CJ

[Bucket Getter]

I'll admit it. I've all but totally given up on him. Terrible disappointment to this point in his career and wouldn't be upset if he hit the portal this Spring. But damn, that was sure a lot of fun watching him actually play the game as it came to him. Not perfect, but pretty easily the best game we've seen him play and absolutely needed to win this one. I'd love nothing more than to take back my pessimism is his future here by seeing him build on this performance and become a main cog in this team's success. He's got the intangibles and measurables we sorely need.

 

[Vern Pain]

I'll admit it. I've all but totally given up on him. Terrible disappointment to this point in his career and wouldn't be upset if he hit the portal this Spring. But damn, that was sure a lot of fun watching him actually play the game as it came to him. Not perfect, but pretty easily the best game we've seen him play and absolutely needed to win this one. I'd love nothing more that to take back my pessimism is his future here by seeing him build on this performance and become a main cog in this team's success. He's got the intangibles and measurables we sorely need.

I want to believe

 

[IUbball_lifer]

I think we sometimes overlook the fishbowl that a young player enters at a place like IU bball. It’s a huge stage and with social media, I can understand how a young man can be overwhelmed by it. It’s probably the first time ever that CJ couldn’t make shots. And his body language showed it. I was happy for him to get some confidence and just play with some joy. The kid can flat out guard and I think that will show out in coming games. Combine that with better shotmaking and he can be a major factor the rest of the season.

 

[bawlmer]

Don't forget about Banks. Didn't make a big splash last night, but he was pretty solid (only 1 foul in 13 minutes - progress). That's what we need to play behind MM, although CJ played that role last night.

 

[bawlmer]

I think we sometimes overlook the fishbowl that a young player enters at a place like IU bball. It’s a huge stage and with social media, I can understand how a young man can be overwhelmed by it. It’s probably the first time ever that CJ couldn’t make shots. And his body language showed it. I was happy for him to get some confidence and just play with some joy. The kid can flat out guard and I think that will show out in coming games. Combine that with better shotmaking and he can be a major factor the rest of the season.

More exciting than the shooting was his guarding! The shooting will come if he can just stay on the court with good defense.

 

[HoosierJimbo89]

Gunn hit a bunch of shots in high school. He has the height, athleticism, and potential to be a good shooting guard. Hopefully, he's starting to become a consistent contributer. IU needs a shooting guard in the worst way, and Woody can't take him out if he plays like he did last night.

 

[Middawg]

Playing D and playing the role as the 4th or 5th offensive option with the usual starters is a recipe for success for Gunn this season.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

I'll admit it. I've all but totally given up on him. Terrible disappointment to this point in his career and wouldn't be upset if he hit the portal this Spring. But damn, that was sure a lot of fun watching him actually play the game as it came to him. Not perfect, but pretty easily the best game we've seen him play and absolutely needed to win this one. I'd love nothing more than to take back my pessimism is his future here by seeing him build on this performance and become a main cog in this team's success. He's got the intangibles and measurables we sorely need.

Why trash him when he doesn’t play as well? Does it give you pleasure? Does it make you feel smart? These are serious questions.

 

[Bucket Getter]

Why trash him when he doesn’t play as well? Does it give you pleasure? Does it make you feel smart? These are serious questions.

Lighten up Frances. I don’t trash him when he sucks. I believe the purpose of the post is to point out that maybe he’s turned a corner. He needs to and the team desperately needs him to. Is that clear (and nice) enough for you? That’s my serious question.

 

[Aloha Hoosier]

Lighten up Frances. I don’t trash him when he sucks. I believe the purpose of the post is to point out that maybe he’s turned a corner. He needs to and the team desperately needs him to. Is that clear (and nice) enough for you? That’s my serious question.

I’m all good with actual critiques of players, but that isn’t generally what you NNW&CC members do. You generally go to “he sucks” and “he gone.” Am I wrong?

 

[FormerRevMatt]

Why trash him when he doesn’t play as well? Does it give you pleasure? Does it make you feel smart? These are serious questions.

Why do you trash other posters? Does it give you pleasure? Does it make you feel smart? These are serious questions...

BTW, I missed you around here the day after the Nebraska game, Aloha.

It's a f*cking message board. You sound like the self-appointed hall monitor around here, which is always the worst kind... LOL

 

[Bucket Getter]

I’m all good with actual critiques of players, but that isn’t generally what you NNW&CC members do. You generally go to “he sucks” and “he gone.” Am I wrong?

Yes, you are. And probably usually are in most things you post. I don’t believe I’m in that crowd. And I’d bet CJ would admit most of his play has sucked. My 65 years on this planet began with love for IU basketball watching on snowy black and white tvs years before RMK showed up on campus.

Woody and I graduated the same year. I’m pulling like hell for him. If I have (and God forbid I actually state them) reservations from time to time, I don’t think that makes me any different than any other fan. And last I looked, this site is for fan discussions.

 

[NOMORENIT]

Gunn is a shooter/scorer. He's had a rough freshman year and beginning of sophomore year but hopefully this past game will give him more minutes on the court and he won't have the fear of being taken out when he misses a shot. We need a shooter scorer in the guard rotation and right now we don't have one. XJ penetrates to score, Cupps doesn't feel comfortable enough to shoot at will, Galloway has an average outside shot at best. Give Gunn some minutes, Woody. What do you have to lose.

 

[kkott]

Gunn is a shooter/scorer

No, he's a ballplayer. I wish folks would quit trying to paint him as some great shooter. He's a non 5* sophomore finding his way. If he reads the D and how he's playing and just make the right plays, I think he's going to be fine. I think trying to be that shooter/scorer is a big reason why he's struggled to this point.

 

[dbmhoosier]

CJ coming on and staying on and XJ staying healthy is about the only chance we have to make something out of this season. Hopefully it happens.

 

[FormerRevMatt]

No, he's a ballplayer. I wish folks would quit trying to pain him as some great shooter. He's a non 5* sophomore finding his way. If he reads the D and how he's playing and just make the right plays, I think he's going to be fine. I think trying to be that shooter/scorer is a big reason why he's struggled to this point.

I don't know. I think the way Gunn actually plays, I think he's a scorer. He comes off the bench shooting, so I'm guessing that he's hitting some shots in practice and Woody has given him some kind of green light to shoot.

I do get your ballplayer point, and he can do more than just score, but I do think he's a scorer. He's athletic enough to score in a number of ways and he should be able to get his shot off against almost any B1G guards. It was really nice to see a few go down for him.

I agree with you, though, that he's not just a shooter. That sells him short. He has the potential to be so much more than just a shooter.

 

[kkott]

I don't know. I think the way Gunn actually plays, I think he's a scorer. He comes off the bench shooting, so I'm guessing that he's hitting some shots in practice and Woody has given him some kind of green light to shoot.

I do get your ballplayer point, and he can do more than just score, but I do think he's a scorer. He's athletic enough to score in a number of ways and he should be able to get his shot off against almost any B1G guards. It was really nice to see a few go down for him.

I agree with you, though, that he's not just a shooter. That sells him short. He has the potential to be so much more than just a shooter.

I think he could be our best perimeter defender. And, I think he got mind-f*cked last year into trying to be the 3 pt shooter he, like almost everyone, knows we need. I just want everyone to back down on the shooter talk, and just let him play. If he's feeling it, and he's getting good looks, let it fly. But he shouldn't feel any pressure to score on this team, where he's about the 6th option literally. If he can just prove to himself and his coaches that he's a good all around player, his day as a scorer will come, and I want that to be at IU.

 

[h20pls]

Playing D and playing the role as the 4th or 5th offensive option with the usual starters is a recipe for success for Gunn this season.

100%

 

[kkott]

I don't know. I think the way Gunn actually plays, I think he's a scorer.

Except he doesn't score often or much? I've had countless folks on here tell me he is a shooter/scorer, with little proof of that at the college level. In HS, guys like him get dared to shoot because defenders don't want him to drive, so he gets open looks. That doesn't happen at this level. Suddenly he's being crowded by better, longer, more athletic defenders, and I don't believe he was even a great shooter in HS. Give him time, let him find his game and maybe his shooting and scoring will come along. If he has it in his mind that he's got to score, I think he gets down on himself and starts pressing when shots don't fall.

 

[bailey777]

I'll admit it. I've all but totally given up on him. Terrible disappointment to this point in his career and wouldn't be upset if he hit the portal this Spring. But damn, that was sure a lot of fun watching him actually play the game as it came to him. Not perfect, but pretty easily the best game we've seen him play and absolutely needed to win this one. I'd love nothing more than to take back my pessimism is his future here by seeing him build on this performance and become a main cog in this team's success. He's got the intangibles and measurables we sorely need.

I am just not really to jump on his bandwagon after one good home game. If he can show it for four or five games in a rown then maybe we are onto something, but for the most part he has been awful this year.

 

[bailey777]

CJ coming on and staying on and XJ staying healthy is about the only chance we have to make something out of this season. Hopefully it happens.

X has to stay healthy cupps should not be playing 30 minutes a game. Maybe 5 to 10 max.

 

[Coach Geez]

I don't know. I think the way Gunn actually plays, I think he's a scorer. He comes off the bench shooting, so I'm guessing that he's hitting some shots in practice and Woody has given him some kind of green light to shoot.

I do get your ballplayer point, and he can do more than just score, but I do think he's a scorer. He's athletic enough to score in a number of ways and he should be able to get his shot off against almost any B1G guards. It was really nice to see a few go down for him.

I agree with you, though, that he's not just a shooter. That sells him short. He has the potential to be so much more than just a shooter.

He 100% has a scorer's mentality, second only to Renau on the team. He was also a very good shooter in high school. But he's a volume type player and it's tough when you get only get limited run. He hasn't shown any kind of consistency yet on the offensive end and that is what has been frustrating to the start of his career, but if there is one positive to take away, he hasn't wavered on the defensive end whenever he's in. He's not only instinctive on that end of the floor, but also very disruptive. Shows to me that he's coachable and a team player.

In both the games he's played well in offensively this year (OSU and UM), his first couple of shots went down and lead to early confidence. That's just where he's at as a player right now. I do think he deserves more run because I do think he's one of the better perimeter defenders on the team. If he does find any kind of consistency on offense, could be a key contributor down the stretch.

 

[Coach Geez]

I think he could be our best perimeter defender. And, I think he got mind-f*cked last year into trying to be the 3 pt shooter he, like almost everyone, knows we need. I just want everyone to back down on the shooter talk, and just let him play. If he's feeling it, and he's getting good looks, let it fly. But he shouldn't feel any pressure to score on this team, where he's about the 6th option literally. If he can just prove to himself and his coaches that he's a good all around player, his day as a scorer will come, and I want that to be at IU.

I call hogwash. He was never put in position to be a a 3 pt shooter last year. He played in 20 games and took 24 3 pt attempts, most of them in end game situations playing with and against walk-ons and the outcome already decided. He wasn't asked to prove anything last year. I don't think he's forced but maybe a few shots in the action he's seen so far this year. Most of the 3's he's taken have been in rhythm and within the flow of the offense.

 

[kmathum]

I’m all good with actual critiques of players, but that isn’t generally what you NNW&CC members do. You generally go to “he sucks” and “he gone.” Am I wrong?

What the heck does that alphabet soup mean?

 

[kkott]

I call hogwash. He was never put in position to be a a 3 pt shooter last year. He played in 20 games and took 24 3 pt attempts, most of them in end game situations playing with and against walk-ons and the outcome already decided. He wasn't asked to prove anything last year. I don't think he's forced but maybe a few shots in the action he's seen so far this year. Most of the 3's he's taken have been in rhythm and within the flow of the offense.

we've had this discussion. I went back and looked and he took more 3's per minutes played than anyone on the team if I recall. Your argument was that he didn't have enough attempts, but again, I ask you what "shooter" ever went through a 2-22 stretch? I've said all along that if he'd stop worrying about shooting and just play, I think his game would come around and I think it is. I just looked and last year he was putting up a 3 for every 6.25 minutes played (Kopp was 1 every 7.5 minutes played as a comparison) and this year it's 1 every 12+ minutes played. He may be a higher volume scorer/shooter in the future, but for now he's shooting much better while taking fewer (better?) shots and focusing more on D and just playing.

 

[Bucket Getter]

we've had this discussion. I went back and looked and he took more 3's per minutes played than anyone on the team if I recall. Your argument was that he didn't have enough attempts, but again, I ask you what "shooter" ever went through a 2-22 stretch? I've said all along that if he'd stop worrying about shooting and just play, I think his game would come around and I think it is. I just looked and last year he was putting up a 3 for every 6.25 minutes played (Kopp was 1 every 7.5 minutes played as a comparison) and this year it's 1 every 12+ minutes played. He may be a higher volume scorer/shooter in the future, but for now he's shooting much better while taking fewer (better?) shots and focusing more on D and just playing.

Good stats. Anyone know how many 3s Bates had per minute? I swear he took a couple before he ever got his warmups off and the scorer blew the horn. Talk about a scorer’s mentality.

 

[Coach Geez]

we've had this discussion. I went back and looked and he took more 3's per minutes played than anyone on the team if I recall. Your argument was that he didn't have enough attempts, but again, I ask you what "shooter" ever went through a 2-22 stretch? I've said all along that if he'd stop worrying about shooting and just play, I think his game would come around and I think it is. I just looked and last year he was putting up a 3 for every 6.25 minutes played (Kopp was 1 every 7.5 minutes played as a comparison) and this year it's 1 every 12+ minutes played. He may be a higher volume scorer/shooter in the future, but for now he's shooting much better while taking fewer (better?) shots and focusing more on D and just playing.

How many meaningful minutes did CJ Gunn play last year? He took multiple 3 point attempts in 4 of the 20 games he played in. He wasn’t out there hunting shots to prove that he was a 3 point shooter. The overwhelming majority of the 3’s he took were in end of game scenarios with the outcome already decided playing against the other teams walk-ons. It’s not indicative of anything when you actually apply context.

 

[kkott]

Good stats. Anyone know how many 3s Bates had per minute? I swear he took a couple before he ever got his warmups off and the scorer blew the horn. Talk about a scorer’s mentality.

He was about the same as Kopp. Like an attempt every 7.5 minuts played.

The Assembly Call guys said Kopp actually got a G League gig and was doing well. I looked and he'd just gotten picked up, but was averaging 12ppg and I think playing about 12mpg and was hitting almost 50% of his 3s. He'd only played a couple games though.

 

[kkott]

How many meaningful minutes did CJ Gunn play last year? He took multiple 3 point attempts in 4 of the 20 games he played in. He wasn’t out there hunting shots to prove that he was a 3 point shooter. The overwhelming majority of the 3’s he took were in end of game scenarios with the outcome already decided playing against the other teams walk-ons. It’s not indicative of anything when you actually apply context.

so 2-24 vs walkons and 2nd teamers makes sense to you? I'd think if anything he would've made shots at a higher clip vs worse defenders.

 

[IUNorth]

we've had this discussion. I went back and looked and he took more 3's per minutes played than anyone on the team if I recall. Your argument was that he didn't have enough attempts, but again, I ask you what "shooter" ever went through a 2-22 stretch? I've said all along that if he'd stop worrying about shooting and just play, I think his game would come around and I think it is. I just looked and last year he was putting up a 3 for every 6.25 minutes played (Kopp was 1 every 7.5 minutes played as a comparison) and this year it's 1 every 12+ minutes played. He may be a higher volume scorer/shooter in the future, but for now he's shooting much better while taking fewer (better?) shots and focusing more on D and just playing.

CJ only played in 20 games last year. So in over 1/3 of their games, he didn't play a second. I've been there, that unknown creates stress and tension every game, that regular rotation guys don't have. He literally didn't know game to game whether he was going to play or not. So when he did check in, he's amped up.

In 5 of those 20 games, he played 10 minutes or more.

In 15 of those 20 games, he played 10 minutes or less.

His PPM in the 5 games he played more than 10 minutes was 0.293.

His PPM in the 15 games he played less than 10 minutes was 0.213

In the 2 games where he played close to 20 minutes, his PPM was 0.411

A strong case could be made that CJ became more comfortable, and more effective scoring wise, the more playing time he got.

2-21 isn't very good, obviously. But its not like he was shooting them consecutively. Most nights it was 1, maybe 2 of them, jammed in to a low amount of playing time. He had a lot of 0-1, 2 minutes of playing time, type nights.

I think the anticipation probably got to him. And once he had a few games in a row of 1)not playing at all 2)not hitting the shot or two he got...it probably started to snowball and his attempts became more and more stressful.

I don't know why he hasn't earned many extended minutes of playing time on the court. But it seems when he gets them, he settles in and does fairly well. There's a reason why announcers and coaches a like tell kids not to come in and chuck up an outside shot the first couple times you touch it. Probably over half those 21 three point attempts fall in to that category.

 

[IUNorth]

so 2-24 vs walkons and 2nd teamers makes sense to you? I'd think if anything he would've made shots at a higher clip vs worse defenders.

That's not, at all, the only time he played in games. He got short 1-2 minute stints, in first halves of games, quite a lot of times.

 

[Coach Geez]

so 2-24 vs walkons and 2nd teamers makes sense to you? I'd think if anything he would've made shots at a higher clip vs worse defenders.

You have to understand in those situations there’s little to no offense being run. You have guys bleeding clock for 30-35 seconds and then a shot goes up to avoid a violation. It makes perfectly good sense.

 

[frikkenfrakken]

CJ only played in 20 games last year. So in over 1/3 of their games, he didn't play a second. I've been there, that unknown creates stress and tension every game, that regular rotation guys don't have. He literally didn't know game to game whether he was going to play or not. So when he did check in, he's amped up.

In 5 of those 20 games, he played 10 minutes or more.

In 15 of those 20 games, he played 10 minutes or less.

His PPM in the 5 games he played more than 10 minutes was 0.293.

His PPM in the 15 games he played less than 10 minutes was 0.213

In the 2 games where he played close to 20 minutes, his PPM was 0.411

A strong case could be made that CJ became more comfortable, and more effective scoring wise, the more playing time he got.

Classic correlation/causation fallacy. It might be that he played better when he got more run. It might also be that he got more run in the games he played well.

The second explanation makes more sense, given how desperate we have been for shooting last year and this year.

I wish it was the first explanation, because that's an easier fix. But it probably isn't.

 

[IUNorth]

Classic correlation/causation fallacy. It might be that he played better when he got more run. It might also be that he got more run in the games he played well.

The second explanation makes more sense, given how desperate we have been for shooting last year and this year.

I wish it was the first explanation, because that's an easier fix. But it probably isn't.

Could be in some of the games. Unless CJ has some sort of body language tell...I'm not sure a coach could get much of a read on whether he should play more from 1-2 minutes of playing time though. And outside a couple games, that's the amount of continuous time CJ usually got.

And again, a decent amount of those short stints happened while the game was still in doubt. Some were end of game situations where there were all scrubs in the game, but not "most".

There are physiological things about CJ's shot too that could cause him to need to be "warmed up" to be fully comfortable. Namely all of his shots are "jump shots"...even on stand still kickouts, part of his normal shot is to elevate quite a bit. Where as a guy like Mack, or Anthony Leal, they have more traditional set shots when they're spotup shooting...

I'd like CJ to earn more extended minutes of playing time, to see if he can become a more consistent shooter and scoring threat. Hope he's on the verge of doing that more regularly.

 

[ndhuntington]

This is where I blame Woodson you haven't defined roles for guys. Banks and Gunn both come in and if they don't do something amazing Woodson pulls them. All they need to do is play within the game let it come to them and play them with some starters so they don't feel as much pressure.

 

[birdforbogey]

Good stats. Anyone know how many 3s Bates had per minute? I swear he took a couple before he ever got his warmups off and the scorer blew the horn. Talk about a scorer’s mentality.

He must have mad.

 

[T.M.P.]

Classic correlation/causation fallacy.

You've never played basketball and it's telling. Most players need run to get rhythm ..

 

[Al Bino]

Could be in some of the games. Unless CJ has some sort of body language tell...I'm not sure a coach could get much of a read on whether he should play more from 1-2 minutes of playing time though. And outside a couple games, that's the amount of continuous time CJ usually got.

And again, a decent amount of those short stints happened while the game was still in doubt. Some were end of game situations where there were all scrubs in the game, but not "most".

There are physiological things about CJ's shot too that could cause him to need to be "warmed up" to be fully comfortable. Namely all of his shots are "jump shots"...even on stand still kickouts, part of his normal shot is to elevate quite a bit. Where as a guy like Mack, or Anthony Leal, they have more traditional set shots when they're spotup shooting...

I'd like CJ to earn more extended minutes of playing time, to see if he can become a more consistent shooter and scoring threat. Hope he's on the verge of doing that more regularly.

Do you think that he should try and just do a set shot when wide open or is it too late for that radical of a change and it could do more harm than good?

 

[FormerRevMatt]

You've never played basketball and it's telling. Most players need run to get rhythm ..

That's what made Vinnie Johnson amazing. Dude could hit shots the minute he checked into the game for the Pistons. No warmup required at all for The Microwave.

 

[bbafficionado]

One ok game and its like hes the man. Sorry, I remember all the other games all to well to jump on board yet. I hope he continues to get better for his sake and the teams. Sure would be an added benefit for him to build on this performance.