I have a major issue with your difficulty processing the post that you responded to.
Charges Issued In Breonna Taylor Case
- Thread starter MyTeamIsOnTheFloor
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I have a major issue with your difficulty processing the post that you responded to.
Yes .. and no.
I can't "prove" if it is true, but I was told by a very VERY liberal friend in the legal community here that the AG spent 3 days presenting evidence to the grand jury. They can maybe keep what was SAID in the room secret, but they can't hide the room, or the cars driven to/from the building, or the people who enter and leave. Thus, I tend to believe the AG did exactly what he said he did - presented all the evidence they had received/discovered about the event, and informed them of the statutory elements of the potential crimes, and let the grand jury decide who and what to charge.
Plus, Cameron also knows that someday the whole freaking transcript will probably get leaked - or even legally published through other means.
Plus, he has a DUTY not to lie in his job as AG, and has no real interest in doing so. If he wrongly "protects" 2 cops who later are shown to have NOT fired in self-defense, his career (political and otherwise) is over.
But mostly, the boyfriend - as noted above - had already been talking out of school and publicly admitted firing at the cops first. For some reason (money? sympathy? to get charges dismissed?) he and his lawyer elected to play the "I had a permit to carry my gun" card right out of the box, even though under Kentucky law, he no longer needed a permit - no one does. (That was one of those pesky legislative amendments I mentioned above.)
So it is no surprise that every piece of actual known evidence supports exactly what the AG said.
I understand that people WANT somebody to "pay" (be held "responsible") for Taylor's death. But under THE LAW, that appears to not be appropriate or possible. And if we are "a nation of laws, not men" - all of us entitled to equal protection and due process - then we have to live with the fact that the judge isn't gonna look at the 27 8-by-10 color glossy photographs of the crime, with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence. Every single long-time, prominent local criminal defense lawyer, white and African American and otherwise, left and right and otherwise, have all said the same thing - "if he shot first, absent evidence they lied to get the warrant, the cops can't be charged. If we want our clients treated fairly under the law, we have to treat the cops the same." And these are lawyers who probably PUKED at the thought of defending the police here. But they believe in THE LAW.
As do I.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
You certainly poo pooed any issue with it. I’d rank it as a highly offensive act and just about ensures most police will not be voting for her.I have a major issue with your difficulty processing the post that you responded to.
They are killed at a higher rate per capita and at a higher rate while in similar police interactions as white people. Seriously, take a few seconds to read details of the studies:
The research is clear: White people are not more likely than Black people to be killed by police.
When President Donald Trump responded to a question about Black people who have died at the hands of U.S. law enforcement by focusing his attention on white victims, he was engaging in a “grotesque” misdirection, says Matt Miller, a Northeastern professor who studies gun violence. “Black people...
news.northeastern.edu
Totally agree on Econ development but I don’t blame black people for fighting uneven policing, something that is also unfortunately part of their heritage.
yeah that's a good way to put it. i wasn't always a fan of obama's policies but i certainly appreciated "his way." he was always calm, always gave the impression his words were considered, and didn't rush to judgment during his time imo. i don't mind biden, and i'm not in the camp that his cognition is impaired because how the hell would i know, but i have seen enough of him lately to form the opinion that he looks like one of these guys that are getting really old. and it's just nature. fauci looks like he could run a marathon and work another 20 years. biden looks old as shit. so harris as vp and how she conducts herself carries more weight than it otherwise would imo.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
Oversimplified nonsense. There is a real debate to be had but this ain’t it. The real debate lies in whether AA populations are overpoliced compared to whites. AA shootings by police follow (slightly trail actually) the violent crime arrests by race.They are killed at a higher rate per capita and at a higher rate while in similar police interactions as white people. Seriously, take a few seconds to read details of the studies:
The research is clear: White people are not more likely than Black people to be killed by police.
When President Donald Trump responded to a question about Black people who have died at the hands of U.S. law enforcement by focusing his attention on white victims, he was engaging in a “grotesque” misdirection, says Matt Miller, a Northeastern professor who studies gun violence. “Black people...
Totally agree on Econ development but I don’t blame black people for fighting uneven policing, something that is also unfortunately part of their heritage.
I reviewed the PC transcript quickly, not word-for-word, but my take is that the SP, in practical effect, took the homicide charges off the table.....
Here's the quotes I saw that applied:
--"Our investigators found that Mattingly & Cosgrove were justified in their use of force".
--lawyers within our office....presented the findings of our independent investigation before a grand jury.
So....I read this to mean that the GJ was essentially told that a homicide charge would not fly.......now...I'm not saying that option was completely taken off the table...see the following quotes:
--"My role as the SP in the case was to provide the information and facts to the grand jury>
--...Our team walked through every homicide offense..."
--"We presented all of the information and they ultimately made the decision..."
So.....in their view they provided the facts and the relevant law to the jury. The findings I referred to above concerned the application of the facts to the relevant law, as it applied to Mattingly & Cosgrove. That was communicated to the GJ......So.....while I'm sure the GJ retained the option to charge M & C, they weren't going to do so given the findings made by the attorneys.
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yep.....spending tons & tons of $ on this without the threat of sanctions is just $ down the drain, as My Team pointed out. You can do both, but the threat of punishment at some point is essential..........
See, for example, how spending boatloads of $ in LA & Seattle has cured the homeless problem.........
I found the examples you gave of the consequences for these actions (illegal drug dealing) really interesting:
1) Lose your house
2) Lose your car
3) Be arrested
4) Pay $3,000.00
5) Lack of sympathy from family
Those seems like appropriate consequences for drug offenses. A "seeing justice served" wouldn't approve a no-knock warrant for your xanax selling "buddy". A "protect and serve" mindset wouldn't raid your painter cousin's house at 1AM and fire randomly into the residence.
What I'd suggest is that we reconsider why we think that was a good idea for Breonna Taylor's residence.
Yes.....more crime means more police, and more bad interactions, and more shootings in gross. Statistically, police are less prone to shoot violent AAs than violent whites.
Not sure how it doesn’t pertain. If I’m black then I am more likely to be killed than a white person engaged in the exact same activity. This is being proven. This is part of the problem.
Red Herring. I don't think either TD or I argued for the no knock warrants being the best way to handle this. I specifically said we need to revisit when we use them.
My point was that keeping company with unsavory individuals (Taylor) or maybe even partaking in unsavory behavior yourself (Floyd) can put you in a position to face unintended consequences.
Edit to add: And we need to revisit the idea that telling people this instead of turning them into martyrs is maybe one way we can reduce these interactions. Breonna may be as pure as the driven snow, but the company she kept endangered her life and ultimately was a factor in her death.
Based on your child-like perceptions of what constitutes unsavoryness? Lol. Tell us again how pot needs a better spokesman.
I respectfully disagree with your take on it. One person's "pandering" is another person's "addressing the needs of constituents." But, it's good to know that you're extremely anti-pandering. I'm assuming that you won't be voting for anyone this election. 🤷♂️
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Because the rest is data manipulation. Stick with the raw figures. 1004 killed. 235 black. 60% robberies 53% murder. 13% of the population. these statistics predict a much higher rate of blacks being killed than exists, particularly if there were systemic racism. Again, I believe, and know, racism exists, in so many of the areas you highlighted, but it's not here in any systemic way
This is another "fact" that the media have not been smart enough to ferret out.
The "rumor" has been that Taylor was allegedly fired from "a" unspecified job for allegedly stealing drugs. (Another "fact" not mentioned in the warrant or the AG report, so which I doubt.)
But she reportedly worked in 2 local ER's at 2 separate hospitals, so - using my employment law experience - I surmise that (assuming this report is accurate) at the time of her death she was employed at a company that provides nursing and medical staff to hospitals which don't want to directly employ "employees" anymore. (Same hospital bean counters who elect to NOT purchase and store sufficient PPE, just in case, you know, a pandemic or something else predictable occurs and they might need, you know, medical equipment. "Farm it out.")
Selling drugs is pretty unsavory. Getting high on fentanyl and going into the public, resisting arrest, all with a violent criminal past is unsavory. Sexually assaulting a girl who has a restraining order against you, then resisting arrest, all while holding or going for a knife is unsavory. Fleeing the cops and putting it on Facebook live (where you also posted video of you doing drive bys), getting out of the car, fleeing, and then shooting at the police is unsavory.
I don't know what world you live in, but the the things I mentioned above are "unsavory" to most people who are not idiots. The fact that you find them to be a-okay further cements where you stand.
Perhaps a discussion on which strain of weed provides the best high would be a topic that is more to your ability level. Maybe the OTF would be more to your speed.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
I guess I'm focused on what government's responsibility is. Certainly the company Taylor kept was a factor in her death, but I'm not particularly interested in being the arbiter of what company people should keep. I'm more interested in government having interactions that serves the interest of society as a whole.
So, it's not a red herring at all. It's actually the real point. You didn't contemplate that your xanax dealing "friend" (I keep putting it in quotation marks because I know you've said you don't have such a friend) would face consequences like this. I don't believe for a second that police would set up a no-knock warrant raid of a house at 1AM in the suburbs of Hamilton county for the kind of charges being brought here. That's a positive. I want that same positive in the circumstances around Breonna Taylor. Better policing would have approached this situation differently and produced a better outcome. That is government's responsibility...not telling 26-year olds the type of friends to have.
I predict that if the boyfriend ever has to testify under oath, he'll have a very bad day.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
im just disappointed that a smart guy like you has no real issue with an African American major candidate - who knows the law - pandering overtly to a population to perpetuate misinformation likely to continue a cycle of pain and suffering - all to get votes.
Fair enough.
However, if a known drug dealer lived in my neighborhood, I would want that person out. If it took a no knock warrant to have that happen, so be it.
So are people only shot and killed by police in the execution of robberies or murders? Which one was Philando Castile committing? Tamir Rice? I think we need to be more careful about what we say data says because the use of data to present a conclusion is all data "manipulation". I say that not pejoratively...just as an acceptance that we aren't directly measuring the conclusions being reached. And I say that fully aware that people claiming that data makes a different conclusion than the one you are supporting are doing the same kind of thing.
Data manipulation is a complicated thing and the data we have on this issue requires a lot of extrapolation across a easily distorted sample size. I'm not convinced that the data is able to measure the things that we'd like to measure. And I struggle with the concept that there is racial disparity is some aspects of policing but no racial disparity in the use of force (which I think is a decent summary of your position - please correct me if I have that wrong.) It's why I prefer calmer, more considered leaders (such as how you view President Obama) over bomb throwers in general.
The system isn’t perfect. But I don’t think a mob disagreement with a particular G.J decision is a reason to distrust it.
I don't think that's a fair characterization of the issue that mcm and I have been discussing. As I said previously, my view is that one person's pandering is another person's effective representation of constituents. I find it to be one of those political terms (such as "identity politics") that are lazily thrown around.
FWIW, I'm disappointed that a smart guy like you isn't going to be participating in the electoral process.
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it's cited for its predictive value. commit more crimes, particularly with a weapon, you're more likely to involve a shooting. that being said i don't think we need to go past the raw numbers. 1004 killed; 235 black. that's not a systemic issue
I agree. The system isn't perfect, but mob disagreement with a particular decision about a specific charter school is no reason to distrust it.
Appreciated, but the obvious response is that it's pretty obvious that it isn't necessary.
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
Is misleading constituents - especially when it causes suffering and potentially violence - an offense that you don’t take seriously?
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anon_mlxxvlbug9dpa
Guest
There are literally white offsets for all of those you named above - they just don’t make the national news.
Of course your point of data manipulation is of course fair and to be heeded. But in this overall discussion it is crystal clear to one side that something must be wrong with the data because it doesn’t support their narrative. And recognize I’m always on the side of justice. Castile is unforgivable. Rice is unforgivable. Shaver is unforgivable.
Those are only the "raw numbers" because you've decided that they are the numbers you like to reach the conclusion you've decided on. That's data manipulation because the "raw numbers" don't say specifically what you say they suggest.
And you conveniently gloss over the Castille and Rice examples because they exist outside of the data manipulation that you prefer. (and again I underline that I'm not using "manipulation" pejoratively)
1004 people were killed by cops. 235 were black. no manipulation. statistics. that's not racism. now how many do you think out of that 235 were unarmed or situations like taylor? maybe 5%? so maybe for an entire year out of tens of millions of contacts there are possibly 10 or 11 "questionable" deaths? and don't you think if there are 4x as many whites killed there are likely similar circumstances involving whites? again, racism exists; doubtless, but one has to stretch the living shit out of the numbers above to cry racism in these cop shooting cases.
It's possible that there are white offsets for all of those examples I mentioned and ones that I don't. Those would be data points to examine.
That said, the "sides" thing continues to be a problem for me. I'm not really into sides because I don't see the sides purity that you claim exists. I respect the heck out of you and mcm, but you're as committed to a narrative as anybody. And I continue to struggle with mcm's contention that there is racial disparity in policing outside of the use of force.
