thanks for that

Not only did I enjoy the song but enjoyed the pictures!!!
 
RZ, in my link...

..several Muslim scholars take the position Islam and science shouldn't be in conflict.

As I said in my post, some Muslims believe science and commerce distract from religion. The question remains who will prevail in the future. The past is the past, the future is yet to be determined.
 
At one point

the Muslim world was the keeper of Western knowledge. Much of the knowledge developed by the Greeks, Romans, et al were held by the Muslim world and later transferred back to Europeans.

Karen Armstrong has written a number of books on the monotheistic religions. In one, The Battle for God: Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam (2000), she argues that Muslims were highly interested in scince, especially as it applied to the physical world. Allah had created the physical world and understanding it brought them closer to their God. As they better understood the working of nature they had deeper questions. Questions that called into question aspects of their beliefs. A large group of senior clerics rebelled against the scientific research to rach Allah and the scientific movement tailed off.

I have read a few of Ms. Armstrong's books and find them interesting, though repetitive on a number of thoughts. I don't know if she is correct in her argument, but it does fit with the timing of Islamic Golden Age of about 800 AD - 1200 AD.
 
Million Dollar Quartet

If you haven't seen this show, you need to put it on your music bucket list. This is a takeoff on a actual event at the Sun Records studio when Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, and Carl Perkins showed up for an impromptu jam session. I saw the touring Broadway company production. Outstanding. The guy who played Jerry Lee Lewis' role stole the show. Seems like he played the piano standing on his head. Played all the favorites.
 
Be careful, N

I love that version, but it can become a vicious earworm. Several hours after it starts it becomes much less felicitous. I took a huge personal risk posting that link, because this is among my personal earworm nemeses.
 
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